Makaveli

The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

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4 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said:

No argument. 



I spent 3 min trying to come up with a witty response and realized the majority of the time was spent watching your sig.... 

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4 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Get the point but I think its totally the opposite.   Listening to different people who cover the team -- Dan and company are very concerned about the waning fan interest and that's the main reason why new people were hired to deal with it.   

 

The new stadium isn't happening for another 8 years and according to some, they are behind schedule -- the idea that the fans are losing interest now doesn't help their leverage at all if they want any state-city funding help.   

 

As an example, Bruce sold Richmond that they'd make up for the expense for training camp via fan spending in their city but that never materialized.   The team being on the wane with fan support is rotten luck for them as they pursue the stadium.

 

Declining TV ratings, stadium attendance, more apathy then anger = as some who cover the team have said this is the bottom-low point in Dan's tenure.

 

My guess is as fans we might never has as much leverage if we complain than we do now.  I won't get into it to protect people's privacy but I sent communication to the team about my beefs and I ended up getting a phone call about it (no it wasn't from Bruce but someone fairly high up) and I discussed it.  I shared the incident with someone here in a PM.  But yeah based on that conversation I don't think the reaction at Redskins Park is yawn when it comes to fan anger.    As Vinny himself said Dan really pays attention when the anger reaches his door step.   But yeah i don't think confining these complaints to a blog means anything on these points but if you hit up Redskins Park, yeah I do think they will notice.   I think letters are the strongest because its a hard copy and most noticeable 

 

For anyone wanting to have a go at it carpe diem.  I only think its in vein if hardly anyone does it. 

 

Am guessing the main minority owners email is this:

rothmanr@redskins.com

 

Email: washingtonredskinsfans@redskins.com (general)
Email: clubinfo@redskins.com (seats)

 

Daniel Snyder
Redskin Park
21300 Redskin Park Drive
Ashburn, VA 20147-6100

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“I think that the owner of the team isn’t always aware of everything,” Hernandez said Thursday morning. “We might assume it, but he’s not aware of everything that goes on. He doesn’t do social network stuff. He doesn’t have e-mail. So you’re talking about a guy who doesn’t see all of that.”

 

 

“How can he not have e-mail?” Eric Bickel interjected. “That’s impossible to believe.”

And indeed, it kind of is.

“No e-mail,” Hernandez said again. “He’s Howard Hughes, dude. He’s one of those guys.”

This still seemed too absurd to believe (sorry Chick), but a team spokesman confirmed to me that Snyder does not, in fact, have e-mail.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2014/08/28/daniel-snyder-doesnt-do-e-mail/?utm_term=.0a73e86c545e

 

As fans, we need to be careful what we demand. Remember the negative reaction to Jim Fassell?  He would’ve been a better choice than Zorn. 

 

Fans often don’t know the full story behind the scenes. We parse this info. together on message boards, etc.  But demanding changes without having all the info. doesn’t make any sense. 

 

It’d be interesting to get a take from other Execuitves around the league regarding the Skins. Bet Jay Gruden’s held in higher regard than he is by this fan base.  Not so sure about Allen.

 

We’re a lot better off with this crew in charge than with Vinny / Zorn.

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Being better than Vinny or Zorn isn't some accolade worth mention. We've simply gone from making imbecilic choices to making poor ones.

 

Yes, our situation could get worse but at the end of the day it's all about winning a Super Bowl not just improving our standing and being capped short of the ultimate prize. Bruce isn't capable of building a winner and Jay isn't capable of coaching men into one, so in that regard they're equal to their predecessors and should be equally condemned.

Edited by BurgundyBooger
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2 hours ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

As fans, we need to be careful what we demand. Remember the negative reaction to Jim Fassell?  He would’ve been a better choice than Zorn. 

 

Fans often don’t know the full story behind the scenes. We parse this info. together on message boards, etc.  But demanding changes without having all the info. doesn’t make any sense. 

 

It’d be interesting to get a take from other Execuitves around the league regarding the Skins. Bet Jay Gruden’s held in higher regard than he is by this fan base.  Not so sure about Allen.

 

We’re a lot better off with this crew in charge than with Vinny / Zorn.

That's true, this organization's probably brilliant and us dumb fans don't have all the info to realize it.

 

We better just be thankful for the crapshow we have, because if we change it, the geniuses in charge might make it worse.

 

I get it now.

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2 hours ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

As fans, we need to be careful what we demand. Remember the negative reaction to Jim Fassell?  He would’ve been a better choice than Zorn. 

 

Fans often don’t know the full story behind the scenes. We parse this info. together on message boards, etc.  But demanding changes without having all the info. doesn’t make any sense. 

 

It’d be interesting to get a take from other Execuitves around the league regarding the Skins. Bet Jay Gruden’s held in higher regard than he is by this fan base.  Not so sure about Allen.

 

We’re a lot better off with this crew in charge than with Vinny / Zorn.

Bruce was already rated and voted the worst guy in the NFL when it comes to players' negotiations and one of the least ready when it comes to contract neotiations as well.

 

Honestly, even if Dan was picking his replacment randomly, there's almost 0% chances he get somebody that will look less classy.

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9 hours ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

As fans, we need to be careful what we demand. Remember the negative reaction to Jim Fassell?  He would’ve been a better choice than Zorn. 

 

Fans often don’t know the full story behind the scenes. We parse this info. together on message boards, etc.  But demanding changes without having all the info. doesn’t make any sense. 

 

It’d be interesting to get a take from other Execuitves around the league regarding the Skins. Bet Jay Gruden’s held in higher regard than he is by this fan base.  Not so sure about Allen.

 

We’re a lot better off with this crew in charge than with Vinny / Zorn.

 

As for Jay, I agree with the point.  I've not complained about him to the team.  IMO they could easily do worse than Jay (and I think he's a good guy) albeit I understand the people here who want to make change on that front.

 

But I think most of us agree that Bruce is a problem.  As for Bruce perhaps being secretly really good at his job and we just don't know it:

 

His total record stinks and is worst on that front than Vinny

Agents have labeled him the most untrustworthy GM in the league

 In the negotiations with the predecessor QB he was singled out routinely as the only dude who was a douche in those negotiations according to multiple beat guys 

Colleagues that have worked with him before have singled out his being arrogant and a jerk and not a real personnel guy

Tampa's media called him the Prince of Darkness

He makes bad misstatements publicly -- and that's just in a small sample, imagine if he talked more?

The press release he read in the 2017 summer was lampooned and rightfully so around the league

He's a punch line around the league including with other NFC East reporters, draft geeks, national web sites, TV shows.  

According to multiple sources he shepherded the PR nightmare of the Foster move

He had the opportunity to replace Scot with another personnel guy but didn't do it -- with his friend Cooley saying he will never voluntarily give up personnel power to anyone

Now we got the him meddling with Jay and his lineup

Continually ranked in surveys by NFL pundits who sometimes cite personnel people for their opinion as the worst GM in the league or one of the worst 5 at best

 

I can go on.   Now can Dan do even worse?    Not sure but I doubt it.  But if he can figure out how to top the dude who most consider both the worst NFL in the league and biggest douche among them by sinking even lower and finding someone even worse -- then we are even more hopeless than it looks.    I'd be more than willing to take my chances especially considering we got potentially two good candidates in house who seem both competent and nice people.
 

Edited by Skinsinparadise
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16 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

I can go on.   Now can Dan do even worse?    Not sure but I doubt it.  But if he can figure out how to top the dude who most consider both the worst NFL in the league and biggest douche among them by sinking even lower and finding someone even worse -- then we are even more hopeless than it looks.    I'd be more than willing to take my chances especially considering we got potentially two good candidates in house who seem both competent and nice people.
 

Even if Dan could do worse... should the Redskins settle for awful? I mean what's the worst that can happen? Terrible?

 

Bruce Allen's ten year record is awful. His rep with those he needs to be in business with (if we are to believe reports) is awful. His ability to keep up out of cap hell is fine, but even that's on the hook now because of the guarantees and uncertainty revolving around Smith.

 

Sports is supposed to be about three things: Fun, excellence, and escape.

 

I don't think Bruce Allen as president has provided Redskins fans with enough fun moments, enough excellence, and enough escape from their own realities.  Mind you, he has made too many fans want to escape being season ticket holders or escape their fandom altogether... but that's not the escape we fans are looking for.

Edited by Burgold
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9 hours ago, Andre The Giant said:

 

As fans, we need to be careful what we demand. Remember the negative reaction to Jim Fassell?  He would’ve been a better choice than Zorn. 

 

Fans often don’t know the full story behind the scenes. We parse this info. together on message boards, etc.  But demanding changes without having all the info. doesn’t make any sense. 

 

It’d be interesting to get a take from other Execuitves around the league regarding the Skins. Bet Jay Gruden’s held in higher regard than he is by this fan base.  Not so sure about Allen.

 

We’re a lot better off with this crew in charge than with Vinny / Zorn.

 

 

Bad coaches and front office people likely are held in higher regard around the league very frequently because its a network.  Jay doesn't pass the eyeball test to me.  Fundamentally he makes decisions that I (the layman football fan) look at and can see it does not make sense.  That's got nothing to do with the level of regard he's held in.  I don't want us to hire, or retain, a coach simply because other people around the league think he's a good guy.  I want a coach who is going to win football games.  I want a coach who is going to be smarter than a bunch of fans on a message board regarding play calling, clock management, and personnel decisions during the game.  My frustration on Jay is based on his coaching level and the fact that 5 years into it he's making the same 'mistakes' regarding these 3 things as a rookie HC would do.  

 

As others have said, Bruce is the major problem.  He's the root of this thing, that's not lost... the issue is that Jay (after this season) has 2 years left on his deal.  If you're going to move on from Bruce, you have to let your new GM hire his coach.... You also run into a situation with Alex's contract and the residual carryover that likely is going to make next year a very bad year.... So, to fire Bruce, and retain Gruden KNOWING that next season is going to be a bad season, likely to have him removed ANYWAY because you likely dont extend him and the rule of thumb is to never have your coach in place for a lame duck season (he'd be going into the final year of his deal in 2020).  It makes the most sense to have your GM bring in your new HC PRIOR to the draft in April, so they can decide whether the QB of the future is there or not... if not, that's fine, the 2020 draft class is looking like it's going to be a good one regarding top end QB talent.  Then next season you let your new GM and new HC evaluate the roster and see what direction they want to go in.  Keeping Jay here for a down season only to let him go after next year would be a waste.  

 

 

Bruce and jay are tied together.  Bruce on his 3rd HC, 2 of which are HOF.  Jay on his 3rd DC, NONE of which are HC.  1 legit player evaluating GM, and a defeated, and frankly destroyed, fanbase... it's time to do something different.  Rooting for 8-8 is what the Bengals and Lions do.  We're the Redskins.... 

Edited by OVCChairman

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4 hours ago, OVCChairman said:

Rooting for 8-8 is what the Bengals and Lions do.  We're the Redskins.... 

 

One quibble...that's really the same thing. Hold yourself to a higher standard if you want, but the reality is that we aren't much different. We had an oasis of about 11 years with Beathard and Gibbs, but beyond that we are mediocre as an organization. If you remove those two men from our history, we are the Lions. Both teams had some pre-Super Bowl era titles (ours were in the 30s and 40s while theirs spanned into the 50s). Even the overall record isn't night and day. Removing that Gibbs era, we are about 60 games under .500 while they are about 100. 

 

Now, I understand erasing a decade is unfair...but it goes to show that what we believe is a proud, storied franchise of winning is basically one era that has propped up a 70ish years of mediocrity. 

 

By all means we are welcome to expect greatness...but there really isn't any reason to turn our noses up at other similar organizations. It's been 25 years since we've done anything more than sneak into the divisional round of the NFC playoffs. 

 

Edit for one more sobering fact...

 

It's now been equally long between our last Super Bowl appearance (1991) and present day than it was between our last pre-Super Bowl era championship appearance (1945) and the team's first modern era Super Bowl appearance (1972). So, if we lose another game during this season we will have set a record for the longest championship game drought in the 86 year history of the Boston/Washington Braves/Redskins,

 

 

Edited by TD_washingtonredskins
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One only needs to look at stable and successful franchises and compare them to what we have and have had, for the last 19 years.  The team is owned by a football fan, not a football person.  He could have gone 2 ways, hire football people to run the franchise and get out of the way, or treat it like Madden and try to run it himself.  We all know what he did and how it panned out.  Honestly, I doubt any non-football person could have done worse. 

 

For whatever reason, Dan is unwilling to admit that his way has been an epic failure by any measurables.   We are rapidly heading into Browns territory with no one at the switch.  He does not realize the damage that he's done to the fan base and the impact it will have going forward if the trend continues.  All of this chatter about a new stadium is just to distract from the abysmal failure that he needs to own.  Oh look, blinky lights and shiny objects.....

 

I've been a Redskins fan since 1969 or 1970 and I have never been this sad about the team as I am now.  Sure, getting crushed by the Raiders in the SB was terrible and losing ST21 was a nut punch that lives on, but I almost mockingly laugh when I think about turning on the game.  I certainly don't look forward to blocking out 3 hours for the game like I used to.

 

Thanks Dan

 

 

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2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for Jay, I agree with the point.  I've not complained about him to the team.  IMO they could easily do worse than Jay (and I think he's a good guy) albeit I understand the people here who want to make change on that front.

 

But I think most of us agree that Bruce is a problem.  As for Bruce perhaps being secretly really good at his job and we just don't know it:

 

His total record stinks and is worst on that front than Vinny

Agents have labeled him the most untrustworthy GM in the league

 In the negotiations with the predecessor QB he was singled out routinely as the only dude who was a douche in those negotiations according to multiple beat guys 

Colleagues that have worked with him before have singled out his being arrogant and a jerk and not a real personnel guy

Tampa's media called him the Prince of Darkness

He makes bad misstatements publicly -- and that's just in a small sample, imagine if he talked more?

The press release he read in the 2017 summer was lampooned and rightfully so around the league

He's a punch line around the league including with other NFC East reporters, draft geeks, national web sites, TV shows.  

According to multiple sources he shepherded the PR nightmare of the Foster move

He had the opportunity to replace Scot with another personnel guy but didn't do it -- with his friend Cooley saying he will never voluntarily give up personnel power to anyone

Now we got the him meddling with Jay and his lineup

Continually ranked in surveys by NFL pundits who sometimes cite personnel people for their opinion as the worst GM in the league or one of the worst 5 at best

 

I can go on.   Now can Dan do even worse?    Not sure but I doubt it.  But if he can figure out how to top the dude who most consider both the worst NFL in the league and biggest douche among them by sinking even lower and finding someone even worse -- then we are even more hopeless than it looks.    I'd be more than willing to take my chances especially considering we got potentially two good candidates in house who seem both competent and nice people.
 

I don’t think Jay deserves to be fired sitting at 7-7 with all of the key injuries we’ve had.  The team keeps playing hard. Many outside observers are pretty surprised the Skins are hanging in there the way they have. Jay deserves credit. 

 

Bruce is a different story.  He’s been here a long time without developing a consistent winner. That said, he’s overseen some strong moves: 

 

- Investing in the lines. Allen, Payne, Scherff, Moses, etc. are all good picks. 

 

- Trading for Alex Smith. I didn’t love this move. Wanted them to resign Cousins. But I have to say, prior to him getting hurt, it was starting to work. Cousins doesn’t look like a world beater in Minneapolis. Bruce was right not to pay him in 2018. The .org blew it in 2015, but we still don’t know who’s fault that ultimately was.  I read Snyder didn’t want to do it because he didn’t want Shanny to be right. 

 

There’s been a litany of bad moves too. But it’s been enough of a mixed bag to provide deep consideration before making a change. And it shouldn’t be done just because the fans are impatient and upset with injuries that would derail any season. 

Edited by Andre The Giant

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I suspect we win the last game against the Eagles, finish out 8-8, miss the playoffs and Bruce retains his job, along with Jay.  

 

Its interesting that when Bruce got here, we were putting 88k fans a game in the seats.  This season, it was 60k a game.  I suspect if Bruce stays next year will be more like 55k, which for the first time ever, would be the lowest attendance in the NFL.  Bruce Allen is literally costing Snyder $3.3 million per game in just ticket revenue, and Snyder cant see it.

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20 minutes ago, Andre The Giant said:

I don’t think Jay deserves to be fired sitting at 7-7 with all of the key injuries we’ve had.  The team keeps playing hard. Many outside observers are pretty surprised the Skins are hanging in there the way they have. Jay deserves credit. 

....

 

There’s been a litany of bad moves too. But it’s been enough of a mixed bag to provide deep consideration before making a change. And it shouldn’t be done just because the fans are inpatient and upset with injuries that would derail any season. 

Why is it that people keep pretending that Jay is not responsible for injuries?  How much do people want to just believe in some random curse, or the worst luck any head coach has ever had?  At what point do people start pointing the finger at the guy who is literally responsible for the training staff, for training procedures, for practices, and the like?

 

I get saying 1 year is a fluke.  I get saying 2 years in a row is really terrible luck.  But after 3 years only a crazy person would say it isnt a trend, and at 4 years in a row theres no rational way to say our injuries are anything other than a direct reflection of something going on in the organization, and correctable.

 

Because 2014, the year Gruden took over, was the last year we had a healthy team.  For 4 years straight, the past 4 years, the Redskins have either led the league in injuries, or been in the top 5 most injured teams.  4 years in a row.  This year ISNT special.  This isnt unique.  This is what happens when you have Jay Gruden as coach.

 

The Cowboys have 125 AGL to our 135 this year, but will win the division, and didnt get blown out by the Giants in the most humiliating half of football in Redskins history.  And didnt get blown out by the Saints, but beat them.  Their injuries have also been exactly equal in the quality of the player injured.

Edited by Peregrine

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2 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Why is it that people keep pretending that Jay is not responsible for injuries?  How much do people want to just believe in some random curse, or the worst luck any head coach has ever had?  At what point do people start pointing the finger at the guy who is literally responsible for the training staff, for training procedures, for practices, and the like?

 

I get saying 1 year is a fluke.  I get saying 2 years in a row is really terrible luck.  But after 3 years only a crazy person would say it isnt a trend, and at 4 years in a row theres no rational way to say our injuries are anything other than a direct reflection of something going on in the organization, and correctable.

 

Because 2014, the year Gruden took over, was the last year we had a healthy team.  For 4 years straight, the past 4 years, the Redskins have either led the league in injuries, or been in the top 5 most injured teams.  4 years in a row.  This year ISNT special.  This isnt unique.  This is what happens when you have Jay Gruden as coach.

 

The Cowboys have 125 AGL to our 135 this year, but will win the division, and didnt get blown out by the Giants in the most humiliating half of football in Redskins history.  And didnt get blown out by the Saints, but beat them.  Their injuries have also been exactly equal in the quality of the player injured.

 

Assuming Jay is responsible for injuries seems irrational. 

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25 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

I suspect we win the last game against the Eagles, finish out 8-8, miss the playoffs and Bruce retains his job, along with Jay.  

 

Its interesting that when Bruce got here, we were putting 88k fans a game in the seats.  This season, it was 60k a game.  I suspect if Bruce stays next year will be more like 55k, which for the first time ever, would be the lowest attendance in the NFL.  Bruce Allen is literally costing Snyder $3.3 million per game in just ticket revenue, and Snyder cant see it.

 

Good. Anything to cause Snyder pain. I'm all for it. 

 

Sell the damn team.

Edited by bird_1972
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17 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Why is it that people keep pretending that Jay is not responsible for injuries?  How much do people want to just believe in some random curse, or the worst luck any head coach has ever had?  At what point do people start pointing the finger at the guy who is literally responsible for the training staff, for training procedures, for practices, and the like?

 

 

Couldn't it be that the general manager and roster creators have a reliance on on injury prone players?

 

Chris Thompson.

Jordan Reed.

Trent Williams.

Jamison Crowder.

Colt McCoy. 

Morgan Moses.

Shaun Lauvao. 

Quinton Dunbar.

Josh Doctson. (healthy this year)

 

New to us but have injury histories... although perhaps nothing to write home about.

Paul Richardson. 

Alex Smith.

 

10/22 of your starters are injury prone. 45% of your starting talent has missed significant time in the last few seasons.

 

That seems astronomically high, doesn't it? 

 

 

 

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@KDawg - good post!

 

To let the ORGANIZATION off the hook for injuries would be a mistake. We've hitched our wagon and drafted/signed/extended a group of people who have been known to struggle staying healthy. However, unless you believe that the COACH is a huge voice in the room, then it's OK to give him a break, in my opinion. 

 

The only injuries that I wouldn't fault the team for are Smith and Guice. And, in some ways, the Guice injury hasn't hurt on the field yet because Peterson has done just as well as we could have reasonably expected a rookie to do. 

 

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2 hours ago, sempre_victrix said:

  All of this chatter about a new stadium is just to distract from the abysmal failure that he needs to own.  Oh look, blinky lights and shiny objects.....

 

I've been a Redskins fan since 1969 or 1970 and I have never been this sad about the team as I am now.  Sure, getting crushed by the Raiders in the SB was terrible and losing ST21 was a nut punch that lives on, but I almost mockingly laugh when I think about turning on the game.  I certainly don't look forward to blocking out 3 hours for the game like I used to.

 

Thanks Dan

 

 

Why does he think a new stadium helps?  99% of Skins fans have never been anywhere near Fed X field and 99% will never be anywhere near the new stadium.  My family has been a fan since 1971 or so. I've been to one home game (2006) and one away game in Pittsburgh (1997).  It aint' about the stadium Dan.

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1 hour ago, KDawg said:

 

Couldn't it be that the general manager and roster creators have a reliance on on injury prone players?

 

Chris Thompson.

Jordan Reed.

Trent Williams.

Jamison Crowder.

Colt McCoy. 

Morgan Moses.

Shaun Lauvao. 

Quinton Dunbar.

Josh Doctson. (healthy this year)

 

New to us but have injury histories... although perhaps nothing to write home about.

Paul Richardson. 

Alex Smith.

 

10/22 of your starters are injury prone. 45% of your starting talent has missed significant time in the last few seasons.

 

That seems astronomically high, doesn't it? 

 

 

 

 

Spot on!!  People want to blame Jay (they tend to be people wanting to blame Jay for everything, including if it rains on Sundays) and the training staff for injuries when the real place for blame is the roster construction - which we know is owned by Bruce, and the horrendous facilities - which we know is dan. 

 

There are cerainly things that you can blame Jay for. But injuries is just not one of them. 

3 minutes ago, Fat Stupid Loser said:

Why does he think a new stadium helps?  99% of Skins fans have never been anywhere near Fed X field and 99% will never be anywhere near the new stadium.  My family has been a fan since 1971 or so. I've been to one home game (2006) and one away game in Pittsburgh (1997).  It aint' about the stadium Dan.

 

In fairness a new stadium will attract some fans - including many new ones. And stadium attendance is a decent barometer of how the fans feel about the team. So he will get a quick boost - at least in his own mind.

 

However, if he puts the same **** on the field he has for the last 20 yrs, that will a very short lived bump. Then he will have pretty new stadium that is mostly empty on Sundays. 

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26 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Spot on!!  People want to blame Jay (they tend to be people wanting to blame Jay for everything, including if it rains on Sundays) and the training staff for injuries when the real place for blame is the roster construction - which we know is owned by Bruce, and the horrendous facilities - which we know is dan. 

 

There are cerainly things that you can blame Jay for. But injuries is just not one of them. 

I’m pinning it on Morgan Moses.  I don’t think it’s a coincidence he’s the only member of the 2014 draft still on the team...

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1 hour ago, goskins10 said:

 

However, if he puts the same **** on the field he has for the last 20 yrs, that will a very short lived bump. Then he will have pretty new stadium that is mostly empty on Sundays. 

 

And then hopefully he will have to sell :)

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I'm not buying it that nobody will want the job, we may need to dig deep and look at a younger more unproven coaching talent but I wish that we would do that anyway.

 

The last thing I would want is McCarthy or one of these other old retread coaches.

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