General Mass Shooting Thread (originally Las Vegas Strip)

[Renegade7]

So much has happened from a mass murder standpoint since last time Dems had power to do anything about it.  There were at least 4 dems with F NRA ratings that replaces GOP members with A NRA rating in this last election, I do not think it's right to assume Dems will do nothing agan if in power again, not a solid correlation to stand on.

[Llevron]

47 minutes ago, Kilmer17 said:

I dont know man.  I think we are becoming less and less interested.  Almost desensitized to it.  We have mass shootings weekly (daily?) and it doesnt dominate the news anymore. It's b or c roll stories.

 

Naw you are right. And make a good point. Cause if we wait for something truly heinous like more kids being shot they may have used up that political capital by then. 

 

I actually see your point now, which is scary. Basically if it was 100% the dems (and Obama, in this case) top priority it would have happen before anything else. But it wasnt, so it didnt. 

 

Damn I hate agreeing with you lol

50 minutes ago, tshile said:

No maybe about it, I think it is exponentially harder now than it has been over the last 10 years, and the last 10 years were very difficult for gun control people. 

 

I I keep mentioning Trump and scotus, but you’re right his whole way of doing politics will make it harder as well. 

 

The deepest and hardest to heal wounds he has created are these. The tribal instincts he played masterfully and made so so much worse. That will be his legacy unfortunately for us. 

[Llevron]

1 hour ago, tshile said:

They’re going to use all their political capital going after trump and things trump did. They will conveniently not have enough political capital to do it, and they’ll again feel justified in that approach. 

 

Mmmm. I feel you here. Not sure I agree but I feel you. 

 

It's a hard question, for me personally, to decide which is more important. Even if I put it as the lives of children verses taking down Trump I can justify in my own mind that Trump is bad for everyone's life, including children. But then your next point....

 

1 hour ago, tshile said:

they won’t have enough to do anything about gun control. And even if they did, I doubt whatever they did would pass scotus, and if it was something that didn’t even get challenged to go to scotus I’m guessing most of you would consider it a nothing burger. 

 

This is where I'm worried and hopeful. I agree they wont have enough left after they do what they sound like they are gonna do to Trump to do anything about guns. 

 

Begs the question, do you play nice with Trump and keep him caged/make him successful rather than waste time and resources taking him down? Say what you want about the dude, he can make repubs do anything. And he wouldn't be to proud to take an idea from Pelosi, say it his, and sell it to his folks to add to his legacy. 

 

But if you do that are the Dem voters mature enough to get the message and reward you for it? 

 

This is some alternate dimension **** now. 

 

1 hour ago, tshile said:

I realize this feels like we’re blaming the wrong people, but we’re not. No one has really come to the defense of the GOP in this thread in a very long time. A random person that gets chased away here and there, but that’s it. There’s really no one arguing the role the GOP and NRA have played in this. 

 

Naw I actually feel where yall are coming from for once. 

 

I expect a shirt. 

[Kilmer17]

3 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Mmmm. I feel you here. Not sure I agree but I feel you. 

 

It's a hard question, for me personally, to decide which is more important. Even if I put it as the lives of children verses taking down Trump I can justify in my own mind that Trump is bad for everyone's life, including children. But then your next point....

 

 

This is where I'm worried and hopeful. I agree they wont have enough left after they do what they sound like they are gonna do to Trump to do anything about guns. 

 

Begs the question, do you play nice with Trump and keep him caged/make him successful rather than waste time and resources taking him down? Say what you want about the dude, he can make repubs do anything. And he wouldn't be to proud to take an idea from Pelosi, say it his, and sell it to his folks to add to his legacy. 

 

But if you do that are the Dem voters mature enough to get the message and reward you for it? 

 

This is some alternate dimension **** now. 

 

 

Naw I actually feel where yall are coming from for once. 

 

I expect a shirt. 

We're out of shirts.  We only have the mexican ponchos we stole from the caravan.  Shmedium?

[tshile]

@Llevron

i can’t in good conscience recommend the dems go easy on trump to get him to help on gun reform. 

 

I cant chide them for not trying to do that either. 

 

His word is garbage. It’s not worth a thing. He may double cross you, and worse it may or may not even be intentional. The dude’s word is just garbage. 

 

I would trade the mueller investigation for him drumming up support for serious reform on guns. I wouldn’t be happy to let him skate, but I’d be stoked to see something meaningful happen on gun control. I would consider that a huge long term win for a small short term cost. My kids aren’t going to give two ****s about who trump was, but everything we do (or don’t do...) in regards to guns may shape their lives. 

 

I imagine suggesting such a trade, much less executing it, would be illegal

 

Edited November 13, 2018 by tshile

[Llevron]

That's a good point. Probably is illegal. And as you said he would probably double cross them anyway. Or try to. 

 

****ed up situation we find ourselves in smh. 

[TheGreatBuzz]

3 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

So much has happened from a mass murder standpoint since last time Dems had power to do anything about it.  There were at least 4 dems with F NRA ratings that replaces GOP members with A NRA rating in this last election, I do not think it's right to assume Dems will do nothing agan if in power again, not a solid correlation to stand on.

I think the problem is even if Dems get control, can you even get them to agree on gun control.  Like @tshile (think it was him) even said, it is an easy campaign line to say "keep bad people from getting guns" but when you get to the details, no one can get on the same page.  Unfortunately, I think Obamacare will be the last piece of major legislation you will see passed for a LONG time.  I don't think you are getting enough people on the same page to pass something large like that.  

 

I think this latest case does show a good guy with a gun is helpful.  And this cop was wrong.  I think that cop was probably an accident waiting to happen.  Maybe getting some info out on how that good guy should have acted and how the cops should respond would be helpful.  Or we could all just keep yelling at clouds.  

[Renegade7]

7 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I think the problem is even if Dems get control, can you even get them to agree on gun control. 

 

I don't believe its as bad as some thinks in regards to our divide on this issue in regards to what we do agree on. 

 

Think we've had this convo before with some polls and stats, maybe I'll start a thread about that (I don't even remember what page that was or thread, but I know we talked about it).  A lot of what I can see pushing for, and this is my line for now, is looking at what some other states are doing that just make sense and has very high bipartisain support, like universal background checks and closing the gun show loophole.  There are some policies the population as a whole right now won't support, but if Dems are patient the demographics will change and they might be more open to it later down the road. 

 

I don't think NRA ratings are a fair assessment of someone's feelings on gun control, we need something else, its too tilted towards absolutism, which is not where we should be on this issue.

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

just make sense and has very high bipartisain support, like universal background checks and closing the gun show loophole

I think it has been argued, rather accurately, that the vast majority of these shootings would not have been affected by these laws though.  You could debate what all a background check would include but you start getting differences there.  To stop, or at least curtail, these events you need stronger laws then these.  And that is where all the differences start coming out.  Then you end up with something like the Clinton-era assault weapon ban which when closely examined was really just a scary looking weapons ban.  And if they actually do get increased gun control passed, they better hit the right mark with the first shot.  Because if they pass those laws and these shootings don't go down, GOP will call it a victory for them and have more support to loosen gun control instead.

 

I think the only way they could possibly get this increased control to work (and honestly I think it would require too much coordination) is if they came up with some common sense increases and then find a way to make them nation-wide.  Meaning some states would end up loosening their laws while others strengthen.  That would give both sides a way to claim victory.

[Renegade7]

1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I think it has been argued, rather accurately, that the vast majority of these shootings would not have been affected by these laws though.  You could debate what all a background check would include but you start getting differences there.  To stop, or at least curtail, these events you need stronger laws then these.  And that is where all the differences start coming out.  Then you end up with something like the Clinton-era assault weapon ban which when closely examined was really just a scary looking weapons ban.  And if they actually do get increased gun control passed, they better hit the right mark with the first shot.  Because if they pass those laws and these shootings don't go down, GOP will call it a victory for them and have more support to loosen gun control instead.

 

I think the only way they could possibly get this increased control to work (and honestly I think it would require too much coordination) is if they came up with some common sense increases and then find a way to make them nation-wide.  Meaning some states would end up loosening their laws while others strengthen.  That would give both sides a way to claim victory.

 

I mean, I gave two examples because I said I'd come back to it, not that that would be enough. No one program is going to stop any of this, even compromising our values won't stop it. 

 

All we can do is slow it down, discourage it, be more prepared for it.  I've said stuff like every firearm should be registered along with ammunition and that information should be accessible by each state and the feds.  Also added you should need a doctor's note to get a gun, like from a psychologist or psychiatrist, as well.

 

An assault weapon ban like the 90s would be a bad idea, if done the same way it will just be confusing, if done correctly, the backlash will kill it and stunt the movement to address this issue.  We aren't ready to ban AR style rifles, we just aren't.

 

Again, there are middle grounds here that plenty of people agree on, and biting off more then the dems can chew would be a bad idea.  Predicting that's what they are going to do because they don't agree on what should be on the plate I don't agree with.

[TheGreatBuzz]

12 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I mean, I gave two examples because I said I'd come back to it, not that that would be enough. No one program is going to stop any of this, even compromising our values won't stop it. 

I don't want this to turn into the Gun control thread so I'm not going to debate the merit of your other recommendations.  I will go back to the point that you aren't going to get enough people, even with Dem control, to agree on what controls need to be implemented.  Universal background checks and closing the gun show loophole have a chance because of broad support but they won't do crap.  Assuming some of your recommendations would actually help, do you see any of those actually getting passed?  I don't.  Hell, the laws in Dem controlled states would struggle to have stopped many of these shootings.

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I don't want this to turn into the Gun control thread so I'm not going to debate the merit of your other recommendations.  I will go back to the point that you aren't going to get enough people, even with Dem control, to agree on what controls need to be implemented.  Universal background checks and closing the gun show loophole have a chance because of broad support but they won't do crap.  Assuming some of your recommendations would actually help, do you see any of those actually getting passed?  I don't.  Hell, the laws in Dem controlled states would struggle to have stopped many of these shootings.

 

The doctor's note thing, absolutely.  That's the compromise on mental health on this issue, it just makes sense.  Biggest problem I have with the mental health thing is that that seems the second most common denominator right behind the gun.  Having said that, mental health issues by itself isn't the cause, its the obsession with violence that i'm noticing over and over again and NO ONE SAYING ANYTHING until its too late.

 

There was another mass shooting where the shooter got a gun because he was supposed to be banned but that information was not disseminated correctly.  A way for that information to be easily be accessible would make a difference and will happen.

 

It is really hard to try to separate what to do about mass shootings from gun control, I get that.  I think I'll just step away from this thread, but if it comes back to the Dems not being able to do anything about gun control, I guess I'll find a better way to respond.  If we're going to say the Dems aren't going to do anything about gun control we should probably have it in another thread so the discussion can be had in full.

[Passepartout]

Yeah as really it is about trying to not just realize it is not guns that are the problems. It is that of the people with mental illness or hatred of the world and taken it out of their hands or noticing red flags like mental illness or hatred. Preventing tragedy before it starts.

[visionary]

 

[Renegade7]

3 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

 

 

Jesus Christ.  I'm sorry, but this is just as bad as any threat from lone wolves from ISIS and we need to get serious about devoting the same resources.  

[Mr. Sinister]

Yep. This obviously is not over yet.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Not sure how many of you watched the show Adam Ruins Everything but I like it.  Anyways, he is doing an episode on what both sides have wrong regarding guns.  I'm interested in watching it.

[Springfield]

24 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Not sure how many of you watched the show Adam Ruins Everything but I like it.  Anyways, he is doing an episode on what both sides have wrong regarding guns.  I'm interested in watching it.

 

I like him, even if he seems to oversimplify things a bit.  He’s got an interesting take.  I assume that he’s gonna say something like, “There isn’t one thing, but a multitude of things that will need to be done.  Both mental health reforms and gun law reforms.”

 

 

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

[Chew]

1 hour ago, visionary said:

 

 

 

Look at the flowers, Matt.

 

[skinny21]

Domestic abuse is a big one, IMO.  Certainly not a complete fix, and I don’t know how to address it.  I’d think police unions would get behind that and a database, which appeals to the “law and order” crowd.  Allowing the ATF to digitize records and putting (a lot) more resources (back) to looking at white supremacists are checks in my book too.  Again, won’t fix things, but they seem like solid steps in the right direction.  

 

I’m no expert on the issue of course... not even the keyboard kind.  

 

[Renegade7]

1 hour ago, Chew said:

 

 

Look at the flowers, Matt.

 

 

Cause, not really.  Involved, even a symptom of the same issue being our obsession with violence. Absolutely.  A lot of people consider huge swaths of the population zombies already and just looking for an excuse or reason, see how many jokes in tailgate about "thinning the herd".  People talk like that because think think it's necessary and hope it doesn't involve them going down as well.  When people start becoming expandable as a whole, picking which ones aren't far behind.

[bcl05]

Active shooter refresh time.  Now at Chicago’s Mercy hospital.  I despise this part of our culture.

[purbeast]

Just another Monday in the USA.