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General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)


The Sisko

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Just now, twa said:

 

I'm willing to support universal background checks in exchange for arming select folk in schools and security upgrades....deal?

 

Let's make it hurt em

Why do you need a deal to do universal background checks?  This school had two armed police there, what do you want to do, arm the teachers?  (I agree every school should have at least two people armed as part of security detail, but I want them professionally trained)

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1 minute ago, twa said:

deal or no?

 

two school police are insufficient just like not requiring background checks,easily identified and accounted for.

you want to close the gaps or not?

Just come clean and say you want the teachers to have guns so I know what I'm agreeing to.  There needs to be a higher emphasis on physical security to prevent people from getting into the schools to begin with, then two cops will be enough.  

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Just now, Renegade7 said:

Just come clean and say you want the teachers to have guns so I know what I'm agreeing to.  There needs to be a higher emphasis on physical security to prevent people from getting into the schools to begin with, then two cops will be enough.  

 

 some teachers and staff ,yes

 

How will your security deal with fire alarm or bomb threats?

Gaps

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10 minutes ago, twa said:

 

 some teachers and staff ,yes

 

How will your security deal with fire alarm or bomb threats?

Gaps

Tell me what that has to do with school shootings first.  Seems like a lot of school districts have more policies in place for how to deal with those two then an active shooter situation.  

 

I want to know why once the school realized there was an active shooter they didn't have as many people getting into classrooms and lock their doors as they could.

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That’s fantastic, then the shooter just knows to take out the teacher first and he has the entire class to himself. And that doesn’t address the issue that it still won’t stop all deaths from happening it just might reduce the total number killed before a response is taken/shooter killed. In a perfect scenario of course. 

 

Also, what type of world do I want my kids living in? What type of free country will they inherit? Do I want them in a Country with 15 armed guards at every school, bank, grocery store etc, with metal detectors and bag searches at all of those places too? That seems like a greater loss of the the concept of freedom to me 

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Just now, Renegade7 said:

Tell me what that has to do with school shootings first.  Seems like a lot of school districts have more policies in place for how to deal with those two then an active shooter situation.  

 

the schools are soft targets, ya need to change the equation...even if it is just percieved

 

oh, I see what you were asking....locking doors and metal detectors are useless when a fire alarm or bomb threat has the kids massing outside.(not even fencing will help then, walls maybe)

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Give teachers guns and they become the first target.  Teacher down, class still screwed.  And unfortunately you can't exactly embed undercover marshals the way they do on planes.  Some ex-army 40 year old is gonna stick out among a bunch of high schoolers (*insert hello fellow kids meme here*).

 

And of course the whole system only lasts until some overworked/underpaid teacher goes nuts and shoots up a bunch of students.

 

Then you have to put armed guards everywhere.  And that's expensive.  We all know that won't be properly funded.  Which naturally will lead to a push to privatize all the schools, because private schools will be able to afford armed guards at every corner.

 

All the while if we just implemented smart gun control in the first place, the two armed guards would be enough.

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2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

That’s fantastic, then the shooter just knows to take out the teacher first and he has the entire class to himself. And that doesn’t address the issue that it still won’t stop all deaths from happening it just might reduce the total number killed before a response is taken/shooter killed. In a perfect scenario of course. 

 

Also, what type of world do I want my kids living in? What type of free country will they inherit? Do I want them in a Country with 15 armed guards at every school, bank, grocery store etc, with metal detectors and bag searches at all of those places too? That seems like a greater loss of the the concept of freedom to me 

Every classroom should have one of these and doors re-inforced:

 

image.jpeg.c5195df84479e985ab83bde40d943299.jpeg

 

15 armed guards everywhere sounds like overkill, no one is recommending that.  We are at the point that a lot more places then are right now should have at least one or two armed security personnel, imo.  The threat level has changed, we don't need to overreact, but we do need to adapt to this new reality.

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Just now, Momma There Goes That Man said:

That’s fantastic, then the shooter just knows to take out the teacher first and he has the entire class to himself.

 

and staff

I prefer they have to focus on more than killing children....and that they will be opposed with deadly force.

That fact seems to deter most all but the truly insane or fervently religious(same thing)

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1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

Every classroom should have one of these and doors re-inforced:

 

image.jpeg.c5195df84479e985ab83bde40d943299.jpeg

 

15 armed guards everywhere sounds like overkill, no one is recommending that.  We are at the point that a lot more places then are right now should have at least one or two armed security personnel, imo.  The threat level has changed, we don't need to overreact, but we do need to adapt to this new reality.

 

Two guards can’t effectively watch a school or prevent/stop a shooting. If you include the random teachers that will be packing. It’s going to end up being over 10 to even feel like progress was made in that area. 

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3 minutes ago, twa said:

 

the schools are soft targets, ya need to change the equation...even if it is just percieved

 

oh, I see what you were asking....locking doors and metal detectors are useless when a fire alarm or bomb threat has the kids massing outside.(not even fencing will help then, walls maybe)

Hmm... I still think we need to treat each situation with different solutions.  At the same time, it sounds like you're talking about an associate on the inside pulling a fire alarm so people will go outside and get shot from someone else?  That's not what we're dealing with right now, but I get where you're going with this.  This does not mean everything I suggested doesn't matter because of your hypothetical scenario.

2 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Two guards can’t effectively watch a school or prevent/stop a shooting. If you include the random teachers that will be packing. It’s going to end up being over 10 to even feel like progress was made in that area. 

We got to make it harder to get in the school to begin with, on top of securing the rooms.  Layers of security.  You got to have somebody there, I don't think its realistic to have every school have more then two.

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5 minutes ago, twa said:

 

and staff

I prefer they have to focus on more than killing children....and that they will be opposed with deadly force.

That fact seems to deter most all but the truly insane or fervently religious(same thing)

All you’ve done then is create an arms race. I like my odds being able to prepare before a shooting with an AR, easily bought bulletproof vest, against a math teacher with a glock.

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Just now, Renegade7 said:

Hmm... I still think we need to treat each situation with different solutions.  At the same time, it sounds like you're talking about an associate on the inside pulling a fire alarm so people will go outside and get shot from someone else?  That's not what we're dealing with right now, but I get where you're going with this.  This does not mean everything I suggested doesn't matter because of your hypothetical scenario.

 

Certainly not, I like your lock suggestion and it should be combined with isolating wings/areas

 

but just like background checks ,most things can be worked around.

good security is layered, and none is foolproof

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Ok, I have follow up questions

 

What if the teachers refuse to arm themselves?

 

People seem to think that @twa‘s comment that the underlying problem is that people want to kill other people is a good point.  Don’t really hear any ideas on how to stop that.  Any ideas or are we just giving up?  Are we gonna say “yeah, people just want to kill others, oh well”?  That’s all.

 

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Just now, AsburySkinsFan said:

All you’ve done then is create an arms race. I like my odds being able to prepare before a shooting with an AR, easily bought bulletproof vest, against a math teacher with a glock.

 

my future physics teacher child can put two in his eye at 25yrds. and teach math

 

arms race is not the problem though is it?

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If you think trying to remove guns from this equation at this point is the first best solution to this cultural and social problem you are wrong.  Why do some people in America want to kill en mass with guns?  Why is our society creating these monsters?  Why are our inner cities like shooting galleries? What are we doing wrong here?  

 

That is the discussion i would like to have, but it leads to inconvenient truths.  

 

 

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1 minute ago, Painkiller said:

If you think trying to remove guns from this equation at this point is the first best solution to this cultural and social problem you are wrong.  Why do some people in America want to kill en mass with guns?  Why is our society creating these monsters?  Why are our inner cities like shooting galleries? What are we doing wrong here?  

 

That is the discussion i would like to have, but it leads to inconvenient truths.  

 

 

 

Well, go.  I’m all ears.

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Just now, Springfield said:

 Are we gonna say “yeah, people just want to kill others, oh well”?  That’s all.

 

I don't think so.  There's a lot of factors at play, so I think what we have to be careful of is going into too deep on some ideas to point people think we've forgotten about the other ones.  I'm not sure how many people think that mental health isn't a factor, but I think that number isn't the majority.  

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49 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Think about it, though, we have no idea what the motive was for the Vegas murder.  At same time, US has nearly half the worlds guns and leads the world in mass shooting by a country mile.  I think a lot of people want to talk about everything, but each individual idea is shot down for being not enough by itself.  No ****, its like IT Security, like multiple layers of an onion.  You can't and should not rely on any one solution for anything.  You have to expect some to fail and have hope the other layers can deter enough to stop it from being too damn easy.  Right now its too damn easy.

 

You're right, there are definitely nuances and layers.

 

But at the root, the core, is a reason why.  Why'd that kid plot a school shooting today, what's so ****ed up about his world view that made him want to do that?  We'll never know why the Vegas guy did what he did.  But the kids that shot up the school today, we'll hear about it.

 

IIRC, the two that did Columbine, they were tired of being bullied.  They targeted the jocks and the popular kids.  

 

And so, when every kid that's been picked on or bullied, maybe is a little socially awkward and doesn't know how to stick up for himself or fit in...saw that Klebold and Harris did what they did and made national headlines...well, I think that's what's set this off.  All of a sudden you've given a green light to anyone that's ever thought of taking a gun to school and blowing away someone he didn't like.  Klebold and Harris made it ok. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Springfield said:

Ok, I have follow up questions

 

What if the teachers refuse to arm themselves?

 

People seem to think that @twa‘s comment that the underlying problem is that people want to kill other people is a good point.  Don’t really hear any ideas on how to stop that.  Any ideas or are we just giving up?  Are we gonna say “yeah, people just want to kill others, oh well”?  That’s all.

 

That gets back to my point, teachers are not LEO’s. The idea that arming them helps is naive. There is simply no other public security where ordinary staffers are armed. There aren’t guns in the nacho stands at the football game, the newspaper lady doesn’t have a glock in the airport.

Security is specialized.

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