Jay Gruden: Buy, Sell Or HOLD: 2017 edition

[88Comrade2000]

4 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

They inherited MUCH better situations. The Ravens, Seahawks, and Steelers were all pretty much playoff regulars when those guys were hired. Hell the Steelers had won the Super Bowl like two years before Tomlin took over.

 

Gruden inherited an absolute mess. In the five years before he took over the Skins were: 4-12, 6-10, 5-11, 10-6, and 3-13. In his first year he was 4-12 because the QB situation was a mess. Since he got to use his QB we've gone 9-7, 8-7-1, and are currently 3-2. This is with one less first round pick than other teams in the same time span due to the after effects of the RG3 trade(and one other first round pick missing an entire rookie year, that's a lot of talent missing). He led us to back to back winning seasons, something even Gibbs and Shanahan couldn't do.

 

But yeah, lets get rid of him and hire Bill Cowher. Because that's definitely worked out for us in the past.

I haven't said to fire him.  I did say that if the Skins finish with 10 or more losses this year; Snyder will can him; despite the extension. Snyder has never had a coach last more than 4 years.

 

I will wait to see how the season plays out but I've already got the feeling ;that Jay only has the ability to take the team to a certain level. The 7 to 9 win level; essentially mediocre. Not bad but not good.  Just a middle of the road team.  Eventually, the team will expect more and if Jay doesn't deliver he will be let go.  

 

What happens with Kirk next year also could dictate Jay's long term future. The team will really be starting over, if Kirk is elsewhere. Next year could see the team slip back, as we groom a new QB.

[wilco_holland]

Gruden the O system builder is great. In Cincinnati and now in D.C. I have seen him come up with stuff that makes his O move. He is able to tweak his systems and find innovative ways to get the most out of his guys. 

 

Gruden O playcalling is average. I just feel like he sometimes goes away from the stuff that works or goes to pass heavy when you kinda want to run the clock down. 

 

Gruden the HC. I think the vibe around the team is nice. I like him a lot as a person. Team plays with enough discipline. I think he is good in that role. 

 

So I would rather see him find somebody else to O playcall and focus on the HC stuff. I think that will make the team overall better. Don't want to see him leave. 

[kleese]

I am pretty sure those in the "sell" category must have watched their first ever Redskins game starting with the 2014 season. 

 

Jay Gruden might be the best thing to happened to this franchise in 25 years. 

[TimmySmith]

Gruden puts a competitive team on the field, then he is it's worst component once the kickoff occurs. I don't call him Norv 2.0  for no reason. As much as I am happy the Skins are competitive, I  know that the Gruden era will be frought  with mediocrity. 

[goskins10]

9 hours ago, SWFLSkins said:

 

That is looking at it from a fans view, I am thinking like a Coach here. I would love a SB run, love it, Hell I would love just a playoff run and for the team to show some consistency and an ability to empty the gun into the opponent instead of ones own foot. Just show me you are getting better at your job, small improvements. If Jay can achieve a winning record this year, finish out the season with a respectable run, I move to Buy. 

 

My beefs are pretty well stated, and were the same last year and the year before. He Zigs, when the other team Zags, can't seem to recognize momentum shifts and appears to Coach from fear of screwing up, gets tight when he should get loose. Too predictable, Gibbs always kept teams off balance. Not saying he has to be Gibbs to win, but shouldn't he try to use some of those methods? Does Doug get in his ear at all, or is Bruce in there too much? I don't know, the FO without Scot still scares me, too much of a possible pipeline to the lil'guy.

 

 

Actually you have it backwards. You are looking at through the very narrow view of a fan who sees a few things they think they can do better and the few mistakes made. If you were truly thinking like a coach you would look at the big picture not the micro picture. Being a fan and being critical based on the micro-view is totally your right but don't pass it off as some greater more informed analysis.

 

Jay did explain why he ran it 3 times. He wanted to run clock. And as he pointed out, a single incompletion any time during that series leaves 35 to 40 more seconds on the clock for them. No one is saying he is perfect. But who among is perfect? All coaches struggle with clock management, at least form a fans perspective. The fans are not on the sideline having to make the call in real time. 

 

Jay Gruden gives this team a few things this team has not had in 20+ yrs outside of Gibbs 2.0 (even he struggled with clock management if you remember):

1. A steady voice during chaos. He is a very level guy, something needed when dealing with big egos like Bruce and Dan. Although I wish he had a bigger voice (thinking Kirk's lack of a contract.)

2. A very high level offensive mind. He can get some offense generated. I would like him to work more on the run but let's face it, this is a passing league.

3. The players really like him and more importantly respect him. They play very hard for him. That has not been true here outside Joe Gibbs for the last 30 yrs.

4. Oh yes, and winning ball games. He inherited a total hot mess of a football team. Yes there were some key pieces here, but they were in pieces. Not a team. He has gotten them to play together. Yet he crafted 2 winning season s and unless I missed something we won yesterday putting the team at 3-2.

5. The ability to attract high level assistants. Make no mistake if Jay were an idiot then there is no way you guys like Tomsula and Callahan here, not to mention Torrian Grey and Manusky.

 

In the short term I can see the frustration. But when you look at the long game, you can see a team emerging with grit, toughness, and the will to win. But this takes time to create this culture in a place that has not had that culture for a few decades.

 

 

[TheCoach22]

I've grown to be "okay" with Jay... but for me he is JAG as the total package (as someone else said as a OC he is great, playcaller good, HC he is JAG). Is there not someone he can sit with and learn how to be better in 4 min and 2 min offensive decision making? He also is pretty poor at adjustments. I.e. What he thought would work yesterday with CT in the ground game did not and he had no answer other than to just keep trying. That's the definition of insanity.

 

As long as the D staff is solid, Jay is going to be able to put competitive teams in the field. But since four of five games this year have been one score/last possession games.... dude has to get better at in-game decision making and adjustments. Otherwise 8-10 wins and never able to win a PO game will be his ceiling.

[Wildbunny]

Last year, our D was far from being solid, and we still fielded competitive teams.

 

Jay is vastly underrated here and that is becoming disturbing.

 

Playcalls? Time management? Those are the kind of mistakes you can see though the whole NFL and from every coaches. There was nothing wrong in running it 3 times at the end, because well, more than 90% of the coaches would have done it. And let's be honest with it, if he had call a pass on either down and that pass failed and we end up losing the game, some of those complaining would be asking for him to get fired asap. There was no way he would have pleased us here, except by getting the 1st down. The simple fact that everyone is expecting the play doesn't mean that you shouldn't play it. Those are really two subjectives point of view of his job that there's no way you can please everyone.

 

He's far from perfect, obviously, but since there's no objective way of upgrading playcalling and time management (because as I said those are subjectives stuffs). It's hard to complain. Check what he have done with Kirk. Where was the guy when he arrived, where is he now? The kind of coaching staff he assembled. The way players are playing for him.

 

Mind you, that's the first requisites you want from a HC. One that can get players involved, competitives, competent coaching staff, and raise everyone's level by making them believe. If your HC doesn't have that, then you're going nowhere...

[Veryoldschool]

Gruden came into Daniel Snyder's totally out of control nut house and seizes control by benching the megabust, insists on playing Kirk Cousins who blossomed into one of the league leaders and the hapless Skins start winning and you want to bail on Gruden?  I guess we could do worse than Dan Snyder, one of you characters could own the Skins and be making the decisions.

2 hours ago, TimmySmith said:

Gruden puts a competitive team on the field, then he is it's worst component once the kickoff occurs. I don't call him Norv 2.0  for no reason. As much as I am happy the Skins are competitive, I  know that the Gruden era will be frought  with mediocrity. 

 

Mediocrity is an improvement for the Skins and we have Gruden to thank for it.  I am hopeful this mediocrity is followed by excellence at some point despite the ownership. 

[Guardshock]

As a fan, I'm tired of this ****. The guy will never make all of you happy. Just enjoy the fact that we're competitive and getting better each year.

 

We're competitive as hell this year. ENJOY IT AND STOP COMPLAINING.

[SWFLSkins]

39 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

Actually you have it backwards. You are looking at through the very narrow view of a fan who sees a few things they think they can do better and the few mistakes made. If you were truly thinking like a coach you would look at the big picture not the micro picture. Being a fan and being critical based on the micro-view is totally your right but don't pass it off as some greater more informed analysis.

 

Jay did explain why he ran it 3 times. He wanted to run clock. And as he pointed out, a single incompletion any time during that series leaves 35 to 40 more seconds on the clock for them. No one is saying he is perfect. But who among is perfect? All coaches struggle with clock management, at least form a fans perspective. The fans are not on the sideline having to make the call in real time. 

 

 

 

 

 

I edited the post for length, it made some really great points. I don't think I have it backwards that on issues fans can clearly see, he should easily be able to identify and work on as a Professional. This critique is not based on one game or one series. He has had a history of closing out halves and games poorly. Of coaching scared in the pinnacle moments. That is what separates guys like Gibbs, Parcells, Belichick and other greats. They all had a knack for pulling out a surprise genius play call to close out games. They were not 100% successful, and Jay really isn't 100% fail. 

 

My point is you don't get there overnight, but make baby steps to that level. As of this moment I don't see Jay progressing to that level, maybe he is just a little slower in developing. I hope he is not stuck in Neutral and can find First gear. I wanna like the guy for many reasons you laid out, in fact I do. 

33 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Last year, our D was far from being solid, and we still fielded competitive teams.

 

Jay is vastly underrated here and that is becoming disturbing.

 

Playcalls? Time management? Those are the kind of mistakes you can see though the whole NFL and from every coaches. There was nothing wrong in running it 3 times at the end, because well, more than 90% of the coaches would have done it.

 

End of the game aside, how many times on first down with the box stuffed did he run it. I said before the season started, tweeted it and had many experts agree, there are times in a game you pull the pony out of the hat, leave the rabbit where it was. Throw on first down to set up the run for second down, just once in a blue moon. And year running it on third and six is basically counting on your D to close out the game, which they did. IMO he took the safest route and it worked this time. When you get some confidence as a Coach with your team, you throw caution to the wind and GO FOR IT> don't kick them in the shin and hope they don't punch back, throw check them and then knee the groin. 

[SWFLSkins]

18 minutes ago, Guardshock said:

As a fan, I'm tired of this ****. The guy will never make all of you happy. Just enjoy the fact that we're competitive and getting better each year.

 

We're competitive as hell this year. ENJOY IT AND STOP COMPLAINING.

 

You mean don't discuss the merits of the Redskins on EXTREMESKINS.com? Am I lost or is this a knitting club? 

[Wildbunny]

42 minutes ago, SWFLSkins said:

End of the game aside, how many times on first down with the box stuffed did he run it. I said before the season started, tweeted it and had many experts agree, there are times in a game you pull the pony out of the hat, leave the rabbit where it was. Throw on first down to set up the run for second down, just once in a blue moon. And year running it on third and six is basically counting on your D to close out the game, which they did. IMO he took the safest route and it worked this time. When you get some confidence as a Coach with your team, you throw caution to the wind and GO FOR IT> don't kick them in the shin and hope they don't punch back, throw check them and then knee the groin. 

 

I don't really disagree with that, but can we really complain for going with the safest route? There must a be a reason for it to be the safest route. After all, there was a rookie QB on the other side, playing is first game, and was given a tough task. So weigthing odds, there was low chances of him scoring again. He had to learn to handle the pressure. could happen, but was a real low chance IMO.

 

I agree on the fact that he may be more unpredictable, if one can be, calling plays. But did he not opened the game with a Crowder run? (Something Kyle did with his first play as well which looked like: "Yeah I can do that also".).

 

But as a whole I still think that god play calling is plays that works. And that on each down, two plays are called. One for the O, one for the D. Results will determine which one was good. So there's no real magic system in calling plays. Simply a coach's gut.

 

Now I can see us being bored with it as in fact our O isn't that good. receivers are not that great (except Grant that is becoming more reliable as time goes by) with Reed being out of the picture, Crowder a non factor, Pryor and Doctson still works in progress and an anemic running game besides CT. So I doubt Jay's being amped in play calling is more due to him being not good than him being not helped by the talent at his disposal.

[pjfootballer]

I like Jay.  I think he can win for us here.  Only a couple of things that he still need to work on:

 

1.  Late game clock situations.

 

2.  Late game play calling when we need to run out the clock.

[DJHJR86]

Buy for sure.  The players play hard for him.  That's huge.  And that's all that really matters.

[Tay]

I think many fans fail to realize that many coaches throughout the NFL have these same issues.

 

We have been improving every year under Jay, and this year's team is better than most people projected. I'm buying Jay Gruden and it's not close.

[NoVaSkins21]

1 hour ago, SWFLSkins said:

End of the game aside, how many times on first down with the box stuffed did he run it. I said before the season started, tweeted it and had many experts agree, there are times in a game you pull the pony out of the hat, leave the rabbit where it was. Throw on first down to set up the run for second down, just once in a blue moon. And year running it on third and six is basically counting on your D to close out the game, which they did. IMO he took the safest route and it worked this time. When you get some confidence as a Coach with your team, you throw caution to the wind and GO FOR IT> don't kick them in the shin and hope they don't punch back, throw check them and then knee the groin. 

 

I think throwing on 1st down is good since it sets up a manageable situations on 2nd and 3rd downs.  Definitely needs to be aggressive.  Gruden needs to be less gun shy when it comes to this.  The players probably like him and this would give them more confidence in their head coach

[SWFLSkins]

2 hours ago, Veryoldschool said:

 

 

Mediocrity is an improvement for the Skins and we have Gruden to thank for it.  I am hopeful this mediocrity is followed by excellence at some point despite the ownership. 

 

I am thankful Jay appears to have gotten out of the Snyder Era of fail, but alas, I help wonder what happened with Scot and his influence in the player area will have the next couple years. I was hoping we had the Gibbs, Beathard and JKC set up going again. 

 

And if you are satisfied being mediocre, that's all you'll ever be. That sums up this thread for me, I Want to see growth. continual and sustainable growth. 

[Wildbunny]

11 minutes ago, SAli457180 said:

 

I think throwing on 1st down is good since it sets up a manageable situations on 2nd and 3rd downs.  Definitely needs to be aggressive.  Gruden needs to be less gun shy when it comes to this.  The players probably like him and this would give them more confidence in their head coach

The real question here is:

Do we have what it takes (personnel wise) to be aggressive on 1st down?

 

Right now, I would say no.

[Voice_of_Reason]

I have probably been one of Jay's biggest critics on the board.  I nicknamed him "Captain Yuk Yuk Yuk" because of his chummy, goofy disposition.

 

I am going to say that I've moved from immediate sell at any cost to hold.  I'm not quite ready to jump on buy, but he's moving in that direction.  I still think that he's completely clueless, like Andy Reid clueless, when it comes to clock management.  Maybe he will get better at it, maybe not.  

 

But the team is playing for him, and it seems like Manusky is the first DC he's hired (or, in the case of Haz, not immediately fired), who isn't a gigantic boob.  

 

56 minutes ago, pjfootballer said:

I like Jay.  I think he can win for us here.  Only a couple of things that he still need to work on:

 

1.  Late game clock situations.

 

2.  Late game play calling when we need to run out the clock.

3. Not being predictable on 1st down play-calls.  I don't know about yesterday, but he gets into a rut where he runs the ball 80% of the time on first down.  In the Raider game (I think? Maybe KC?) Every drive started with a running play.

 

This would be a lot more effective if we ran the ball better.  For the time being, he needs to mix it up a bit more.  

 

4. He gets really stuck on certain "try-hard" guys at the expense of more talented guys.  

 

[LaRonDontLikeUgly]

21 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

Buy for sure.  The players play hard for him.  That's huge.  And that's all that really matters.

 

I have a friend who refuses to "rate" women on a basic 1-10 scale.  Instead, he relies on his own rating system:  they're either 1 or 0 (1 he would, and 0 he wouldn't).

 

I admire people like him and yourself who can look at complicated situations so linearly... It's got make life much more simple for you.  Unfortunately, I'm the complete opposite and try to weigh many variables before coming to my overall conclusion.  

 

While I'm currently a "buy" at the moment, I share many of the frustrations that others have on this board.  I also don't agree that players playing hard is the "only thing" that matters" OR that Gruden has his guys playing hard/smart football for 4 quarters.

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

The real question here is:

Do we have what it takes (personnel wise) to be aggressive on 1st down?

 

Right now, I would say no.

Do we have a good enough run game to run on 1st down?  I'd say no.

 

Which is why you have to mix it up and do some of both.  Go play-action sometimes, go straight pass sometimes, and go run sometimes.  

 

That way the defense doesn't have a tendency to be prepare for.  If you can't do any one thing really well, then do all of them and use disguise and surprise to help yourself. 

[SWFLSkins]

 

11 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

The real question here is:

Do we have what it takes (personnel wise) to be aggressive on 1st down?

 

Right now, I would say no.

 

Disagree completely, short yardage pass to Thompson or Vernon is what won some previous games and IMO lost the KC game.

[BatteredFanSyndrome]

24 minutes ago, Tay said:

I think many fans fail to realize that many coaches throughout the NFL have these same issues.

No doubt.  But being honest, Jay is a habitual offender.  I really think he needs someone from upstairs in his ear with clock strategy.  He has his hands on too many other things going on to be proficient in this area.  Let someone else be the voice of reason.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

No doubt.  But being honest, Jay is a habitual offender.  I really think he needs someone from upstairs in his ear with clock strategy.  He has his hands on too many other things going on to be proficient in this area.  Let someone else be the voice of reason.

I was listening to Sheehan this morning. Who knows if hes right but he said he heard Jay gets help from upstairs with end of the game clock management and among the helpers is Bruce. That was weird to hear. I know Bruce for awhile was helping with challenges but clock management?

[NoVaSkins21]

31 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

The real question here is:

Do we have what it takes (personnel wise) to be aggressive on 1st down?

 

Right now, I would say no.

 

Yeah, definitely at WR.  When Pryor, Crowder, or Doctson are the options, they're going to be severely limited.