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Presidential Election:11/3/20- On to Iowa 2/3 & New Hampshire 2/11

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42 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

his is the essential premise of the WaPo article on Biden's gaffes that I posted above.  The main argument is that misstatments don't matter because they don't tell you how a person would govern if elected President in 2020.  

I wouldn't care about gaffes if he wasn't 74 years old and sounds like his fastball is gone.

 

Dismissing Biden's gaffes because certain people dismiss Trump's gaffes is allowing for people who mentally don't appear to be all the way there to hold the highest office.

49 minutes ago, Springfield said:

 

Was watching Real Time yesterday.  Bill Maher made a great point regarding past history.  It shouldn’t matter.  Current positions matter.  Kamala Harris, used to be against legalization of marijuana, now she’s for it.  Obama was against gay marriage, then he was for it (thanks to Biden).  Who cares about bussing in 1972.  Who cares about working with segregationists.  None of that stuff matters right now.

You realize no one would be talking about Biden working with segregationists if he didn't bring it up?

 

Or that he still believes he was right about busing? He never said he made the wrong decision.

 

You can't just dismiss a person's past record because of what they said they would do when putting in a position when they have no track record of changing their stance. 

 

Not to take it to this low of a level, but employers won't hire felons who committed their crime(s) 20-25 years ago even though they have shown they are a completely different person from that incident. Yet we are now supposed to use lower standards for the President of the United States. When you dismiss the past, you deserve every bad thing happens to you in the future.

 

If Biden, Harris, etc explained their past actions but explained how they evolved, I think that would be fine. But for them to say, "yeah, I do not believe that now despite believing it for most of my adult life," then people have the right to call BS.

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8 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

The bold part, I think, is the key thing.  If Trump said it, we'd assume he's lying because he always lies.  The Obama/Fox thing doesn't really matter because Fox isn't a legitimate purveyor of news.  When Biden does it, it's fairly safe to assume he just misspoke because he has a long history of misspeaking.  The difference is the level of intent, of maliciousness, between those 2 things.  Trump lying is intentionally meant to mislead, it's not an accident.  Biden misspeaking is a lot less malicious and it doesn't tell you much about what he'd try to do as President.  Yes, he's just misremembering a date.  It happens.

 

This isn't coming from a place that I feel Biden needs to be protected.  The fact that he's prone to saying things wrong should get priced in.  He's not my first (or second) choice for the nomination.   I just don't think this type of thing matters very much because it doesn't say much about him other than his internal filter sucks, and always has. 

 

I mean, I get what you're saying, I'm just concerned about trying to normalize his gaffes because he's the likely nominee or because Trump is worse.  Like you, I'm not planning to vote for him in the primary but additionally feel like I'd be holding my nose again if he is the nominee.  We can do better, there's like 19 other candidates.

2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I wouldn't care about gaffes if he wasn't 74 years old and sounds like his fastball is gone.

 

Dismissing Biden's gaffes because certain people dismiss Trump's gaffes is allowing for people who mentally don't appear to be all the way there to hold the highest office.

1

 

Pretty much, we should not be saying the bar has been lowered when it never should've been that low in the first place and still shouldn't.

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3 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I wouldn't care about gaffes if he wasn't 74 years old and sounds like his fastball is gone.

 

Dismissing Biden's gaffes because certain people dismiss Trump's gaffes is allowing for people who mentally don't appear to be all the way there to hold the highest office.

You realize no one would be talking about Biden working with segregationists if he didn't bring it up?

 

 

Biden's been doing this for decades.  It's not a function of his age, it's a function of his personality.  

 

My issue with the segregationist thing is that, while I understand he was trying to use an extreme example of himself working across the aisle, gaffes aside, I think it is extremely troubling that he thinks he can just have a ****ing beer with Mitch McConnell or whatever and work out an agenda that isn't garbage.  In other words, it's not that he said a dumb thing, it's that he really believes a dumb thing.  

5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I mean, I get what you're saying, I'm just concerned about trying to normalize his gaffes because he's the likely nominee or because Trump is worse.  Like you, I'm not planning to vote for him in the primary but additionally feel like I'd be holding my nose again if he is the nominee.  We can do better, there's like 19 other candidates.

 

Totally agree.  I guess I I'm hoping that Biden's gaffes don't get normalized, they just aren't equated to Trump's whoppers and general terribleness.

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4 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

They should do it like MLB and have the top 5 in, but then have a play-in, head to head, winner moves on to the next round debate just for the next two.

 

America's Got Candidates.  Recruit some judges, vote one off per show.  

 

3 hours ago, Cooked Crack said:

Super Tuesday state poll. Open primary. Bernie is like "fetch", it isn't going to happen.

 

Boy, I'm really curious to know how a state that's guaranteed to vote R, will have only one R candidate on the ballot, and allows R's to vote in the D primary, is going to vote.  

 

2 hours ago, Cooked Crack said:

That's a less than twa worthy tweet. Lets not get suckered in. Already been addressed.

 

Yeah, he got the wrong mass school shooting.  

 

After the first 100, tough to keep track.  

 

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9 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Biden's been doing this for decades.  It's not a function of his age, it's a function of his personality.  

 

My issue with the segregationist thing is that, while I understand he was trying to use an extreme example of himself working across the aisle, gaffes aside, I think it is extremely troubling that he thinks he can just have a ****ing beer with Mitch McConnell or whatever and work out an agenda that isn't garbage.  In other words, it's not that he said a dumb thing, it's that he really believes a dumb thing.  

And in the past he was lambasted and ridiculed for his gaffes and mistakes. Now we have an op-ed in the Washington Post urging everyone to excuse Biden's gaffes.

 

And the issue isn't just that he is gaffe-prone, its that he doesn't sound like he is all the way there. His campaign staff don't let him go out as much as other candidates, etc. 

 

For you second point, that was my biggest issue with Biden too and the undercurrent of his message. He says he can bring Washington together and thus pretending he wasn't VP for eight years, six of them were with a very divisive congress. Now this is where the segregationist stuff from a racial context matters: he is tugging on Obama's legacy to boost his while simultaneously suggested that he can do what Obama didn't do. What's different? 

 

I am not calling Biden a racist. I just think he is a complete stooge, who is lazy, and has shown that he is willing to sell out working people.

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@twa your boy know what time it is : )

 

https://newrepublic.com/article/154723/texas-bracing-blue-wave-2020-yes-texas

 

Quote

Suddenly, Texas Republicans are on the defensive in their national fortress—and they’re both talking and acting like it. “The tectonic plates shifted in Texas in 2018,” Senator John Cornyn, the powerful Republican who’s facing reelection in 2020 (with just a 37 percent approval rating) said earlier this year. Cornyn has been sounding the alarms ever since November, warning national Republicans against complacency and spelling out the dire consequences for his party if they can’t stave off the Democratic surge: “If Texas turns back to a Democratic state, which it used to be, then we’ll never elect another Republican [president] in my lifetime,” said Cornyn.

 

Quote

But nobody in Texas, aside from a few blinkered Republicans, believes that Democrats won’t continue to loosen the Republican stranglehold in 2020. At least half a dozen Republican seats in Congress will be ripe for the taking, and Democrats have a realistic chance of capturing the nine Republican seats in the state House they need to gain a majority—just in time for the next round of redistricting in 2021. If they regain a toehold of power in Austin, and can prevent Republicans from having total control over gerrymandering, Democrats could turn Texas blue in a hurry; if not, it’ll probably be a more gradual process over the next decade, with strict voter ID and other forms of suppression still intact, and districts artificially tilted in Republicans’ favor.

 

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29 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

And in the past he was lambasted and ridiculed for his gaffes and mistakes. Now we have an op-ed in the Washington Post urging everyone to excuse Biden's gaffes.

 

And the issue isn't just that he is gaffe-prone, its that he doesn't sound like he is all the way there. His campaign staff don't let him go out as much as other candidates, etc. 

 

For you second point, that was my biggest issue with Biden too and the undercurrent of his message. He says he can bring Washington together and thus pretending he wasn't VP for eight years, six of them were with a very divisive congress. Now this is where the segregationist stuff from a racial context matters: he is tugging on Obama's legacy to boost his while simultaneously suggested that he can do what Obama didn't do. What's different? 

 

I am not calling Biden a racist. I just think he is a complete stooge, who is lazy, and has shown that he is willing to sell out working people.

 

Yes, we're aware that progressives Bernie people are trying to figure out what is going to stick.  Racist, stooge, lazy, sellout of the working class, hates Obama, all good places to start I guess. 

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John be wanting your money renegade7  just like the Dems whispering Texas is up for grabs :ols:

 

If the voters are stupid enough to embrace the Dems here so be it, but I don't see it.,

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Harry Enten, now at CNN, formerly at 538, wrote a very similar article late last week.

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/08/politics/could-texas-go-blue-2020/index.html

 

Quote

Texas politics are in the spotlight again this week. A number of House Republicans from the state have announced their retirements, and, after a mass shooting in El Paso this past weekend, Beto O'Rourke tussled with President Donald Trump over differing responses to the shootings.

 

In the backdrop of these developments is a Texas electorate that seems to be divided much more than it used to be.


It's a state with a voter base that seems to rapidly be shifting toward the center -- and I believe it could go Democratic in next year's presidential election for the first time since 1976.
I was once a skeptic on Texas turning blue, but I've changed my tune because Trump is a uniquely unpopular Republican in Texas who seems to be the driver of an important development: Like other Americans, Texans with a college degree are shifting rapidly from red to blue, and Democrats have a lot of room to grow with them in Texas.


This doesn't mean the state will go Democratic in 2020 (Democrats not named Joe Biden currently are losing to Trump in the Lone Star state in high quality polling), but it is a real possibility.


Trump's net approval rating (approval - disapproval) among registered voters has been slightly negative in Texas throughout his presidency. The latest Quinnipiac University poll put it at -1 points. All other elected Texas Republican officials had at least a +8 point net approval rating. This poll comes on top of the 2018 exit poll giving Trump a +1 net approval rating, and the midterm electorate in Texas is likely more Republican leaning than a 2020 presidential electorate will be. Trump won the state by 9 in 2016.


If the 2020 election were held today and it were solely a referendum on Trump, Texas would be a toss-up.


Traditionally, Texas has been a lot more Republican than the nation as a whole. In 2014, for example, Democratic President Barack Obama's net approval rating was 18 points worse in Texas than nationally. In 2018, Trump, a Republican, was just 10 points higher in Texas. In other words, there was an 8-point shift toward the Democrats, on this measure, compared to the nation as a whole in just four years. This followed the 2016 presidential race being the closest in the state since the 1990s.


Trump's unusually low approval rating in 2018 created the environment in which Republican Sen. Ted Cruz won re-election by less than 3 points. It was the worst Republican performance in a Senate race in the state since 1988. In 2012, Cruz won his first term by 16 points. This 13 point pro-Democratic shift occurred even though Cruz was an incumbent (who usually do better) and the national environment (as measured by the presidential vote in 2012 and House vote in 2018) shifted by less than 5 points toward the Democrats. (As I've pointed out, this shift was driven mostly by opinions toward Trump, not towards the Texas Senate candidates running in 2018.)


Of course, just because the state became more blue doesn't mean it will keep moving blue into 2020. The reason I think it could shift more is because of why the state has been going blue over the last few years: the aforementioned highly-educated voters.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, twa said:

John be wanting your money renegade7  just like the Dems whispering Texas is up for grabs :ols:

 

If the voters are stupid enough to embrace the Dems here so be it, but I don't see it.,

 

This might not be the year Texas goes blue, but its accelerating because of Trump doing damage to the suburbs.  I don't know if you read the entire article, but Whites will be the minority in Texas in 2-3 years tops, so even if Hispanics are typically more conservative in Texas then say Cali, the rhetoric is turning them away in droves now.  We're not just talking policy anymore, we're talking inciting violence against them, can you blame them?

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21 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Yes, we're aware that progressives Bernie people are trying to figure out what is going to stick.  Racist, stooge, lazy, sellout of the working class, hates Obama, all good places to start I guess. 

I don't think he is a racist, but saying he can do what Obama can't do does sound very super white man.

 

But Biden is 100% lazy. That's always been mentioned about him. He is undisciplined, which used to piss off the Obama staff.

 

And unless im missing something, every major decision Biden supported in the senate helped to hurt the working class from NAFTA, Glass-Stegall, and ending Welfare.

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17 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I don't think he is a racist, but saying he can do what Obama can't do does sound very super white man.

 

But Biden is 100% lazy. That's always been mentioned about him. He is undisciplined, which used to piss off the Obama staff.

 

And unless im missing something, every major decision Biden supported in the senate helped to hurt the working class from NAFTA, Glass-Stegall, and ending Welfare.


Wait, has Biden said he can do what Obama can't?  Not sure I saw that.  I mean, any more than every candidate running that is saying they will go beyond what Obama accomplished, which is like, how all campaigns function unbound by the actual process of governing.

 

100% lazy and "that's always been mentioned about him."  Okay, anything to back that one up?  He's doing less public events, sure.  Is that lazy, or is that smart campaign strategy for a frontrunner?  Undisciplined, yes, for certain he is that, at least with his mouth. 

 

Every major decision Biden supported hurt the working class (including "ending" Welfare).  These are just uncut Bernie talking points that distills a very long (and complicated) history in the Senate down into something that a typical Bernie person can digest.  Talk about lazy. 

Edited by PleaseBlitz
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31 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This might not be the year Texas goes blue, but its accelerating because of Trump doing damage to the suburbs.  I don't know if you read the entire article, but Whites will be the minority in Texas in 2-3 years tops, so even if Hispanics are typically more conservative in Texas then say Cali, the rhetoric is turning them away in droves now.  We're not just talking policy anymore, we're talking inciting violence against them, can you blame them?

 

Yes.  Yes, we can, and will.  

 

- Trumpers.  

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53 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This might not be the year Texas goes blue, but its accelerating because of Trump doing damage to the suburbs.  I don't know if you read the entire article, but Whites will be the minority in Texas in 2-3 years tops, so even if Hispanics are typically more conservative in Texas then say Cali, the rhetoric is turning them away in droves now.  We're not just talking policy anymore, we're talking inciting violence against them, can you blame them?

 

I've read it many times before, and know what they overlook. 

I'm Hispanic :ols:

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1 minute ago, twa said:

 

I've read it many times before, and know what they overlook. 

I'm Hispanic :ols:

You talk like someone who people assume are white, like you're safe or something.

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1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

You talk like someone who people assume are white, like you're safe or something.

 

Safe from who?

I live in the highest Hispanic populated county's in the US ,in the middle of the bunch.

 

 

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the fact of the matter is if biden say dumb **** it's gonna get posted

 

either me or someone else is going to pick it up

 

that man is riding off obama's coattails to try to win the office

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25 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Safe from who?

I live in the highest Hispanic populated county's in the US ,in the middle of the bunch.

 

2

 

You may have the rest of the people on this board fooled, but I know you're too smart to play stupid.

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1 hour ago, visionary said:

 

 

 

 

Fast forward to 2020 election, same three are interviewed "Well, Fox News explained to us how Biden is an extreme leftist, so we really had no choice but to vote for Trump again"

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1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

You talk like someone who people assume are white, like you're safe or something.

 

The some people that assume every Hispanic thinks/feels certain ways?

 

;)

 

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2 hours ago, visionary said:

 

 

 

 

Can't wait to see Trump's tweets attacking this nice lady.

 

"Look at her. Do you think I'd be interested in getting her vote? The 10s vote for me."

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6 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

The some people that assume every Hispanic thinks/feels certain ways?

 

;)

 

In fairness, the article addressed this directly in how Hispanics in Texas vote republican way more then they do in Texas and the biggest problem Dems had up until this point is not trying to figure out why.  Based on that and other one's, its not just that there's a different approach from different people down there but a situation where Trump is turning off people that would normally pull the lever for R no matter what, Hispanics included.  

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4 hours ago, Springfield said:

 

Was watching Real Time yesterday.  Bill Maher made a great point regarding past history.  It shouldn’t matter.  Current positions matter.  Kamala Harris, used to be against legalization of marijuana, now she’s for it.  Obama was against gay marriage, then he was for it (thanks to Biden).  Who cares about bussing in 1972.  Who cares about working with segregationists.  None of that stuff matters right now.

Except yes it does. I mean, is it OK that someone's position evolved over the years? Absolutely. It's a sign of intelligence to be able to change one's view based on information.

 

However, there's no way of knowing what new challenges will come up during a President's term, so you have to be able to trust their judgement. Can I trust Joe's? He was wrong about busing, he was wrong about women's right to earn a living, he was wrong about the crime bill, he was wrong about Clarence Thomas,  he was wrong about NAFTA, he was wrong about Glass-Steagall, he was wrong about the bankruptcy bill, he was wrong about the Iraq war.....

 

Dude has been wrong an awful lot and almost always it seems like the "this will work better for me politically" brand of being wrong. So no, I don't really trust his judgment. And that's a real reason not to support him in the primary.

 

For the record, the issue really wasn't that he worked with segregationists 40 something years ago, the real issue was he was bragging about doing it in the present. 

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