The Bruce Allen/GM Thread

[Reaper Skins]

[goskins10]

46 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Eh, maybe the older fans love Doug.  And maybe I'm biased because of my love for the Orioles and baseball in general, but I've never gotten the "Doug is a Skins legend" aura about him.  He started 17 games total for the Skins and had that amazing game in the Superbowl.  But so did Timmy Smith.  

 

That's probably fair. Not sure if you were able to see the 1987 SB when it happened. If not, I can get him not being in that legend status. But for me, that game, and especially the Q (35 pts in 18 plays), is etched into my memory as one of the most exciting times in football. And he was not only a part of it. he was the maestro. 

 

I will say equating him and Timmy Smith together is probably not a good comparison - even if it's just the SB. Timmy Smith literally did nothing before or after that one game. Doug was a big part of how the team got to the SB. Also, Doug has been a good ex-Redskin. He is a bigger than life person when you meet him. Very personable and well respected within the football community, not just for what he did in Wash, but his time in Tampa Bay. He took a beating over there but still got them to a conference championship. 

 

Overall Doug has done a lot for football, both on and off the field. So for me it's the entire package. But again, if you did not live through that time I can totally get not having the same feelings. 

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

1 hour ago, DJHJR86 said:

 

Eh, maybe the older fans love Doug.  And maybe I'm biased because of my love for the Orioles and baseball in general, but I've never gotten the "Doug is a Skins legend" aura about him.  He started 17 games total for the Skins and had that amazing game in the Superbowl.  But so did Timmy Smith.  

That’s the first Super Bowl that I can vividly remember and I’m 38.  Growing up in PG County in the 80’s, Doug being the first black QB to win a Super Bowl was a huge deal.  Especially in the fashion he did it, going out of the game down 10-0, to come back and score 42 unanswered.

 

That said, his performance as a player for that game doesn’t buy goodwill with me for his performance as a football executive.  Perhaps his presence really does contribute positively to the FO, I don’t really know. But nothing about his history in that realm has made me a believer.  I’ll always believe he was put there because bad news is easier to digest from a Super Bowl champion than it is a career loser.

[DJHJR86]

20 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

Not sure if you were able to see the 1987 SB when it happened. If not, I can get him not being in that legend status.

 

Nope, I was 1 at the time.  I think that's why I've never been able to relate to him as a player.  

3 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

Growing up in PG County in the 80’s, Doug being the first black QB to win a Super Bowl was a huge deal.  Especially in the fashion he did it, going out of the game down 10-0, to come back and score 42 unanswered.

 

I know this is a huge deal.  I just think it means more for the game and black people in general than it did for the Redskins organization.

[OVCChairman]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

That’s the first Super Bowl that I can vividly remember and I’m 38.  Growing up in PG County in the 80’s, Doug being the first black QB to win a Super Bowl was a huge deal.  Especially in the fashion he did it, going out of the game down 10-0, to come back and score 42 unanswered.

 

That said, his performance as a player for that game doesn’t buy goodwill with me for his performance as a football executive.  Perhaps his presence really does contribute positively to the FO, I don’t really know. But nothing about his history in that realm has made me a believer.  I’ll always believe he was put there because bad news is easier to digest from a Super Bowl champion than it is a career loser.

 

 

This is where I've come to.  Doug was brought in to be a bullet sponge and absorb everything so that Dan and Bruce dont ever have it cross their desk.  They make the decisions and he acts as a filter to prevent the truly difficult questions from ever having to be answered.  

[Wildbunny]

3 minutes ago, OVCChairman said:

 

 

This is where I've come to.  Doug was brought in to be a bullet sponge and absorb everything so that Dan and Bruce dont ever have it cross their desk.  They make the decisions and he acts as a filter to prevent the truly difficult questions from ever having to be answered.  

 

If that's why they gave him the job, then they are even more pityful human being that I ever thought.

Doug deserves way better than that.

[OVCChairman]

Just now, Wildbunny said:

 

If that's why they gave him the job, then they are even more pityful human being that I ever thought.

Doug deserves way better than that.

 

 

I absolutely agree, but looking at this franchise I can't for the life of me come up with any other reasoning to even bring him on.   Dan refuses to talk to the media anymore, Bruce is only in front of the camera when he doesn't have a choice.  Nothing he speaks toward anymore is team related, and he's the top official at the team.  He had one little video where he 'appeared' to be watching film in his office and Alex Smith stopped in and shook his hand.  It was one of the most awkward things I've ever witnessed and looked as staged as anything I've ever watched.  They know they're messing up and they're tired of getting blasted for it, so instead they trot Doug out there with a prepared statement and let him take on the media.  

[Skinsinparadise]

The NFL Am crew, probably the most sunny NFL show on air and typically positive about the Redskins -- this morning Schaffer goes about how the signing is viewed by some as "disgusting" its a weird week for the Redskins that might end up being a distraction on MNF -- and no one now is wishing success for the Redskins aside from Redskins fans.

 

 

Brewer column, new one

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/redskins/benefit-of-the-doubt-redskins-havent-earned-it-especially-after-reuben-foster/2018/11/29/06c03632-f40b-11e8-80d0-f7e1948d55f4_story.html?utm_term=.3ff2a913b20b

Let’s talk about benefit of the doubt for a moment. It seems the Washington Redskins and their blind loyalists — yes, they still have them, and the franchise should pray twice a day that those people remain so faithful — are pouting because constant distrust burdens the franchise. They can’t even make a waiver claim on a linebacker arrested three times in 2018 without being judged. Bless their victimized little hearts.

 

You want benefit of the doubt? Understand this about that kind of grace: Those who receive it have done something to earn it. Those who receive it have track records of success, good deeds, good intentions, sincere business dealings. Does that sound like this organization since Daniel Snyder took ownership in 1999? Don’t assume benefit of the doubt is a right and for darn sure don’t demand it.

 

...This franchise has a trust problem. The amazing thing, however, is that hope has rarely been a problem. Despite 19 years of controversy after controversy on Snyder’s watch, despite 10 losing seasons and just five playoff appearances under him, despite nine years of letting Bruce Allen infect the organization, despite failing to exceed 10 victories and failing to make back-to-back postseason appearances since 1992, the fan base has kept buying into new reasons for hope. There’s always a Robert Griffin III or Mike Shanahan or Scot McCloughan who makes people hit the reset button, stuff bad history into a corner and expect something different, something better.

 

The positive vibe lasts for a while. Then it gets crushed. It shouldn’t come back for more, but it does. We often highlight the signs of erosion — declining attendance and anecdotal evidence of diminished passion — but the truth is that weaker fan bases couldn’t persist through two decades of such misery. The damage could be a lot worse. The resilient support should be reason to do right by the fans, not use them and insult their intelligence.

Benefit of the doubt? The Redskins don’t get roasted regularly because it’s popular to roast the Redskins. They get roasted because they won’t stop being the most repugnant version of themselves.

[Captain James]

I remember when the NFL was just about playing football. That was cool.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

We've only had 10 losing seasons in Snyder's 19 years? That's actually shocking. I checked and that's true. 

[goskins10]

21 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Edit

 

failing to make back-to-back postseason appearances since 1992, the fan base has kept buying into new reasons for hope. There’s always a Robert Griffin III or Mike Shanahan or Scot McCloughan who makes people hit the reset button, stuff bad history into a corner and expect something different, something better.

 

Edit

 

I agree with everything he stated except the bold. I do not think most of the fan base is that naive to "expect" something different. I believe the fans more hope for something different. After all, this is their team. The team they follow and support. Right now hope is really all we have. 

 

Anyone that is seriously out there "expecting" something different, has just not been paying attention. There is nothing to suggest anything will significantly change in a positive way as long as Dan Snyder owns the team. 

 

Every time you start thinking, hoping that the team is turning some kind of corner, they do something dumb ass, like signing a guy with all kinds of legal problems, that are still not even resolved! he gets arrested on a Saturday and his punishment is he gets picked up off waivers so he continues to get paid!  

 

Good article here on the exempt list BTW. .https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/11/29/nfl-commissioners-exempt-list-reuben-foster-washington-redskins-domestic-violence-charges-arrest

 

Here is why you don't sign someone like Foster. From the article: 

"Washington claiming Foster shows the organization values winning over people. I’m a believer in second chances, and I’m also a believer in due process. But this list provides a safe haven for both the player and team that should be cut out."

[Dissident2]

So, seeing as we're back in collapse mode both on and off the field, who should we fire, Gary Oldman? 

 

 

[Morneblade]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

He might have been with the implication that Lafemina is out the door and an emphasis as this incident as the backdrop  I do think its certainly possible that Lafemina leaves because the FO makes his job impossible and like Thom I also didn't agree with the signing.   But to me I see this as another log in the fire as for bad PR moves -- not sure this one as definitive as he does -- but its just the death by 1000 cuts way they go about their business and the signing is another cut.  Thom somewhat says the same thing but I think he a bit overemphasizes this event - though I do agree with him that the event certainly wasn't a good look.  

 

The point about Dan and the PR-image of the team I agree 100%.  Some people argue it doesn't matter and or they will recover from this.  And yeah they ultimately recover from everything they do but I agree with Thom that each misstep sinks them deeper with the more casual fans who aren't showing up to the stadium in the same way or even tuning into the games on TV the same way.  And the team is no longer the 2nd most valuable franchise in the NFL and continues to slowly slide behind other teams. 

 

I disagree with the bolded section.

 

No, they have not recovered. Look at the stands. Look at how the franchise is falling behind other teams that it was once far and away more valuable. Even lifetime fans like myself, are just about at wits end with this team. Many have already done so. Many others are closer than they ever have been. Potential fans are completely turned off by the organization. Not only do they suck on the field, it's a very hard organization to like. It's shady, underhanded, completely mismanaged, and just plain creepy. For a young person in the area, there is literally nothing to get behind.

 

Is the team good? No.

Do they seem like a well run organization that could get better? No

Do they seem to be, at the very least, well intentioned? No

Ok, do they at least seem to be honest and decent people running the show? No.

 

What is there to get behind? Unless you have a huge history with the team, that goes back to when all these things were true, and you're really just holding on to that? That's really about it. Nothing for a young fan to get behind.

 

The team isn't recovering. It's a slow death, that quite bluntly, they are doing everything they can to make happen.

[TD_washingtonredskins]

@Morneblade I don't agree with you on some things and I'm not where you are when it comes to the organization. But, I have to admit that I think you characterized how a great deal of fans feel in that post above. Well done. 

 

And, as for myself, I think I'm torn between what my head tells me and an issue I've had my whole life...trying to give things and people I care about the benefit of the doubt. So, intellectually I think I'm much closer to your stance than I'm ready to admit - hahaha

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

2 minutes ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

And, as for myself, I think I'm torn between what my head tells me and an issue I've had my whole life...trying to give things and people I care about the benefit of the doubt.

No disrespect intended at all, but this is how I perceive your posts.  The Skins are like family to you and you’re that uncle anyone can call on.  The Skins are like family to me too, only I’m the uncle that tells everyone he’s broke and doesn’t have time for anymore shenanigans.

[Peregrine]

17 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

I disagree with the bolded section.

 

No, they have not recovered. Look at the stands. Look at how the franchise is falling behind other teams that it was once far and away more valuable. Even lifetime fans like myself, are just about at wits end with this team. Many have already done so. Many others are closer than they ever have been. Potential fans are completely turned off by the organization. Not only do they suck on the field, it's a very hard organization to like. It's shady, underhanded, completely mismanaged, and just plain creepy. For a young person in the area, there is literally nothing to get behind.

 

Is the team good? No.

Do they seem like a well run organization that could get better? No

Do they seem to be, at the very least, well intentioned? No

Ok, do they at least seem to be honest and decent people running the show? No.

 

What is there to get behind? Unless you have a huge history with the team, that goes back to when all these things were true, and you're really just holding on to that? That's really about it. Nothing for a young fan to get behind.

 

The team isn't recovering. It's a slow death, that quite bluntly, they are doing everything they can to make happen.

I agree with that, after 2 decades its finally caught up to Dan.  If this continues he will almost be forced to sell, or lose money, as hes finally driven a once proud fanbase to apathy.  I just checked the attendance figures(and I assume merchandise sales match this), and instead of being in the top 5 in attendance as we were just years ago, the Redskins this year hit a shocking number: 26th in NFL attendance.  Even worse?  Selling only 74% of home tickets, the WORST in the league.  In fact, its the worst its been for ANY NFL team(not counting last years move for the Rams) in the past 8 seasons.

 

Next year I could see it hitting the 65-70% mark which would be unheard of in the NFL, until Snyder removes a bunch more seats and pretends he did it to enhance the "gameday experience".

[Morneblade]

1 hour ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

@Morneblade I don't agree with you on some things and I'm not where you are when it comes to the organization. But, I have to admit that I think you characterized how a great deal of fans feel in that post above. Well done. 

 

And, as for myself, I think I'm torn between what my head tells me and an issue I've had my whole life...trying to give things and people I care about the benefit of the doubt. So, intellectually I think I'm much closer to your stance than I'm ready to admit - hahaha

 

First off, thank you. We don't always see eye to eye on some recent points, but I highly respect you. And we have agreed on more things than not over the years.

 

For me, the last couple of decades have been a tough pill to swallow.

 

I became a fan in the mid 70's. I had just moved to the area from Tennessee (at age 5), and for me there was a lot to like about the team. I liked the hard working, blue collar feel of the team, the "Over the Hill Gang", a bunch of cast offs that no one else wanted, spoke to me. I'm part Seminole, so the Redskins vs Cowboys angle meant something to me to (and no, "Redskin" is not offensive to me, it's a term that Native Americans came up with to describe themselves and it was not derogatory). And, there was a "classiness" to the organization. It was well run, organized and you always at least felt like the people running it were not pond scum.

 

We get into the 80's and it just gets better. The team is dominate, lots of feel good stories, and the same class organization.

 

The last 2 decades, any of that has been few and far between, starting with how the actual sale to Dan Snyder went down. As you mention, intellectually, I can't support much that has done on the last 20 years. And the memory of once was fades more and more everyday. There will be a day when I just stop being a fan. I know that Snyder will not change, and that the organization, because of that, will never get better. I just don't know when that day will be yet, or what "move" will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

 

Honestly, I'm not sure how Snyder amassed his fortune, because he's a bad businessman. He ought to know how important brand image is, and yet he does everything he can to taint it, it seems. He doesn't know how to hire good people. He doesn't manage well, and can't let others do it for him, it seems.

[Dissident2]

10 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Even worse?  Selling only 74% of home tickets, the WORST in the league.  In fact, its the worst its been for ANY NFL team(not counting last years move for the Rams) in the past 8 seasons.

 

Wow. That is shocking considering where this once-proud fanbase used to stand. 

 

I think what we're also seeing is just how few young people coming up in the area want to attach themselves to this team, and now we have a generation old enough to buy season tickets and go to the games, and they want nothing to do with it. Conversely, those of us old enough to remember the glory days are getting to the point where going to games every week is too much of a hassle. It's sort of like the "skills gap" you see in a lot of industries these days: older workers retiring and nowhere near enough young workers in these fields are interested enough to jump into those openings. 

 

I can't blame them one bit. I would probably hate this team if I became aware of it from the point when Dan Snyder was the owner. 

[Skinsinparadise]

55 minutes ago, Morneblade said:

 

I disagree with the bolded section.

 

No, they have not recovered. Look at the stands. Look at how the franchise is falling behind other teams that it was once far and away more valuable. Even lifetime fans like myself, are just about at wits end with this team. Many have already done so. Many others are closer than they ever have been. Potential fans are completely turned off by the organization. Not only do they suck on the field, it's a very hard organization to like. It's shady, underhanded, completely mismanaged, and just plain creepy. For a young person in the area, there is literally nothing to get behind.

 

Is the team good? No.

Do they seem like a well run organization that could get better? No

Do they seem to be, at the very least, well intentioned? No

Ok, do they at least seem to be honest and decent people running the show? No.

 

What is there to get behind? Unless you have a huge history with the team, that goes back to when all these things were true, and you're really just holding on to that? That's really about it. Nothing for a young fan to get behind.

 

The team isn't recovering. It's a slow death, that quite bluntly, they are doing everything they can to make happen.

 

I flat out talked about death by a thousand cuts.  But by surviving I mean they are still making a lot of money and even though their fan base diminishes -- this isn't exactly a business that's in jeopardy of going bankrupt.  In spite of it all, this team makes lots of money because you do have a segment of fans who will go to games and buy stuff no matter what.  Heck some of those types on occasion talk about it on this board saying they don't care about this Dan-Bruce stuff -- they like tailgating, seeing their friends and making a day of it every Sunday.  And I think you'll always have fans like that.  So they have a floor. 

 

But have they diluted the brand?  Yeah big time.  Losing fans?  That looks clear, too.

 

Like Brewer suggests they always have a loyal group of fans who support them in just about everything they do and will have their back no matter what.  Heck I've debated some of those people in various threads.   But that group is getting smaller and smaller. 

 

I was just talking to a friend of mine, female, casual football fan, likes the Dolphins -- she heard about this Foster thing and she got into it with me about this is bad team for me to root for.  When you have the national cheerleading story, name debate, this story -- and just the general sentiment that Dan isn't the nicest guy -- that's a lot to take in for some.  And not everyone I talk to knows about every story but enough have the impression that this team are the bad guys.   

 

In the 80s-early 90s, this was one of the cool teams where you had bandwagon fans from outside the DMV.   Now, not really.  Steelers, Packers, Patriots, Cowboys.  It would be a bit comical to see this team now as sort of a national bandwagon team.  But that wasn't the case pre-Dan.

[Morneblade]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I flat out talked about death by a thousand cuts.  But by surviving I mean they are still making a lot of money and even though their fan base diminishes -- this isn't exactly a business that's in jeopardy of going bankrupt.  In spite of it all, this team makes lots of money because you do have a segment of fans who will go to games and buy stuff no matter what.  Heck some of those types on occasion talk about it on this board saying they don't care about this Dan-Bruce stuff -- they like tailgating, seeing their friends and making a day of it every Sunday.  And I think you'll always have fans like that.  So they have a floor. 

 

But have they diluted the brand?  Yeah big time.  Losing fans?  That looks clear, too.

 

Like Brewer suggests they always have a loyal group of fans who support them in just about everything they do and will have their back no matter what.  Heck I've debated some of those people in various threads.   But that group is getting smaller and smaller. 

 

I was just talking to a friend of mine, female, casual football fan, likes the Dolphins -- she heard about this Foster thing and she got into it with me about this is bad team for me to root for.  The name issue was brought up too.   The problem with the name issue is it puts you a bit on the spot with some people (from my experience) because even when you can skate past it -- sometimes you deal with other things that people can throw at you that make it easy for them to question about the motives about everything including the name.    But when you have the national cheerleading story, this story -- and just the general sentiment that Dan isn't the nicest guy -- that's a lot to take in for some.  And not everyone I talk to knows about every story but enough have the impression that this team is the bad guys. 

 

In the 80s-early 90s, this was one of the cool teams where you had bandwagon fans from outside the DMV.   Now, not really.  Steelers, Packers, Patriots, Cowboys.  It would be a bit comical to see this team now as sort of a national bandwagon team.  But that wasn't the case pre-Dan.

 

Ok, the bolded term I agree with. "Recovered" I did not, as that indicates that things are now 100% back to normal. Everything is peachy and things are going smoothly. I think we can agree we are far removed from anything resembling that. Sure, the team will survive, but right now it's a far cry from the glory days. It has not recovered, and I doubt it ever will. At least, not in my lifetime.

[DJHJR86]

Sheehan and Loverro speculated yesterday that the league actually kind of strong-armed (for lack of a better word) the team into hiring Lafemina because of how awful they had been running this once proud franchise.  

[Skinsinparadise]

1 minute ago, Morneblade said:

 

Ok, the bolded term I agree with. "Recovered" I did not, as that indicates that things are now 100% back to normal. Everything is peachy and things are going smoothly. I think we can agree we are far removed from anything resembling that. Sure, the team will survive, but right now it's a far cry from the glory days. It has not recovered, and I doubt it ever will. At least, not in my lifetime.

 

I agree.  By recover I mean this story will eventually be diluted over time as all the other stuff are eventually.  But its just one pile after another pile.   

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Sheehan and Loverro speculated yesterday that the league actually kind of strong-armed (for lack of a better word) the team into hiring Lafemina because of how awful they had been running this once proud franchise.  

 

Yeah I heard Loverro allude to this, too on 106.7.  His theory is the Redskins are a damaged franchise and needs some saving and the league is concerned.  And the idea that Lafemina moved from the league to the Redskins might leave that impression that the league pushed this but who knows. 

 

Lafemina comes off likable, articulate, honest and smooth.  I agree with the tweet below.  The team doesn't really have a credible-articulate spokesperson.  Doug is likable but he's not smooth as a speaker and has gotten the team in some hot water with some of his comments.   I missed it but just saw on twitter Doug got raked over the coals for his comments on First Take among other places.   They clearly think he's the best person to put out there because the media/fans are less inclined to criticize him.    However, there is an art to playing spokesperson and Doug IMO doesn't have that.

 

Neither IMO does Bruce.  Bruce mastered the art of answering questions while saying nothing substantial -- and there is value to that skill as a spokesperson.  But the dude still makes big gaffes and he's not likable.  Lafemina on other hand can do it well and present the organization well.  

 

 

 

 

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Hopefully Lafemina is running this show by January or February of 2019 

[Why am I Mr. Pink?]

3 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

That's probably fair. Not sure if you were able to see the 1987 SB when it happened. If not, I can get him not being in that legend status. But for me, that game, and especially the Q (35 pts in 18 plays), is etched into my memory as one of the most exciting times in football. And he was not only a part of it. he was the maestro. 

 

 

 

Yeah, that game and that quarter ... I was 9 and after watching that I was hooked.