Rufus T Firefly Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 2 hours ago, No Excuses said: The “very unfavorable” cohort of 18-40 year old voters, is likely never to vote GOP in their lifetimes and will always remember this buffoonery. That’s greater than 60% of the entire age demographic. These aren’t just people who disapprove of Trump and the GOP, these are people who loathe the entire movement and the conservative project. Trump is a generational deathblow to the GOP. It’s really hard to understate how disliked conservatives are in the major metro centers of the country. It’s a visceral disdain to any and all symbols associated with right wing beliefs. If you think about it, anyone much under the age of 35 has no real memory of a Republican Presidency that was anything but an unmitigated disaster and only one election where they won the popular vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 9 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said: If you think about it, anyone much under the age of 35 has no real memory of a Republican Presidency that was anything but an unmitigated disaster and only one election where they won the popular vote. That's a pretty good point. The Reagan Republicans are all boomers now. The only thing those 40 and under really remember as a Republican POTUS outside of Trump is W. I'm 42 and I remember as a little kid knowing that Ronald Reagan was the president, but nothing beyond that. I remember Papa Bush but I was still mostly too young to actually care much about politics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Re: doom of gop preface: I personally would like the party to go away entirely and a new party arise that works on conservative ideals without any racism; in fact makes it a point to confront racism. ive seen these arguments before. I realize now doesn’t directly compare to previous instances of “<insert party of choice> is doomed!” But it’s hard to ignore the repetitive cycle of those arguments and the fact that it just has never worked out that way. and you can never underestimate: - how moderated or anti-trump conservatives are against trump now but will line up for the next candidate before knowing anything about him - how a sizable portion of usually republican voters haven’t been showing up, but will when a new candidate is an option (trump had very poor turnout in 2016 for conservatives, he only won cause Clinton managed to do worse) - how easily everyone forgets things. I wouldn’t be surprised if a majority of people voting in 2024 don’t even consider the trump presidency and all that’s gone on (assuming he’s loses in 2020 and we have 4 years of Biden before 2024) - the democrats ability to step all over their dick and fail to capitalize on the other major party essentially trying to commit suicide over a 4 year period - how today’s younger people voting for and demanding change, may easily turn into fighting against change when they’re older look I want the gop gone as much as many of you. For my own selfish reasons, I’d like to have a party I actually identify with again. But I have other, more important, reasons to want them gone, namely for the good of the country. just think the whole they’re dead argument is a bit naive, puts a lot of the onus on a general public that’s generally uninformed and has incredibly short memories. how me the gop getting whacked in the elections after trump is gone, and I’ll change my thought on that. Until then... just worry about beating this one guy this one time cause right now that’s all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 @No Excuses im not trying to just sweep away your arguments with some generic post. I like what you said and I agree with it mostly. and I think one thing that may never change, that you illustrated well, is that non-white people may now be forever against the GOP. That seems like a reasonable thing to think and it’s what my observations of people around me are. We won’t really know until we see a trump-less gop. Rebranding isn’t difficult when people have such short memories. And the Dems are always subject to screwing it up. I know a lot of people that hate trump, won’t vote for him, but hate fundamental aspects of the current Dem agenda. They may not be republicans or conservatives, but I don’t think it would take much to steal their vote away from the Dems. They don’t support many of the big ticket items (Dems version of gun control, tuition loans/free college, healthcare, taxes, minimum wage, etc) so if you gave them a typical conservative that’s against that, but isn’t cut from the Trump cloth, say someone like Kaisich (circa early 2016 when he was relevant, for lack of a better example), they’d jump on board the GOP ticket in a heartbeat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Holy ****, that's a huge change in Wisconsin since March. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 tonight there will be tweet "104% Approval in the GOP. Congrats to your Favorite President...just kidding" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 3 hours ago, mistertim said: That's a pretty good point. The Reagan Republicans are all boomers now. The only thing those 40 and under really remember as a Republican POTUS outside of Trump is W. I'm 42 and I remember as a little kid knowing that Ronald Reagan was the president, but nothing beyond that. I remember Papa Bush but I was still mostly too young to actually care much about politics. I mean, 35 is a conservative (unfortunate labeling) way of framing it. If you're 40, you were 12 when Papa Bush was dealing with a huge recession. Then you came of age under a blissful Clinton Administration and then the disasters bookending Obama. 3 hours ago, mistertim said: Holy ****, that's a huge change in Wisconsin since March. I would have bet on Wisconsin being the hardest of the three blue states to flip back this time, but it seems to be clearly Pennsylvania at the moment, which I would have assumed would be the easiest (especially with Biden on the ticket). That's why you gotta be able to adapt on the fly as a campaign. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 30 minutes ago, tshile said: We won’t really know until we see a trump-less gop. Rebranding isn’t difficult when people have such short memories. And the Dems are always subject to screwing it up. People do have short memories but becoming toxic ideologically in politics isn’t something new for this country. This was basically Democrats and liberalism for pretty much all of the 70s and 80s. The conservative views of the boomers that were formed in those years are still having an outsized impact on our politics. The impending demise of the GOP will likely very closely resemble what Democrats and liberals experienced from 70-90. You’re kind of there, you exist, people know you exist but there is a cultural and political irrelevancy where you have no great influence on the direction of the country. How conservativism is rebranded is an interesting question. The social policies are all major losers with under-40 crowd that will shape politics for the next 40 years in this country. The economic agenda is probably a loser too but there’s room for rebranding here. And quite frankly, there is a stronger argument that the center left Democrats have a more market friendly agenda than the GOP at the moment. Tariffs, trade wars, protectionism, anti-science and innovation, restrictions of work visas, all of this is decidedly anti-free market policies. So I don’t know where the GOP rebrands here either because “regulations and government stimulus are bad” as your only free market position isn’t going to fly with a generation that views climate change as a real threat and has now seen two major recessions in a span of a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cooked Crack Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 1 hour ago, No Excuses said: People do have short memories but becoming toxic ideologically in politics isn’t something new for this country. This was basically Democrats and liberalism for pretty much all of the 70s and 80s. The conservative views of the boomers that were formed in those years are still having an outsized impact on our politics. The impending demise of the GOP will likely very closely resemble what Democrats and liberals experienced from 70-90. You’re kind of there, you exist, people know you exist but there is a cultural and political irrelevancy where you have no great influence on the direction of the country. Congress was Democrat dominated from 1957-1997 (for all but 6 years in the Senate and the entire 40 in the House). I'm guessing they still knew who the Dems were at the state and localeavel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said: Congress was Democrat dominated from 1957-1997 (for all but 6 years in the Senate and the entire 40 in the House). I'm guessing they still knew who the Dems were at the state and localeavel. A lot of conservative Democrats. Liberal politics was pretty much irrelevant for two decades and we still see it’s effects on economic and foreign policy today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 @No Excuses ive got no solid arguments against anything you’ve said except that we should never underestimate the percentage of people who are low information voters i don’t see the gop rebranding in a way to capture much of any of the regulars here, for example. Most people who participate in these threads are well informed (at least respective to the average). And I’m not even talking about the liberals on the board who are fundamentally against conservative agendas, I’m talking about people who have and would vote for the gop if it hadn’t turned into the trash heap it currently is. Think: 2008 McCain supporter or people who supported people like kaisaik in 2016. I think most of those people, here, are likely gone forever. I’m in that boat. but the rest of the country is woefully under informed, many will vote solely for what they think is just best for them (even if it’s not, they’ve just been convinced it is), etc. I guess what I’m saying is that I think you should be correct, but the lack of informed voter base is and will always be something that screws up what should otherwise be a common sense path for this to take... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 So serious question. At this point, does Biden need to even bother debating with Trump? I suppose there are bad "optics" over avoiding the stage with him, but why? So you can get dragged into the mud? So he can talk over you and ramble, which makes Trump look bad but also gives off a perceived dominance. And the fact is, despite all his nonsense and irrelevant talking points, Trump might be a better debater/speaker than Biden as long as making sense or speaking truth aren't a criteria. He clearly loves the spotlight of the whole thing more than Biden. So if you're Biden, why bother? Why not just give some frequent version of FDR's fireside chats from your home, and let The Lincoln Project and others keep doing your dirty work. Why give Trump the platform? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 I think Biden has to debate a Trump and look good doing it. Luckily Biden is at his best when he’s all fired up, which Trump will trigger in just a few seconds. Other than that, less is more for Biden. Trying to match Trump on total output would be a mistake. Let Trump talk his way out of office. Biden’s major selling point is replacing a horrible person with a good one. Poor leadership, with steady. A return to some semblance of sane leadership. As we’ve seen in the last 3.5 years these things matter. Policy is not everything n this election. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Biden not debating would be a gift to the Trump campaign. They'd love something to latch onto like that. They'd be screaming night and day about how scared Biden is. Besides, how long has it been since we've seen Trump's lunatic orange ass next to someone who's a serious and thoughtful person and who will challenge him? I think it's very unlikely that Trump walks away from the debates looking better to the majority of Americans outside of his base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 4 minutes ago, mistertim said: Biden not debating would be a gift to the Trump campaign. They'd love something to latch onto like that. They'd be screaming night and day about how scared Biden is. Besides, how long has it been since we've seen Trump's lunatic orange ass next to someone who's a serious and thoughtful person and who will challenge him? I think it's very unlikely that Trump walks away from the debates looking better to the majority of Americans outside of his base. Exactly Just imagine the momentum Drumpf would get from that. And the questions about Biden's "competence" if he was afraid to debate. My goodness, this would be the perfect way to let him back into the race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Biden already accepted the standard three debates. What I want to see is no audience in the debate premises. Lots of empty seats. Trump will want people there, he won't want then masked. Event organizers should require masks. Can you imagine Trump looking at an audience that's masked so no facial expressions?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 I doubt they have even considered not debating. It's going to be good for Biden/Harris. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistertim Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 5 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said: Biden already accepted the standard three debates. What I want to see is no audience in the debate premises. Lots of empty seats. Trump will want people there, he won't want then masked. Event organizers should require masks. Can you imagine Trump looking at an audience that's masked so no facial expressions?! I wonder if the Trump campaign will say he'll refuse the debates if there aren't people there. Wouldn't surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadySkinsFan Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, mistertim said: I wonder if the Trump campaign will say he'll refuse the debates if there aren't people there. Wouldn't surprise me. He'll think that stance makes him look strong, most of the electorate will consider him weak. It won't go well for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forehead Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 Keep in mind, I did say have Biden do some sort of FDR fireside chat type series. I wasn't saying he should hide from speaking to the electorate, just not to bother sharing a stage with Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 29 minutes ago, Forehead said: Keep in mind, I did say have Biden do some sort of FDR fireside chat type series. I wasn't saying he should hide from speaking to the electorate, just not to bother sharing a stage with Trump. Yes, I read your post. Stand by my answer. Horrendous idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Llevron Posted June 24, 2020 Share Posted June 24, 2020 42 minutes ago, mistertim said: I wonder if the Trump campaign will say he'll refuse the debates if there aren't people there. Wouldn't surprise me. He may not refuse but he will 100% say it was rigged, Joe was given questions, footage was doctored....all that stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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