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General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)


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2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

It's deeper then that.  In Virginia Tech and Aurora the shooters were diagnosed and getting treatment, but that information either was not made available while they were accumulating weapons and ammo or ignored. 

 

Mr Larry, Your Honor. Representing Mr Satan. 

 

1). Just pointing out that a policy where people will be put on a government list if they seek treatment might have undesirable consequences. 

 

2). And, the fact that they were under treatment, and went on a killing spree anyway, speaks to the efficacy of said treatment. 

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34 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Mr Larry, Your Honor. Representing Mr Satan. 

 

1). Just pointing out that a policy where people will be put on a government list if they seek treatment might have undesirable consequences. 

 

2). And, the fact that they were under treatment, and went on a killing spree anyway, speaks to the efficacy of said treatment. 

Agree on Point #1, no question about it. 

 

I don't have enough info on what the doctors were doing to comment on Point #2.

 

What I can tell you is same thing I mentioned earlier; its a process and it doesn't always work.  I will add that you have a whole notha set of problems when violent tendencies are involved, that's the real red flag for me, even more then thoughts of suicide.  You can be suicidal and have zero intent on harming anyone outside yourself, and I've known people that talk about this without ever being diagnosed with anything.

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7 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Still not sure why AR-15's are a legal weapon to own. 

Because to outlaw it because of a gun problem is akin to outlawing the ford mustang because of a speeding problem. 

I agree something has to be done but that won't do anything,  a different gun will become the most popular and then we'll be discussing why that one is still legal.

 

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Eighteen school shootings in 2018 and it's not even March. Be nice if we could try something other than thoughts and prayers, but no, the only thing we do is decrease gun laws and decrease money for mental health care (Trump's budget, defunding of Obamacare, etc.)

 

There are remedies that 80% of Americans favor, but none even come up for debate in Congress because votes don't matter, voters don't matter, all that matters is money.

 

.I can understand why the example below might have been controversial, but don't eliminate it... improve it. Add a system of appeals. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. If you think mental health is the real issue stop neutering any efforts to treat, prevent, or deal with it. It's past time to attempt something.

Trump Signs Bill Revoking Obama-Era Gun Checks for People With Mental Illnesses

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-signs-bill-revoking-obama-era-gun-checks-people-mental-n727221

 

President Donald Trump quietly signed a bill into law Tuesday rolling back an Obama-era regulation that made it harder for people with mental illnesses to purchase a gun.

The rule, which was finalized in December, added people receiving Social Security checks for mental illnesses and people deemed unfit to handle their own financial affairs to the national background check database.

 

Edited by Burgold
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4 minutes ago, redskinss said:

Because to outlaw it because of a gun problem is akin to outlawing the ford mustang because of a speeding problem. 

I agree something has to be done but that won't do anything,  a different gun will become the most popular and then we'll be discussing why that one is still legal.

 

It gets beyond that, there are so many AR’s in the united states right now, some estimate as many as 5 million. And that ONLY counts the AR’s that we sold as complete units, it doesn’t even address the kits.

 

So 5 million AR’s but AR’s aren’t the only semi-automatic high capacity rifle on the market or in circulation.  We’re talking 10’s of millions of these guns, and this doesn’t even address the fact that the vast majority of gun violence committed in the US is performed with a handgun.

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Someone is going to have to give here on this gun thing. There is a counter argument for literally everything. Background checks, gun shows, AR-15, MORE guns, more security. You can counter all of that. 

 

What we haven't tried to do is implement anything and see if it helps. I mean really is it going to get much worse if we stop selling the AR-15? I know you have a counter argument but we need to do something this is a desperate situation. 

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1 hour ago, redskinss said:

Because to outlaw it because of a gun problem is akin to outlawing the ford mustang because of a speeding problem. 

I agree something has to be done but that won't do anything,  a different gun will become the most popular and then we'll be discussing why that one is still legal.

 

I disagree with that analogy, I'd liken it more to banning tanks from being driven on streets.  Any car can speed, whereas in terms of guns, the AR-15 and its semi-automatic cousins are in a class all their own.  They're a little too different from your standard 9mm handgun to be likened only to a Mustang.

 

1 hour ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

It gets beyond that, there are so many AR’s in the united states right now, some estimate as many as 5 million. And that ONLY counts the AR’s that we sold as complete units, it doesn’t even address the kits.

 

So 5 million AR’s but AR’s aren’t the only semi-automatic high capacity rifle on the market or in circulation.  We’re talking 10’s of millions of these guns, and this doesn’t even address the fact that the vast majority of gun violence committed in the US is performed with a handgun.

 

One of the bigger things that will need to come to pass is banning people convicted of domestic violence from owning handguns.  Some places do but the link between domestic violence and gun violence is about as rock solid as they come.

 

While banning new sales of the AR won't take the current ones out of homes where they've already been bought, if you ban the sale of AR-15s and other semi-auto rifles generally, then bar all private sales of firearms without some broker in the middle to record the transaction and make sure the buying party is legal to receive the firearm, and then implemented/enforce laws keeping domestic violence actors from owning any firearms, you would probably see a massive reduction in mass shootings but even those that continue to happen would happen with less deadly firearms.  Further, gun violence generally would see a drop.

 

6 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

Patiently waiting for what type of mental health issues will decline a gun purchase.  I asked that a page or two ago and no one has touched it yet.  Everything else in your post I agree with, but I couldn't give it a like without bringing this up.

 

 

This is where CDC studies would do a lot of good.  Not every mental illness is going to show a causal link to violence/gun violence, but some definitely will.

 

A lot of abusers have depression and substance abuse issues.  That doesn't mean that everyone with depression or who abuses substances should be barred from owning a gun, but I know there are certain markers that can likely be found within subsets of depression and/or substance abuse that would suggest a person being at risk of committing violence.

 

Getting the CDC back in here and doing major studies will really help pinpoint exactly which issues need to raise concern and which likely don't, because we know just about everyone who commits a mass shooting isn't right in the head in some way, but knowing exactly which way, without creating excessive amounts of false positives, will be crucial to success.

Edited by DogofWar1
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Here we go again............. 18 shootings already and it's only February. Right now we're averaging a shooting every 2 1/2 days so we either see another tomorrow or someone has to wait 'til Monday and really let it rip, there's your happy thought for the day. You'll have more deaths before these kids even get buried.

 

But Thoughts and Prayers! Thoughts and Prayers!

 

Children are being slaughtered....but

 

Thoughts and Prayers!Thoughts and Prayers!

 

Elementary school children get mowed down

 

Thoughts and Prayers!Thoughts and Prayers!

 

If the body count is in the single digits it doesn't even twitch the needle anymore.....but

 

Thoughts and Prayers!Thoughts and Prayers!

 

This **** ain't working! We need to do something!

 

(Fingers in ears) Thoughts and Prayers!Thoughts and Prayers!

 

It's insulting and hypocritical, if your only reaction is to do nothing, to actively prevent anything from being done and cloaking yourself in some fantasy of action by posting "Thoughts and Prayers!Thoughts and Prayers!", then you're not only part of the problem, you're a BIG part of the problem

 

 

 

 

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12 minutes ago, LD0506 said:

 

It's insulting and hypocritical, if your only reaction is to do nothing, to actively prevent anything from being done and cloaking yourself in some fantasy of action by posting "Thoughts and Prayers!Thoughts and Prayers!", then you're not only part of the problem, you're a BIG part of the problem

 

 

 

 

Oh hell no! They don’t get off the easy! These “thoughts and prayers” by the NRA political clergy are utter bull****! It is a caluculated attempt to pretend to be contemplative people of faith who are fervently praying to the Divine for guidance, it’s a lie! The combination of T&P and “too soon to talk” is a calculated attempt to avoid taking action.

Make no mistake, Rubio et al are cashing HUGE checks from the NRA in order to advance the interests of gun manufacturers NOT the citizenry at large!

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6 hours ago, Larry said:

 

 

OK, please tell me your proposal - We're going to prevent mass shootings, in advance, by doing what, to who?  

 

Edit:  my post above may come across as being hostile, and I don't intend that. 

 

I support the the idea of improving access to mental health care. As a goal in itself. Just of the opinion that trying to tie that to reducing mass shootings is going to be impossible to prove, and is guaranteed to sweep up thousands (maybe millions) of people, per mass shooting prevented. 

 

 

 

It’s all good. It’s a tough emotional subject. 

I don’t think we will ever stop mass shootings in their entirety. I’m not that naive and the truth is that even if we really invested in mental health wellness, it may have very little overall impact in reducing these events. My suggestion is that we go down this path to find out. Maybe if we started at an early age with people, instead of just an annual physical, kids could be helped with all sorts of issues that arise whether it’s violent thoughts, drug use, over eating, cutting, etc. Same applies to adults and to help with the stresses people face. 

I’m talking about a really robust, across the country effort that covers lots of issues. We don’t do a good job at getting to the root cause of problems and we do a worse job at implementing preventive measures.

 

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17 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

On CNN right now former Florida Congressman Republican David Jolly is calling to “flip the House” he says that Republicans aren’t going to do anything about this, he is a Republican and is actively advocating for the Democratic control of the House.

It’s interesting because he also said that in Congress he had a bipartisan legislation that could pass (after Pulse) but Democratic leadership gave instructions to those in support to pull their support and refusal to work with him because they were targeting him in the upcoming election.

 

IF true...then holy crap

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I'll note, as our own little sign of how terribly commonplace this is becoming, that nobody even bothered to start a thread about the most deadly high school shooting in U.S. history.  It was just tacked on to the thead about that other deadly shooting.  No, not that one, the other one.  The Las Vegas one.  Oh yeah, that one.

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The FBI Was Warned About A School Shooting Threat From A YouTube User Named Nikolas Cruz In September

In September, a YouTube user named Nikolas Cruz left a comment on a video stating, "I'm going to be a professional school shooter." The video's creator alerted both the FBI and YouTube.

 

https://www.buzzfeed.com/briannasacks/the-fbi-was-warned-about-a-school-shooting-threat-from?utm_term=.tsxXXbaQXY#.kwxOOylqOE

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1 minute ago, Dan T. said:

I'll note, as our own little sign of how terribly commonplace this is becoming, that nobody even bothered to start a thread about the most deadly high school shooting in U.S. history.  It was just tacked on to the thead about that other deadly shooting.  No, not that one, the other one.  The Las Vegas one.  Oh yeah, that one.

Yeah, look back through this thread, we’ve just been talking about ALL of the school shootings in here. There’s just too many for them each to get their own thread. Plus, if we start a new thread for each then the SAME routines happen in each, at least here they’ve already been said. Cuts down on SOME of the repetition.

 

CNN has a kid on JROTC, let me tell you, I want this kid in my school with my kids!! This kid seriously has his **** together, I’ve never heard a more thoughtful and aware perspective from a student. This kid is as much of an operator/first responder type as I’ve ever seen. He seems like a take charge kid. Damn

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1 hour ago, DogofWar1 said:

I disagree with that analogy, I'd liken it more to banning tanks from being driven on streets.  Any car can speed, whereas in terms of guns, the AR-15 and its semi-automatic cousins are in a class all their own.  They're a little too different from your standard 9mm handgun to be likened only to a Mustang.

You just proved my point by saying "and its semi automatic cousins"

You'd have to outlaw all weapons with an extremely high muzzle velocity and high capacity magazines etc, etc. 

 

That's why I think my analogy is appropriate,  if you remove all guns from america (which isn't going to happen) you eliminate the problem,  just as removing all cars from the streets would eliminate speeding,  also not going to happen and is totally impractical. 

If you eliminate all high power sports car you can seriously reduce the impact of accidents caused from speeding but if you just get rid of the mustangs if won't do a damn thing because people will just drive corvettes. 

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19 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

It’s interesting because he also said that in Congress he had a bipartisan legislation that could pass (after Pulse) but Democratic leadership gave instructions to those in support to pull their support and refusal to work with him because they were targeting him in the upcoming election.

 

IF true...then holy crap

Can’t be true.  GOP bad.  DEMS good

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9 minutes ago, redskinss said:

You just proved my point by saying "and its semi automatic cousins"

You'd have to outlaw all weapons with an extremely high muzzle velocity and high capacity magazines etc, etc. 

 

That's why I think my analogy is appropriate,  if you remove all guns from america (which isn't going to happen) you eliminate the problem,  just as removing all cars from the streets would eliminate speeding,  also not going to happen and is totally impractical. 

If you eliminate all high power sports car you can seriously reduce the impact of accidents caused from speeding but if you just get rid of the mustangs if won't do a damn thing because people will just drive corvettes. 

 

What does it hurt getting rid of the AR-15? Why can't we start there and see what happens?

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1 minute ago, Kilmer17 said:

Can’t be true.  GOP bad.  DEMS good

Not entirely helpful.

I know you just had a heated exchange yesterday about this, but lets try and be productive.

 

There is culpability on BOTH sides, and I give zero craps about playing the blame game, that’s the rules they play now. The rules need to change to “whoever gets it done wins!” I don’t care if it’s GOP or Dem.

 

Just get it DONE!

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