Rdskns2000

Presidential Election:11/3/20- On to Iowa 2/3 & New Hampshire 2/11

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Beto needs to show that in the polls and he hasn't. He's not going to get many more chances.

 

It's clear that the front runners are Sanders, Biden and Warren.  Sanders will have his 15 to 20% no matter what. So he's there to the end.  Warren now has about another 20% roughly.  Her and Sanders are splitting the progressive vote right now.  Progressive voters will have to chose among those 2 soon.   Biden is leading in large part due to older African American voters.  IF one of the other candidates can break into that, then Biden doesn't have a chance.  Honestly, I don't know why those people don't see Biden is a horrible candidate. He's even worse than Hillary.  For people like Beto, Kamala, Pete & Corey to even have a shot; they really need to have Biden collapse.  Sadly, that collapse might not happen until the votes are taken in February.  I think Pete and Kamala will have the money to still be in the race then.  Will anyone else?   

 

Since Tom Steyer qualified for the October debate, there will likely be 2 nights.  With 11 or 12 candidates, that will probably be a last chance for some of these 2nd tier candidates. You really need to be more than 2%, probably at least 5% or more. 

Speaking of debates, I wonder if some network will be willing to have a GOP debate for Trump's 3 challengers.  You know Fox won't do it but some network must be willing to try at least once, for a GOP debate.  

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40 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Warren is not a democratic socialist, she's a social democrat that wants to save capitalism.  This conversation is impossible if we don't talk about what socialism is, and the media is not doing us any favors on that.  The only actual socialist on the stage is Bernie, having some more programs that would be considered socialist does no justice to the reality and most countries already have some.

 

I agree on everything except one small thing.  I don’t think Bernie is even a socialist.  He simply wants the most social plans of the field.  He might call himself a socialist, but I don’t think he is in the true sense of the term.

 

ANY nominee, even Biden, is going to be called a socialist by Trump, Tucker Carlson and all the other jackoffs idiots who lead these mouth breathers around.  I don’t know if ignoring it is the best play, but it’s what they’ve been doing so far.

41 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Beto is going to be the Vice President nominee, imo.

 

I’m fine with that.  He had a great debate from what I saw.

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7 minutes ago, Springfield said:

 

I agree on everything except one small thing.  I don’t think Bernie is even a socialist.  He simply wants the most social plans of the field.  He might call himself a socialist, but I don’t think he is in the true sense of the term.

 

ANY nominee, even Biden, is going to be called a socialist by Trump, Tucker Carlson and all the other jackoffs idiots who lead these mouth breathers around.  I don’t know if ignoring it is the best play, but it’s what they’ve been doing so far.

1

 

That's tough because the reality is there haven't been many examples of purely socialist countries, even the ones we have left.  There's a certain threshold this country doesn't want to cross, but its really complicated when the countries want to model us after in Europe say they aren't Socialist then countries like India say in their constitution they are a socialist country.  

 

There's a difference between Communisim and Marxism, Marxism failed, and China eventually figured out the way to boast their economy and still maintain some type of control was to boast capitalism while keeping their finger on top of it.  The fact that most Americans can't explain the difference is actually understandable because it isn't always super straight forward, and all the more reason, imo, to ignore the noise from the right on taking us all the way done a path that lead to authoritarianism and full blown communisim.  There's no one on stage that wants that, but that slippery slope arguement will never go away as a political talking point.

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25 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

That's tough because the reality is there haven't been many examples of purely socialist countries, even the ones we have left.  There's a certain threshold this country doesn't want to cross, but its really complicated when the countries want to model us after in Europe say they aren't Socialist then countries like India say in their constitution they are a socialist country.  

 

There's a difference between Communisim and Marxism, Marxism failed, and China eventually figured out the way to boast their economy and still maintain some type of control was to boast capitalism while keeping their finger on top of it.  The fact that most Americans can't explain the difference is actually understandable because it isn't always super straight forward, and all the more reason, imo, to ignore the noise from the right on taking us all the way done a path that lead to authoritarianism and full blown communisim.  There's no one on stage that wants that, but that slippery slope arguement will never go away as a political talking point.

 

All the while the Right ignores and in fact encourages support for authoritarianism, totalitarianism, and fascism from their low information voters.

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1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Warren is not a democratic socialist, she's a social democrat that wants to save capitalism.  This conversation is impossible if we don't talk about what socialism is, and the media is not doing us any favors on that.  The only actual socialist on the stage is Bernie, having some more programs that would be considered socialist does no justice to the reality and most countries already have some.

 

Bernie isn’t a socialist either. He is a Democratic Socialist but the American public’s understanding of the political spectrum is warped and broken. That includes members of this community.

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

You can shove that statement up your ass. Don't ever come at me like that. Trump needs to go and every Dem is better than Trump. 

No I won’t. 

 

You dont care care about those issues. Instead of looking at Biden for that absurd and offensive answer he gave, you chose to attack people criticizing that answer. 

 

And Castro is 1,000% right for questioning Biden’s understanding of the details of his policy/mental amplitude. He is running for POTUS. What will Trump do to Biden if he can’t take someone trying him under friendlier terms.

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"In interviews, many former White House and Treasury officials say they consider Warren a self-serving grandstander who cast them as villains while they were trying to save the global economy from catastrophe."

 

Just observing, it's possible that there's some truth in that, at least depending on the timing. 

 

Just saying, it's possible that when the world is on the brink of a Great Depression-style economic collapse due to banks being over-leveraged, might not be the best time to yell "Now's our chance to really screw those banks".  

Edited by Larry

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She was fighting to keep the banks from screwing us!   Especially when it was the banks screwing over us that caused the the Great Depression-style economic collapse.

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Lot of the sources in that article are probably for Biden, happy to serve up a juicy quote that might reflect poorly on a surging Warren.

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3 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

Bernie isn’t a socialist either. He is a Democratic Socialist but the American public’s understanding of the political spectrum is warped and broken. That includes members of this community.

No I won’t. 

 

You dont care care about those issues. Instead of looking at Biden for that absurd and offensive answer he gave, you chose to attack people criticizing that answer. 

 

And Castro is 1,000% right for questioning Biden’s understanding of the details of his policy/mental amplitude. He is running for POTUS. What will Trump do to Biden if he can’t take someone trying him under friendlier terms.

 

You aren't worth getting a short vacation from here. No need to have a conversation with me again until you apologize for making that kind of BS claim. 

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3 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

Bernie isn’t a socialist either. He is a Democratic Socialist but the American public’s understanding of the political spectrum is warped and broken. That includes members of this community.

 

 

I'm going to disagree with there, we actually had an entire thread on what Democratic Socialism was.  Socialism was never meant to be this terrible thing, democratic socialism is the agreement of the entire society to do it and avoid the shift into authoritarianism that so many that went all in on socialism did.

 

 

There's debate on how socialist Bernie is, but he's absolutely crossed the threshold in my opinion that he's not a capitalist anymore.  He refuses to clarify that he is, closest you get is clarifying he's NOT a capitalist, when Warren does everytime it comes up now, saying she is a capitalist.  That will hurt him no matter how popular his policies are among the left, Warren figured that out.  This revolution he wants is the collective buy-in to what he believe we should be doing, and he can't even get that in the party he's tried to infiltrate.

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7 hours ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Sorry Biden fans, he will not beat Trump.  We already have one mentally incompetent president.  Joe Biden is not mentally capable of handling the presidency.  He's too old. You see it daily that he doesn't have the mental capabilities anymore. Trump will eat his lunch.

I agree that Trump will get re-elected but only because people tend to vote for the status quo if the economy is doing fairly well.  I can't see Trump eating anyone's lunch in a debate, even if its against a Biden who has lost his fastball. 

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51 minutes ago, JCB said:

Lot of the sources in that article are probably for Biden, happy to serve up a juicy quote that might reflect poorly on a surging Warren.

 

Agreed, that crap on the seatbelt was a reach if every I've seen one.

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40 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

You aren't worth getting a short vacation from here. No need to have a conversation with me again until you apologize for making that kind of BS claim. 

Like I said earlier, just be real and say you don’t care about those issues that were brought up. Would have saved us both time and your hurt feelings.

 

27 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm going to disagree with there, we actually had an entire thread on what Democratic Socialism was.  Socialism was never meant to be this terrible thing, democratic socialism is the agreement of the entire society to do it and avoid the shift into authoritarianism that so many that went all in on socialism did.

 

 

There's debate on how socialist Bernie is, but he's absolutely crossed the threshold in my opinion that he's not a capitalist anymore.  He refuses to clarify that he is, closest you get is clarifying he's NOT a capitalist, when Warren does everytime it comes up now, saying she is a capitalist.  That will hurt him no matter how popular his policies are among the left, Warren figured that out.  This revolution he wants is the collective buy-in to what he believe we should be doing, and he can't even get that in the party he's tried to infiltrate.

 

When Bernie proposes nationalizing all industries, then I will believe he is a socialist. 

 

I think he was when he was younger but moved moved rightward as he got into politics.

 

From my understanding, a democratic socialist is the furthest you go without saying you are a socialist.

 

I think Warren is more of a social democrat, which is what many Dems were after the prosperity period until Raygun.

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1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

When Bernie proposes nationalizing all industries, then I will believe he is a socialist. 

 

I think he was when he was younger but moved moved rightward as he got into politics.

1

 

I recommend re-reading that thread I posted, you posted in it, too.  Democratic Socialist don't believe in Capitalism, but they don't agree with the central planning of the economy the way USSR did.  What they believe, and you can go to their website and says this, is they want a combination of private businesses turning their employees into shareholders/stakeholders instead of sole proprieters (an attempt at as much decentralization as possible) and aspects of the economy that make sense being run by the government, such as defense, healthcare, and debatably the energy sector.

 

https://www.dsausa.org/about-us/what-is-democratic-socialism/

 

Quote

Doesn’t socialism mean that the government will own and run everything?


Democratic socialists do not want to create an all-powerful government bureaucracy. But we do not want big corporate bureaucracies to control our society either. Rather, we believe that social and economic decisions should be made by those whom they most affect.

 

Today, corporate executives who answer only to themselves and a few wealthy stockholders make basic economic decisions affecting millions of people. Resources are used to make money for capitalists rather than to meet human needs. We believe that the workers and consumers who are affected by economic institutions should own and control them.

 

Social ownership could take many forms, such as worker-owned cooperatives or publicly owned enterprises managed by workers and consumer representatives. Democratic socialists favor as much decentralization as possible. While the large concentrations of capital in industries such as energy and steel may necessitate some form of state ownership, many consumer-goods industries might be best run as cooperatives.

 

Democratic socialists have long rejected the belief that the whole economy should be centrally planned. While we believe that democratic planning can shape major social investments like mass transit, housing, and energy, market mechanisms are needed to determine the demand for many consumer goods.

 

 

What you are talking about is the age old question of "if the government is supposed to be of the people, shouldn't the government running a business count as the community controlling the production of goods?"  That's where socialism can start to splinter, like other overarching ideologies and economic systems.

 

Quote

From my understanding, a democratic socialist is the furthest you go without saying you are a socialist.

 

I think Warren is more of a social democrat, which is what many Dems were after the prosperity period until Raygun.

 

 

She is a social democrat, people that want to fix capitalism instead of give up on it.  The whole "go as far as you can without saying your a socialist", I don't know if I'd go that far, and historically that movement goes the slowburn route of focusing on the good stuff to help keep the slide back from happening once the stuff that makes people uncomfortable starts to come in.  It's like adding pre-existing conditions to ACA helping to protect it from getting completely thrown out.  

 

Because Democratic Socialism is a buy-in ideology, I don't believe Bernie will ever propose a law requiring that all employees get shares of a company or forcing every company to have boards of decision makers.  He'll set the table for someone after him to push for that collective transition.

 

 I just don't know if this country in particular can ever fully buy-in to democratic socialism after all capitalism has done for our economy, for better and worse. It would be a transition of businesses choosing to do that, a law passed to force it would be hell to enforce and eventually backfire.  How else do you keep that ball rolling once you decide to enforce it if you allow the population to vote for different government officials that would overturn that law, you can't allow that, boom, authoritarianism. 

 

Having said that, theres threshold where you could call us a democratic socialist country, less then 1% of US business right now are publicly shared for perepective.

Edited by Renegade7
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56 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Like I said earlier, just be real and say you don’t care about those issues that were brought up. Would have saved us both time and your hurt feelings.

 

 

When Bernie proposes nationalizing all industries, then I will believe he is a socialist. 

 

I think he was when he was younger but moved moved rightward as he got into politics.

 

From my understanding, a democratic socialist is the furthest you go without saying you are a socialist.

 

I think Warren is more of a social democrat, which is what many Dems were after the prosperity period until Raygun.

 

**** you and your self-righteous bull ****. I ain't having it. 

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1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Like I said earlier, just be real and say you don’t care about those issues that were brought up. Would have saved us both time and your hurt feelings.

 

Enough.  If you think @Hersh doesn't care about those issues, I don't know what board you've been reading.  You can care about those issues and still think attacks on Biden are going beyond the pale.  The world is not always binary.

 

14 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

**** you and your self-righteous bull ****. I ain't having it. 

 

Not worth losing your cool over it.  Take a deep breath and step away from this discussion.  Other people's opinion on the internet doesn't change the core of who you are.  FWIW, even though I don't necessarily agree with the concern on attack on Biden, I would never accuse you of not caring about those issues.  Your years of posts speaks to who you are and what you care about.  And even that is a small slice of the pie.

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53 minutes ago, bearrock said:

Enough.  If you think @Hersh doesn't care about those issues, I don't know what board you've been reading.  You can care about those issues and still think attacks on Biden are going beyond the pale.  The world is not always binary.

Miss me with that.

 

Biden gave that BS answer to the MODERATOR’S question about his 40 year old quote saying reparations aren’t needed.

 

Follow along, moe.

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

**** you and your self-righteous bull ****. I ain't having it. 

Put the mirror down 

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7 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Miss me with that.

 

Biden gave that BS answer to the MODERATOR’S question about his 40 year old quote saying reparations aren’t needed.

 

Follow along, moe.

Put the mirror down 

 

You can attack Biden to your heart's content without impugning Hersh.  If you don't think so, then I'm just going to say I disagree with you and you feel free to write or think whatever you'd like about me.

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13 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

You can attack Biden to your heart's content without impugning Hersh.  If you don't think so, then I'm just going to say I disagree with you and you feel free to write or think whatever you'd like about me.

I did attack Biden, I posted the article. Then @Hersh attacked the writer and those who agree with it FOR CRITICIZING Biden’s answer. (And he gave that answer to a black woman)

 

Again, you aren’t even following.

Edited by BenningRoadSkin

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37 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I did attack Biden, I posted the article. Then @Hersh attacked the writer and those who agree with it FOR CRITICIZING Biden’s answer. (And he gave that answer to a black woman)

 

Again, you aren’t even following.

Constructive criticism:

 

Nobody cares if you're right if you go about it the wrong way.

 

Bidens answer made me mad uncomfortable, but you're making a mistake trying to shame @Hersh into agreeing with you versus trying to convince him you're right that that was completely unacceptable the answer Biden gave. 

 

I disagree with Hersh's take on that answer Biden gave in the debate, but nobody cares now and you keep doing that.  Your smart enough to have these discussions without causing people to hate you at the same time, whether you care is up to you.

 

Ya know, i was hoping when you posted that video that we'd start discussing the difference between emphasizing social workers versus creating an office in the White House to combat institutional racism like Booker proposed.  Missed opportunity here, for real.

Edited by Renegade7
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