General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)

[Commander PK]

5 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Stop it now, then address the existing ones with confining laws, regulations and offer incentives to turn them in to melt.  Make it a tax credit, make it free puppy, make it a free get out of speeding ticket.  Just dont tell me it's impossible.

 

It’s not impossible, but you will get those that buy in and those that don’t.  There are plenty of people who would never turn in their own guns for any incentive.  I’m one of them.  I value mine and my family’s safety and liberty more than money.

 

Theoretically speaking, How would you make me comply?  If they come to my house and I say the gun was stolen who’s to say I’m lying?  

 

At best you significantly lower the number over a period of years/decades.  There are still plenty of guns out here though.  To do a mass shooting you only need a couple.  

 

We have to address our cultural and social problems that have led us to this place.

[Kilmer17]

2 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

and they don’t see it or if they have they refuse to change course.  

 

Honestly, after a mass shooting who among you who are gun owners are ready to turn in your guns for the greater good?  Who would actually participate in say...a government buy back program?  

 

Let’s say a buy back program resulted in 1 million guns being turned in. Still leaves you with 299 million guns.  If our goal is to stop mass shootings what has that really accomplished?  

Of the 300 million guns, how many are shotguns?

I dont advocate REQUIRING guns to be turned in.  If you want to keep them, fine.  But I support eliminating gun shows.  And I advocate either eliminating private sales altogether, or making it a felony to sell a gun that is used to commit a crime in the future.  So if you DO sell one, you better be damn sure who you are selling it to.  I also advocate a zero tolerance for gun crime.  Life without parole.  Period.  No room for judge or jury option.  Any crime committed with a gun in possession, you spend your life in a cage.  That means steal a bike and have a gun in your backpack?  Life sentence.  

[AsburySkinsFan]

4 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

What are you trying to get at?

 

Should Democrats STFU and just ignore this epidemic so the NRA can't use propaganda campaigns to boost gun sales? 

No, but getting Nancy Pelosi up in front of a microphone talking ignorantly about guns, and with an aim to end the 2nd Amendment the ONLY thing you’re going to do is cause people to dig in, and stockpile.

[No Excuses]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Nope, the Democrats should find a better way so, as ASF said "thur commin for yer gunz" isn't a thing.  

 

Right. The problem is the people asking for sane gun control measures. Not the group that has taken every opportunity to create bull**** propaganda claims about a mythical liberal elite who is coming to confiscate all law abiding peoples guns.

 

And with that, we have achieved peak both sideism. Life must be incredible as a jellyfish, without a spine.

[daveakl]

2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Hey, it's true: https://www.npr.org/2017/03/31/522036660/democrats-are-good-for-gun-sales-guess-what-happened-after-trumps-election

 

 

Did you even read the article?

 

Republicans hype up that Dem's are going to cut off their guns and thus they spike in sales.  Republicans come into office and nobody worries their guns are going to be restricted.

[No Excuses]

2 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

No, but getting Nancy Pelosi up in front of a microphone talking ignorantly about guns, and with an aim to end the 2nd Amendment the ONLY thing you’re going to do is cause people to dig in, and stockpile.

 

Which Democrat leader is calling for an end to the 2nd amendment?

 

How many elected Democrats are actually making the case for repealing the 2nd amendment?

[MartinC]

1 hour ago, Painkiller said:

You would think that would be obvious by now.  I’m an NRA life member and the father of three.  I want them safe also, but I also realize this problem is going to be a lot harder to solve than a few additonal window dressing gun laws.  

 

Let the insults fly.

 

I will tell you what will not work. Thoughts and prayers.

 

I recall there were prayers after Vegas. And the one before that. And the one before that.

 

Something more is needed. And your right it can't just be window dressing gun laws, something more wide reaching is needed which includes proper funding for identifying and treating mental health issues, measures to vastly reduce gun ownership and laws to enforce stricter control on who can buy a gun and for what reason.

 

Not going to happen though.

 

What is comes down to is enough people in this Country believe that their right to bear arms is important enough to tolerate kids being shot in school as the price for that right.

[Commander PK]

3 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

Of the 300 million guns, how many are shotguns?

I dont advocate REQUIRING guns to be turned in.  If you want to keep them, fine.  But I support eliminating gun shows.  And I advocate either eliminating private sales altogether, or making it a felony to sell a gun that is used to commit a crime in the future.  So if you DO sell one, you better be damn sure who you are selling it to.  I also advocate a zero tolerance for gun crime.  Life without parole.  Period.  No room for judge or jury option.  Any crime committed with a gun in possession, you spend your life in a cage.  That means steal a bike and have a gun in your backpack?  Life sentence.  

 

I’m fine with the maximum penalty for people who commit crimes with guns.  On that we totally agree.  

 

Problem is, America believes we have an incarceration problem and massive steps have been taken to keep offenders out of the jails, or parole them after they have done 3 years on a 10 year sentence.  Now we are going to head back in the other direction and mass incarcerate again?

 

Personally, I wish people would just behave themselves and obey the laws.

[AsburySkinsFan]

2 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

Which Democrat leader is calling for an end to the 2nd amendment?

 

How many elected Democrats are actually making the case for repealing the 2nd amendment?

It doesn’t take a leader saying it, it takes a lakey Congressmen in California or a candidate for office to start in on the 2nd Amendment. That is then attributed upward. Then when Nancy starts the fear is maxed. 

And if you don’t think there are many on the Left who want to walk back the 2nd Amendment then that’s a bit naive.

[Kilmer17]

2 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

I’m fine with the maximum penalty for people who commit crimes with guns.  On that we totally agree.  

 

Problem is, America believes we have an incarceration problem and massive steps have been taken to keep offenders out of the jails, or parole them after they have done 3 years on a 10 year sentence.  Now we are going to head back in the other direction and mass incarcerate again?

 

Personally, I wish people would just behave themselves and obey the laws.

We DO have an incarceration problem.  It's one that's eliminated when we legalize and regulate drug sales.  Which also eliminates some gun violence when gang bangers arent shooting each other over who owns the corner because the local bodega is now selling pot brownies and paying taxes on it.

 

 

[zoony]

12 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

also advocate a zero tolerance for gun crime.  Life without parole.  Period.  No room for judge or jury option.  Any crime committed with a gun in possession, you spend your life in a cage.  That means steal a bike and have a gun in your backpack?  Life sentence.  

 

Pretty sure we had this at one point, or still do.  I think it was drug crimes committed with a gun.

 

 

[DogofWar1]

1 hour ago, redskinss said:

You just proved my point by saying "and its semi automatic cousins"

You'd have to outlaw all weapons with an extremely high muzzle velocity and high capacity magazines etc, etc. 

 

That's why I think my analogy is appropriate,  if you remove all guns from america (which isn't going to happen) you eliminate the problem,  just as removing all cars from the streets would eliminate speeding,  also not going to happen and is totally impractical. 

If you eliminate all high power sports car you can seriously reduce the impact of accidents caused from speeding but if you just get rid of the mustangs if won't do a damn thing because people will just drive corvettes. 

I think I'm trying to steer the analogy towards all vehicles that CAN traverse a road, not just cars, and so I think the AR-15 and its semi-auto, high capacity rifle cousins fit under things that aren't "street legal" (like a tank, or a 747, or that James Bond boat from The World is Not Enough).

 

That being said, if we are confining ourselves to just cars, then I think we'd be talking about banning not just Mustangs but also Corvettes, Lambos, etc. etc., or rather, banning all vehicles having engines above a certain horsepower, or at least requiring a high threshold of training before one is allowed to use it.

 

To that end we sneak towards comparisons of vehicle licensing versus gun ownership which has always had interesting comparisons, mainly because in some states its easier to own a gun than get a driver's license.

[Llevron]

Just now, Spaceman Spiff said:

How's it contentious when it's actually true? 

 

Well lets start with comparing the two statements. 

 

 

2 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

does it concern you when Democrats are in office that gun sales and the gun industry is better?

 

10 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Democrats are the best gun salesmen around.  

 

One of these statements is factual and the other is logical fallacy at worst and hyperbole at best. Part of the problem we have in this conversation is that people like you think you have a place in it and then take up space with bull**** like this. Tell me how its helpful? 

 

The fact that guns sell better with Dems in office doesn't bother me a bit. I want to know why that is and how to change that.

21 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

 

Nope, the Democrats should find a better way so, as ASF said "thur commin for yer gunz" isn't a thing.  

 

So its the democrats fault that the Republicans play petty games like Obama is going to steal your guns? 

 

You are the perfect example of why this doesnt work and you dont even know it. Wake up bro you are smarter than this. 

[FanboyOf91]

17 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

We have to address our cultural and social problems that have led us to this place.

 

 

Mass shootings are a solved problem except in the United States of America (which refuses to take it seriously).

[Sticksboi05]

10 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

I’m fine with the maximum penalty for people who commit crimes with guns.  On that we totally agree.  

 

Problem is, America believes we have an incarceration problem and massive steps have been taken to keep offenders out of the jails, or parole them after they have done 3 years on a 10 year sentence.  Now we are going to head back in the other direction and mass incarcerate again?

 

Personally, I wish people would just behave themselves and obey the laws.

 

100% I am not here for overcrowding an already-overcrowded prison system that for some reason is partially driven by profit.

 

The same people who want no gun restrictions are the same #BlueLivesMatter people. You know what would help keep officers safe, and make their lives easier, giving them proper funding and technology to track firearms used in crimes. Not relying on random bullets found on the scene and hoping something already in some system. Give the FBI what it needs to do better and more efficient background checks, which should be universal.

 

That would help the people in blue. I'll tell you what they don't want...to show up on the scene of an incident knowing there's a dozen people there with guns out and trying to determine who is good and who isn't. There's a fine line between "let's allow for concealed carry" and "we need to arm everyone because I'm scared".

 

My two cents. This issue also goes beyond gun control to a lot of societal issues including the media, mental health etc. BUT we need to address this like we addressed drunk driving.

[Llevron]

23 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

We have to address our cultural and social problems that have led us to this place.

 

People are way more stubborn about their ideals that manifest in our cultural and social problem then you are about your guns. How is that even possible? I agree with you that would be the best and most effective way to solve it. But that is not possible. Unfortunately. 

[Going Commando]

29 minutes ago, daveakl said:

This could be both one of the dumbest things I have ever read and one of the best political spins ever.

 

It's a pathetic attempt at both-sidesism.  A way for someone to defend the indefensible and pawn off responsibility for this ****ing debacle on the one party that's actually trying to do anything about it.

[DogofWar1]

Kilmer has it right on existing guns, the vast and overwhelming majority are in the hands of responsible owners.  While there may need to be some intervention in cases of people with specific mental illnesses or offenses, that's likely a small percentage, probably 2-3% of presently owned guns.

 

Newer purchases are the primary concern.  If gun purchases and sales were banned tomorrow but nothing was done on the 300M, there would still be a huge drop in gun violence.  There are several areas that could be chokepoints which are not.

 

As to Ashbury's point about the difficulty of stopping someone from getting the core component (not the gun but the component) of a semi-auto, high capacity rifle, I think you'd still see significant improvements if you only left that core legal and made sale of completed firearms in that category extremely limited or illegal.  If there is some sort of skill barrier in place, then it becomes a chokepoint.  And if you treat the components needed to transform that small core component into an actual firearm like we treat chemicals that could potentially be used to create a bomb, there are going to be plenty of chances to catch someone before the they can act.

[The Evil Genius]

8 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

BUT we need to address this like we addressed drunk driving.

 

Agreed.

 

Which means a concerted multi-pronged education/legislation campaign to change the cultural acceptance of it.

 

We know there isn't just one fix. And we know that none of them will 100% eliminate the problem - even if that's the unattainable end goal.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2018 by The Evil Genius

[HOF44]

With our current majorities and president that have been elected this is going to continue.  I'm not sure the Dems would do much about it.  It's not an issue for our Citizens United donors therefore it's not an issue.  

[Commander PK]

23 minutes ago, FanboyOf91 said:

 

Mass shootings are a solved problem except in the United States of America (which refuses to take it seriously).

 

I think he’s wrong.  I think we have more people with a desire to kill others in this country than there are in other civilized countries.  Guns don’t pull their own triggers.  

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/maps-and-graphics/mapped-the-countries-with-the-most-guns/

 

Switzerland, Norway, and Sweden are all in the top 10 per capita for private gun ownership.  Roughly 30 to 50 Guns for every 100 citizens.  These country’s are also armed to the teeth and don’t have this problem.  

 

Why is that?  

 

Are we really going to say that cutting our per capita guns in half at this point would stop mass shootings?  We aren’t even in the top 10 for gun related deaths even with all those guns.  

 

We do have a mass shooting problem.    

Edited February 15, 2018 by Painkiller

[Spaceman Spiff]

17 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Well lets start with comparing the two statements. 

 

 

 

 

One of these statements is factual and the other is logical fallacy at worst and hyperbole at best. Part of the problem we have in this conversation is that people like you think you have a place in it and then take up space with bull**** like this. Tell me how its helpful? 

 

The fact that guns sell better with Dems in office doesn't bother me a bit. I want to know why that is and how to change that.

 

So its the democrats fault that the Republicans play petty games like Obama is going to steal your guns? 

 

You are the perfect example of why this doesnt work and you dont even know it. Wake up bro you are smarter than this. 

 

So you don't like the way the message is delivered from people like me who'd be in favor of laws in an effort to prohibit something like yesterday and would like to see our leaders try to figure something out.  Got it.

 

 

 

 

[Llevron]

26 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

And if you don’t think there are many on the Left who want to walk back the 2nd Amendment then that’s a bit naive.

 

I get that but there are people on the right advocating for taking about when how America was best when we had slaves dont attribute that **** all the way up the chain when Trump said he wants to go back to the good ole days do we? 

 

Thats because its unreasonable and we dont have an organization like the NRA paying people to do so.

[DogofWar1]

18 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

100% I am not here for overcrowding an already-overcrowded prison system that for some reason is partially driven by profit.

While I too am opposed to mass incarceration, I suspect if we ended the drug war while imposing harsher gun related sentences, we'd see a reduction of persons incarcerated on the whole.

[AsburySkinsFan]