Presidential Election: 11/3/20 ---Now the President Elect Joe Biden Thread

[PeterMP]

34 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

Not debating him will be spun as a sign of weakness, even though debating someone like him is pointless. 

 

I viewed that thread as a pretty good reason to pursue impeachment as well. 2020 needs to be a referendum on his behavior in office and the vile direction towards which he is drawing the country. Impeachment is going to draw people who are otherwise low information voters to pay attention. 

 

Yes, it will be spun as a weakness.  But otherwise your just letting him spout nonsense while you voluntarily share a stage with him (normalizing him). 

 

(Not that one thing lost Clinton lost the election, but when she stood there when he said she'd be in jail if he was President hurt her.

 

If you are running against him, you have to have a reply ready for that sort of thing.  Will I get trial or are you just going to put people you don't like in jail?)

 

They need to wait on impeachment if they are doing it for election issues.  Starting now, is too early.  It'll be through the news cycle by the time the election has come along.

 

I'm not sure what if anything is going to develop over the next few months that the Democrats could reasonably claim that a 9 months from now impeachment proceedings make sense, but not now.  But if I'm doing it for election reasons that's what I would go for.  Start next spring and let it play out over the summer.

 

(And really since there is no real chance the Senate convicts, it is just electoral manipulations that the Dems would impeach for.)

 

[Larry]

17 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Impeachment is going to draw people who are otherwise low information voters to pay attention. 

 

Or it's going to cause them to conclude that "If you just vote Republican, then all this arguing goes away".  

[No Excuses]

15 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Or it's going to cause them to conclude that "If you just vote Republican, then all this arguing goes away".  

 

When most of the public, including low information voters, already dislike him, I’m skeptical that the takeaway from impeachment will be “Trump is the good guy here”.

[Bozo the kKklown]

This is how Biden loses against Trump

 

[FunkedUp]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Trust your suspicions.  The post was an intent to normalize Charlottesville and cast gun-toting Nazis as victims.  Nothing more or less.

 

Disingenious. I cited two cases of similar levels of violent transgessions. The case of the far right activists attacked an individual with weapons like sticks and bats. They were prosecuted and sent to jail, justice served. These individuals did not brandish firearms from what I could read. 

 

The case of the far left activist brandishing a bike lock sereptituously strikes an individual, in a way that could have easliy caused death, who was only non-violently protesting. The criminal in this case gets a couple months of probation, not the same level of justice served. 

 

I support a society that dispenses justice on the behavior not the social aims of the victim or perpetrator. This seems to me to be the best path that leads to a safe and harmonious society. One which can accomodate a diverse set of cultures, scientific inquiry, and artistic expressions.

 

One last bit to get back on topic. I have always voted either Democratic or Libertarian. When I grew up in the 1980's and 1990's the Republicans were the "Moral Party" that tried to impose their beliefs and cesure those of others. Strange enough, now I see the Republicans as more tolerant and the source of original good ideas. Trump was a wild card when elected in regards to his policies. It turns out he is rather center: wants to enforce our borders. address illegal immigration, reduce our military engagement overseas (not a fan of the irresponsible spending), protect freedom of speech, protect civil liberties, prison reform, cut taxes, and etc.. Most of these were Democratic positions of Clinton and Obama; Trump is actually further left than them on many of those issues.  The Left's feverant position of opposing Trump on everything, regardless of the issue, has them taking absolute crazy positions. You are pushing me "RIGHT" into Trump's arms. It looks like I will be a first time Trump voter in 2020, probably just one of the drove of other voters doing the same. 

 

I am not Black, and want to ask fellow Gen X'ers who are, how much discrimination/racism do you experience now versus the 1980's and 1990's?

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

Partly, agree.  Winning Trump voters is a waste of time.

 

Though also think you have to talk about issues. 

 

Any debate is the hard thing.  I'd agree trying to talk about the optimal tax policy at a debate is a waste of time.  He doesn't understand tax policy (or any other policy) to have a meaningful debate.

 

I'd be tempted to not do a debate if I'm the democrats.

You can't have a real debate on the issues because Trump is mentally incapable of doing so.

[Larry]

6 minutes ago, FunkedUp said:

Strange enough, now I see the Republicans as more tolerant and the source of original good ideas.

 

I think if I was a Mod, you'd have this under your user name right now.  

 

(Which probably is why I'm not a Mod.)   

[Cooked Crack]

9 minutes ago, FunkedUp said:

One last bit to get back on topic. I have always voted either Democratic or Libertarian. When I grew up in the 1980's and 1990's the Republicans were the "Moral Party" that tried to impose their beliefs and cesure those of others. Strange enough, now I see the Republicans as more tolerant and the source of original good ideas. Trump was a wild card when elected in regards to his policies. It turns out he is rather center: wants to enforce our borders. address illegal immigration, reduce our military engagement overseas (not a fan of the irresponsible spending), protect freedom of speech, protect civil liberties, prison reform, cut taxes, and etc.. Most of these were Democratic positions of Clinton and Obama; Trump is actually further left than them on many of those issues.  The Left's feverant position of opposing Trump on everything, regardless of the issue, has them taking absolute crazy positions. You are pushing me "RIGHT" into Trump's arms. It looks like I will be a first time Trump voter in 2020, probably just one of the drove of other voters doing the same. 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Gotta love how that dude tried to tie it all in to the fraudulent “walk away” schtick.

 

He’s a good soldier.

[No Excuses]

Pretty interesting poll on where the public stands on policy issues:

 

 

Positions of center-left candidates are far more popular than positions of either the right wing or progressive left.

[NoCalMike]

3 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Pretty interesting poll on where the public stands on policy issues:

 

 

Positions of center-left candidates are far more popular than positions of either the right wing or progressive left.

 

This has been pretty much the case for anyone actually willing to believe the truth.  This is a center-left country on the issues.  Has been for some quite time.  The problem is the elections tend to not be about the issues as much as we think. 

[Dan T.]

1 hour ago, FunkedUp said:

 

One last bit to get back on topic. I have always voted either Democratic or Libertarian. When I grew up in the 1980's and 1990's the Republicans were the "Moral Party" that tried to impose their beliefs and cesure those of others. Strange enough, now I see the Republicans as more tolerant and the source of original good ideas. Trump was a wild card when elected in regards to his policies. It turns out he is rather center: wants to enforce our borders. address illegal immigration, reduce our military engagement overseas (not a fan of the irresponsible spending), protect freedom of speech, protect civil liberties, prison reform, cut taxes, and etc.. Most of these were Democratic positions of Clinton and Obama; Trump is actually further left than them on many of those issues.  The Left's feverant position of opposing Trump on everything, regardless of the issue, has them taking absolute crazy positions. You are pushing me "RIGHT" into Trump's arms. It looks like I will be a first time Trump voter in 2020, probably just one of the drove of other voters doing the same. 

 

I am not Black, and want to ask fellow Gen X'ers who are, how much discrimination/racism do you experience now versus the 1980's and 1990's?

 

This is from The Onion, right?

[No Excuses]

5 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

This has been pretty much the case for anyone actually willing to believe the truth.  This is a center-left country on the issues.  Has been for some quite time.  The problem is the elections tend to not be about the issues as much as we think. 

 

I would like to see if we can somehow do such polls by weighting opinions by the power of the electoral college.

 

It is pretty obvious over the past two decades that the country as a majority favors liberal politics, considering a Democratic president has won the popular vote 6 out of 7 times. But because of the EC, the voting power of some parts of the country is far greater than others. And as stupid as this is, we end up with a system where some opinions carry more weight than others. I would like to see this reflected in public policy polling.

[NoCalMike]

Just now, No Excuses said:

 

I would like to see if we can somehow do such polls by weighting opinions by the power of the electoral college.

 

It is pretty obvious over the past two decades that the country as a majority favors liberal politics, considering a Democratic president has won the popular vote 6 out of 7 times. But because of the EC, the voting power of some parts of the country is far greater than others. And as stupid as this is, we end up with a system where some opinion carry more weight than others.

 

It goes even further, even a lot of folks who vote for the GOP, support Democrats on the issues, they just refuse to acknowledge it because to them the word "Democrat" as been demonized by the only media they listen to. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

7 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

This has been pretty much the case for anyone actually willing to believe the truth.  This is a center-left country on the issues.  Has been for some quite time.  The problem is the elections tend to not be about the issues as much as we think. 

the other thing about that chart, which is also interesting, is those now mainstream center-left positions were probably extreme left 10 years ago.

[NoCalMike]

Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

the other thing about that chart, which is also interesting, is those now mainstream center-left positions were probably extreme left 10 years ago.

 

Something the GOP is masterful at is having a good feel for social issues that the tide is turning on, but there are still enough people left that "aren't ready" that they can exploit it for gain.  Known as wedge issues.  Stuff like gay marriage.  The GOP milked the last round of resistance to that during the Bush years.  Imagine them trying to use that issue to turn out their base now.

[Bozo the kKklown]

5 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Something the GOP is masterful at is having a good feel for social issues that the tide is turning on, but there are still enough people left that "aren't ready" that they can exploit it for gain.  Known as wedge issues.  Stuff like gay marriage.  The GOP milked the last round of resistance to that during the Bush years.  Imagine them trying to use that issue to turn out their base now.

They are currently doing that with immigration. That has been a 10-year campaign to make that a "problem."

[mcsluggo]

2 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

When most of the public, including low information voters, already dislike him, I’m skeptical that the takeaway from impeachment will be “Trump is the good guy here”.

 

 

there is a problem with that narrative

 

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/07/22/trump-approval-rating-new-high-npr-pbs-poll-after-racist-tweets/1796556001/

 

[No Excuses]

3 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 

 

there is a problem with that narrative

 

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/07/22/trump-approval-rating-new-high-npr-pbs-poll-after-racist-tweets/1796556001/

 

 

What part? His approval is still in the toilet with a majority of voters.

[Mooka]

1 hour ago, FunkedUp said:

The case of the far left activist brandishing a bike lock sereptituously strikes an individual, in a way that could have easliy caused death, who was only non-violently protesting. The criminal in this case gets a couple months of probation, not the same level of justice served. 

 

I support a society that dispenses justice on the behavior not the social aims of the victim or perpetrator. 

 

Are you quoting Batman or something here? 

 

The guy with the lock was a college professor with no criminal history. He faced 10+ years and pleaded down. 

 

The 4 Charlotesville guys were ****ing nazis with criminal histories.  (Think one was a KKK wizard or whatever) Even the 19 year old had a rap sheet starting from middle school, was a known felon, and was wearing a helmet that said "commie killer." 

 

In fantasy land I suppose none of this matters when sentencing.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

10 minutes ago, Mooka said:

 

Are you quoting Batman or something here? 

 

The guy with the lock was a college professor with no criminal history. He faced 10+ years and pleaded down. 

 

The 4 Charlotesville guys were ****ing nazis with criminal histories.  (Think one was a KKK wizard or whatever) Even the 19 year old had a rap sheet starting from middle school, was a known felon, and was wearing a helmet that said "commie killer." 

 

In fantasy land I suppose none of this matters when sentencing.

 

Hey man, he's just a lifelong Democract that has been pushed into the arms of Trump by the radical militant left. He's just out here looking for answers

[Fresh8686]

On 7/20/2019 at 10:09 AM, PeterMP said:

 

Okay, if you go back to my original post, I specifically talked about the environmental regulations being a drastic change.  The EPA and related agencies are being gutted.  I also said pointed out the courts as an exception, where a lot of the other things about regulations are being changed.

 

I also specifically said ignoring what he says and he tweets.  Most of the escalation of the behavior is coming from things that he says and tweets.

 

My post was specific to actual polices.  You even bolded the statement where I said specifically looking at policies.

 

I specifically said if you look at X (and ignore Y and Z) this is true and what you are telling me is that I am wrong because what I said is true (for X) is not true for Y and Z.

 

I wrote that post very purposely because I knew what was going to happen.

 

Trump has drastically altered the way a President behaves.  But what I would tell you is the way that he talks is not a drastic change from the status quo from the way his supporters talk (among themselves) and think.

 

For people that already talk and think like that, they are more comfortable with having a President that talks and thinks like that (and probably actually like it), then far left changes in actual policies.

Ok, see I'm having a hard time with with how much you had to ignore and cut out from what has occurred under this administration to make your response to my posts. It feels like your telling me, that except for all these changes under category X and Y, which we won't count, there has been no major change. When for me, those categories are important and have weight in my consideration and consequential alarm/anger. Further, even for just the policy category there are examples like the Muslim Ban that give lie to the status quo assertion.

When I bolded that part in your statement in my previous posts, it was to highlight my visceral reaction to your assertion of "status quo/no change" rather than agree to your reduction in context. My reaction is partly in response to that reduction as well, because it is a value judgement that I believe you would not make if you were feeling some chronic and visceral sense of danger from this administration.

Also, the order of magnitude or whatever from which you are using "status quo"  seems to change from one post to the next. I thought we started off talking about the status quo of our nation as a whole, but you seem to be reducing it in this post to a status quo relegated primarily to the sphere of trump supporters. For, it is not status quo for the whole country to behave and talk and have the same dearth of values that Trump represents, unless you are saying the majority of white people is what you are considering as the status quo, which is a bit ethnocentric in my opinion. 

Further, I would add to your statement that the escalation of behavior isn't just from what he says and tweets, but from what his administration and the GOP accepts and allows. Not just from Trump, but the people who also follow his playbook. From Roy Moore to any other bottom feeder, what is acceptable has changed and that unfortunately means destroying trust for short-term gain and ripping apart the social and economic fabric in the process.

Your original post was in response to me asking how democratic candidates and their policy can be seen as worse than Trump and judging by your last line, what you're saying is that the behavior that I find morally reprehensible and irresponsible are things that they are comfortable with. Which, unfortunately supports the initial conclusion I was trying to avoid in the hopes that they weren't just selfish ****s, who are racially apathetic at best or racists at worst.

[Bozo the kKklown]

 

 

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Fresh8686 said:

Your original post was in response to me asking how democratic candidates and their policy can be seen as worse than Trump and judging by your last line, what you're saying is that the behavior that I find morally reprehensible and irresponsible are things that they are comfortable with. Which, unfortunately supports the initial conclusion I was trying to avoid in the hopes that they weren't just selfish ****s, who are racially apathetic at best or racists at worst.

 

Okay, so to me there are two different parts.  One is where are as a country.  And in the case of the Muslim ban for most people in this country the Muslim ban did not affect them (so very much status quo) (now, there are exceptions (e.g. people with family in those countries), but they are not likely the people you are talking to or about either).

 

From there, I do think for other issues there is a status quo to how they live regularly, think, and talk.

 

And certainly from your perspective (and mine) the people you are talking about are racially apathetic (at best).

 

For somebody like @TheGreatBuzz 2nd amendment rights are more important than making sure it is easy for people to easily vote.  He's got different balance of what he places as importance.

 

And as such, that the Republican party in general is doing things to suppress votes of minorities (by making it harder to vote) doesn't drive him to vote Democrat.

 

He's racially apathetic because of his concern over the 2nd amendment.

 

2 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

 

 

Oddly though Warren doesn't seem to see a role for federal debt in the economy.

 

It isn't like cancelling student loan debt is going to make the debt go away.  You've just transferred the debt from one place to another.

 

Which suggest the debt is okay in one place, but not another.

 

(Which I'd buy is possible in the short term, but not in the longer term.)

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, No Excuses said:

Pretty interesting poll on where the public stands on policy issues:

 

Positions of center-left candidates are far more popular than positions of either the right wing or progressive left.

 

There's a long history of the public supporting center left policies until you start talking abut paying for them.

 

That isn't anything new.