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Presidential Election: 11/3/20 ---Now the President Elect Joe Biden Thread


88Comrade2000
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15 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

The political paradigm has veered so far to the right, that asking for what other industrialized countries have is considered “hard-left.”

 

Some how this:

is crazy and leftist. So instead let’s move more towards the right and help out our corporate lords. 

 

This country has lost its minds.

 

That includes some of you who think you are on the left but only as far as neoliberalism takes you left.

 

Yes. Free college is hard left. Nationalized healthcare is hard left. This living wage bull**** is hard left.

 

Not hurting immigrants is not hard left (Although it's cute that you guys think such a dumb tactic works. I guess it does work on some of our less-intelligent freinds)

 

I don't think holding wall street accountable is hard left. Plenty on the left are cool with letting wall street be what it is. 

 

I don't even know why fixing the pipes in flint is on that list and I don't recall as ingle candidate making that part of their platform.  Flint is and has been run by democrats. Again, cute. I guess it works.

 

 

 

10 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

It's also interesting how the goalposts keep getting moved by admitted ex-republicans. 

 

They wouldn't vote for a mostly conservative Democrat in 2016. So what Democrat would they actually ever vote for in 2020?

 

Clinton being a moderate wasn't the issue I took with her.

 

I actually don't have any issues with the current nominees I had with Clinton. Except maybe Biden, the more I watch him the more I start to think he's a fraud (and also not very smart, but I didn't have an issue with Clinton's intelligence.) I actually really like the candidates the dems have at the moment (even if some have no busienss being up there...)

 

My issue with the current nominees is strictly policy related. If this 'blue wave' is coming, yes I'm concerened that voting Dems because Trump is awful is going to lead to a bunch of policies being enacted that are A) not good for me, B ) not what I want for the country either.

 

I find it hilarious that the people who've spent the last few years bragging about the 'blue wave' are now trying to garner votes by saying "but we'll never win enough elections to actually do all this"

 

You know who accepts arguments like that? Dumb people. The same people who believe the GOP when they were telling us "we wont let those tax cuts expire" 

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7 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

They are only interested in voting for Republicans who do what Trump does but isn’t crass

I have no voted for a republican since McCain. I vote every election. I've voted mostly democrat. I can think of 2 times I voted third party, the rest democrat (and 2 times is just for 2 positions, not the entire ballot)

 

You don't know what you're talking about. You've spent so long in your little echo chamber you've completely lost track of what reality is.

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Just now, tshile said:

Yes. Free college is hard left. Nationalized healthcare is hard left. This living wage bull**** is hard left.

 

Not hurting immigrants is not hard left (Although it's cute that you guys think such a dumb tactic works. I guess it does work on some of our less-intelligent freinds)

 

I don't think holding wall street accountable is hard left. Plenty on the left are cool with letting wall street be what it is. 

 

I don't even know why fixing the pipes in flint is on that list and I don't recall as ingle candidate making that part of their platform.  Flint is and has been run by democrats. Again, cute. I guess it works.

And everything on that list with the exception of free state college is FDR’s platform, the famous hard left radical. 

 

The problem isn’t those policies, it’s that this nation has become a far right corporate state. That means folks who are comfortably right leaning as yourself think they are moderates and closer to the center. It’s not, and you aren’t. That’s not an insult either, it’s just the reality of our system.

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9 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

They are only interested in voting for Republicans. But more than anything else, they are attention whores who have no home. They also aren’t as big a group as they want to believe. Democrats should not listen to “Never trump” conservatives.

 

Yeah, through various media platforms I've seen a lot of "moderates" who voted for Trump talking about "I don't really want Trump but the Dems are doing a ****ty job of winning my vote". I call bull****. If a person can't convince themselves that a small rock with a face drawn on it would be a better POTUS than Trump, let alone a competent Dem, then they were a lost cause from the get-go. The whole "oh, they're too far left" is just an excuse and an easy out for the fact that they're still part of the tribal "R or bust" mindset and probably haven't been planning on voting against Trump at all...short of having a "super conservative but still not as awful as Trump" Republican decide to run as a Democrat.

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Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

And everything on that list with the exception of free state college is FDR’s platform, the famous hard left radical. 

 

The problem isn’t those policies, it’s that this nation has become a far right corporate state. That means folks who are comfortably right leaning as yourself think they are moderates and closer to the center. It’s not, and you aren’t. That’s not an insult either, it’s just the reality of our system.

 

Honestly I don't know what i 'lean right' on anymore. I can't really think of anything they're pushing that I actually like. I don't even know a lot of what they're pushing anymore because I'm completely turned off by the entire party.

 

And you can go on and on all day about what it is you think about me and my political leanings, but the reality is I've voted almost exclusively democrat over the last 11 years.

 

 

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

If a person can't convince themselves that a small rock with a face drawn on it would be a better POTUS than Trump,

i will take a small rock with a face drawn on it.

 

You guys get to pick your nominee.  You've been made aware of how everyone (on all of the many sides) feels. I've watched you respond to it time and time again. Same with many others here.

 

It's your choice who you nominate against Trump. You have all the information to make the decision. 

 

You cannot say you were not told what the situation was if you don't like the final outcome. 

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25 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

Yes. Free college is hard left.

 

Just want to point out, it didn't say free college.

 

It said public colleges.

 

Though, we have public colleges now so I'm not sure if she's just confused (does not know we have public colleges) or actually meant something else (i.e. free college).

 

So I understand your comment.

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39 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

A “hard left agenda” wouldn’t even pass a Dem controlled house and it’s probably unlikely that the Dems win the Senate anyways. 

 

You guys are being seriously overdramatic vote divas. Besides Bernie, every other Dem candidate would run your standard liberal administration. If you think that is somehow equivalent in terms of badness to the current ****show so be it. 

 

Well, remember. To some people, Hillary and Obama were too far left for their votes. 

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25 minutes ago, tshile said:

I find it hilarious that the people who've spent the last few years bragging about the 'blue wave' are now trying to garner votes by saying "but we'll never win enough elections to actually do all this"

 

The blue wave happened and it mostly elected moderate Democrats that come from wealthy suburbs or midsized cities. Do you really think the current makeup of the Democratic House is passing a laundry bucket list of far left policies? 

 

For instance, the current Democratic house passed a minimum wage increase that is phased out over six years: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/house-passes-raise-the-wage-act-15-per-hour-minimum-wage-bill.html

 

This would hardly qualify as “far left”.

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33 minutes ago, tshile said:

They are completely obvlivious to the fact that some people may hate trump, but also hate their policies, and might be willing to take 4 more years of Trump (which at this point, we know what that is) over possibly 8 years dems with control and a very progressive platform (which we don't know what that will look like, and they can tell us all day long 'yeah but we can't pass these policies' but that's just as much bull**** as the GOP telling us 'yeah but we wont let that tax cut expire.')


Would you please tell me which policies on the left are so alarming or hate-inducing that you are willing to have Trump instead for another 4-16 years? @TheGreatBuzz and @thegreaterbuzzette if you have an answer to this question as well, I'd appreciate it.

I am having a hard time understanding what actual policies come across as worse than what Trump is doing? Please be specific. I really want to understand if I can, because when I can't figure out the rationale it makes it all too easy to conclude that people who think this way are terrible or ignorant people, who are apathetic to anyone other than themselves. And I don't want to have to feel that if I can find a better rationale.

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1 minute ago, No Excuses said:

 

The blue wave happened and it mostly elected moderate Democrats that come from wealthy suburbs or midsized cities. Do you really think the current makeup of the Democratic House is passing a laundry bucket list of far left policies? 

 

The current Democratic house passed a minimum wage increase that is phased out over six years: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/house-passes-raise-the-wage-act-15-per-hour-minimum-wage-bill.html

 

This would hardly qualify as “far left”. 

 

Yeah we had a completely Democratic controlled government and we go the ACA. 

 

Obama would have at least like to have gotten a government option into the law.

 

Even with a blue wave, the government is going to be pretty moderate.

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15 minutes ago, tshile said:

And you can go on and on all day about what it is you think about me and my political leanings, but the reality is I've voted almost exclusively democrat over the last 11 years.

Should I not repeat what you have told posters on this forum for years? Why are you getting mad at what you believe and constantly say? I am not saying this as an insult.

 

And you should also read my post, I don't consider the Democratic party a leftist party. I thought that was clear on my post, lol.

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11 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Just want to point out, it didn't say free college.

 

It said public colleges.

 

Though, we have public colleges now so I'm not sure if she's just confused (does not know we have public colleges) or actually meant something else (i.e. free college).

 

So I understand your comment.

She called it K-16 schooling

I took it to mean free college.

 

In the context of the current elections conversations I don't know what else it could mean but I see your point ;)

 

2 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

Why are you getting mad at what you believe and constantly say?

I'm not. I'm getting mad at your constant characterization of my political views (which you get wrong often, and honestly, I don't even know why you bother)

 

I'm not insulted (though let's not kid, often times that's exactly your intent, and it's fine I'm not mad at you for it (not that you'd care))

 

You and others like to take one person's disagreement with your political leanings and use it to turn them into a trump supporter. It's done often. Just trying to avoid it. It's really tiring. It's possible for me to not like your political leanings and also think the GOP is a dangerous disease on the country. I think if our more liberal people would consider that possibility more often, things would go better.

 

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10 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

The blue wave happened and it mostly elected moderate Democrats that come from wealthy suburbs or midsized cities. Do you really think the current makeup of the Democratic House is passing a laundry bucket list of far left policies? 

 

No, and ultimately that's the argument that keeps getting thrown at me (and others with my concerns.

 

I think it's possible down-ballot results are drastically different than people are calling for, if the anti-trump movement actually shows up in full force. I'm not counting on it, just saying it seems reasonably possible to me.

 

The whole dem's pitch at the moment screams conman. "Vote for me, even if you don't like my ideas, cause I can't actually implement them"

 

There's multiple problems with that when you're looking at it from the perspective of: I don't like your ideas.

 

(and just to add, all of this conversation is likely irrelevant, because we're in the middle of the primaries and there could be a huge pivot at the general, and i feel like often there is, so come summer of 2020 this whole conversation is likely dead and long gone anyways)

 

14 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

willing to have Trump instead for another 4-16 years?

why is it 4-16 years?

 

that's obviously not the actual situation...

14 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:

I am having a hard time understanding what actual policies come across as worse than what Trump is doing?

go read the tweet. go look at what the candidates are talking about.

 

they're talking about massively overhauling a lot of systems.

 

you can't just ignore that because Trump is an awful person and president. You don't just agree to turn everything upsidedown because of Trump. 

 

People who want those things are pushing that argument, but those of us who don't are not going to accept it. I don't know why you think we would. 

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16 minutes ago, tshile said:

I'm not. I'm getting mad at your constant characterization of my political views (which you get wrong often, and honestly, I don't even know why you bother)

 

I'm not insulted (though let's not kid, often times that's exactly your intent, and it's fine I'm not mad at you for it (not that you'd care))

Bruh, we aren't doing this. Stop it.

 

Your views are conservative. That's not an insult, and I am not writing to get you upset. I write that because its exactly what you have said on this forum. We all can read your posts.

 

16 minutes ago, tshile said:

You and others like to take one person's disagreement with your political leanings and use it to turn them into a trump supporter. It's done often. Just trying to avoid it. It's really tiring. It's possible for me to not like your political leanings and also think the GOP is a dangerous disease on the country. I think if our more liberal people would consider that possibility more often, things would go better.

My G, you said views that are very similar to FDR's are extreme. You've said in the past that you don't all the way believe white privilege is a real thing, You don't believe in student loan forgiveness because of your own ordeal. You don't believe everyone should get healthcare if they cannot afford it. If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's not a dog. You are conservative. And that's okay. The Democratic Party is a conservative party. That is where you are. I am not saying that as an insult, but your political leanings aren't some 12-dimensional chess game that's not hard to figure out.  You are quite clear on what you believe.

 

FFS, you made a post a few weeks ago about the people you are around, can only assume your neighbors, being happy about the Trump Tax cuts. 

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32 minutes ago, Fresh8686 said:


Would you please tell me which policies on the left are so alarming or hate-inducing that you are willing to have Trump instead for another 4-16 years? @TheGreatBuzz and @thegreaterbuzzette if you have an answer to this question as well, I'd appreciate it.

I am having a hard time understanding what actual policies come across as worse than what Trump is doing? Please be specific. I really want to understand if I can, because when I can't figure out the rationale it makes it all too easy to conclude that people who think this way are terrible or ignorant people, who are apathetic to anyone other than themselves. And I don't want to have to feel that if I can find a better rationale.

 

I voted for Hillary and will absolutely vote for an Democrat in 2020.  But...

 

At some level, Trump's actual policies (ignore his language and tweets) are less of a change from the status quo (even globally) than what at least the far left wing of the Democratic party wants to enact.

 

We have laws in place for the border.  Trump is just trying to enforce them (the execution is bad).  Most countries don't let people just randomly come over their border.  I don't think there is a western country that has the same issue with the border that we do.  The last 30 years now has been a slow tilt in this country towards the wealthy and corporations.  Trump is just continued that slow tilt.

 

The courts and environmental regulations are the places where you could argue that Trump is massively and drastically pushing things to an extreme, though most people won't see/feel the effects of that for years.

 

On the other hand, the left Democrats at least are calling for relatively rapid extreme pushes to the left globally:

 

For example, Sanders talks about nationalized healthcare that covers everything (including prescription drugs) without co-pays or a deductible.  I don't think there's a non-communist/dictatorship (e.g. Cuba) in the world that does that.  In a country like Canada, individuals do have some out of pocket health care costs.

 

On healthcare, what Sanders has proposed is globally far left.

 

You have a similar issue with free college.  The countries that have free college tend to have very rigorous admission standards where you are shunted into a college or not college tract pretty early.

 

In Germany, for people 28-34 years old only 28% of the population has a college degree.  In the US that same number is 43%.

 

Nationally, paying for free college for 28% of the population that have been demonstrating for years before college they are high academic achievers is one thing.

 

Paying for free college for 43% of the country is another thing. (and really given how things work now unless we go to a German like system that number is likely going to go up i.e. if college is free there will people that don't currently go that will start going unless you restric them from going).

 

Coupling our current academic/college admission system (where lots of people have the chance to go to college, including people that were bad students in high school) with a German system of free college is globally far left.

 

And I don't think there is another country that is doing it.

 

(And if AOC plans to couple free college with some overhaul of the system to limit who goes to college she hasn't talked about it.)

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To clarify, I'd suspect K-16 does mean free undergraduate public college. I'd also suspect that the idea isn't as far left as people think. We already cover primary and secondary through property taxes (and other means). Is it really that far left to cover the next step? 

 

I'd be curious though which colleges would actually want the DOE to be more involved in their day to day activities as I'd suspect that the free college money would come with lots and lots of new regulations.

 

Edit..and Peter just covered it much better than me. So..there's that.

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LOL.  Trump is a corrupt, racist moron with no business being President and does immeasurable damage to America's standing in the world order every day he remains BUT I'm not sure I want poor people to have reasonable access to healthcare or for college to be affordable.  

 

Image result for it's a tough one gif

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24 minutes ago, tshile said:

No, and ultimately that's the argument that keeps getting thrown at me (and others with my concerns.

 

I think it's possible down-ballot results are drastically different than people are calling for, if the anti-trump movement actually shows up in full force. I'm not counting on it, just saying it seems reasonably possible to me.

 

Even if there is another anti-Trump wave, it will most likely usher in even more moderate democrats into the House. Look at the cook political map, most toss ups are in moderate districts and if there is a big anti-Trump wave, most newly elected Democrats would come from lean-R districts:

 

https://cookpolitical.com/ratings/house-race-ratings

 

This is not a con job, it's a simple fact that an even bigger anti-Trump wave than 2018 would elect a majority of new center-left candidates throughout the country and not AOC's.

 

17 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

The Democratic Party is a conservative party.

 

 

Image result for facepalm

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11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

LOL.  Trump is a corrupt, racist moron with no business being President and does immeasurable damage to America's standing in the world order every day he remains 

 

 

Exactly

 

you all have managed to craft a platform that actually makes some of us realize we might not be able to support it. 

 

Based solely on how bad trump is you should win in a landslide. 

 

Are you going to?

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13 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

On the other hand, the left Democrats at least are calling for relatively rapid extreme pushes to the left globally:

 

For example, Sanders talks about nationalized healthcare that covers everything (including prescription drugs) without co-pays or a deductible.  I don't think there's a non-communist/dictatorship (e.g. Cuba) in the world that does that.  In a country like Canada, individuals do have some out of pocket health care costs.

 

Sanders is not a Democrat.  What your post did was compare the middle ground of the GOP to the extreme left flank of the Democrats.  

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16 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

I voted for Hillary and will absolutely vote for an Democrat in 2020.  But...

 

I’m thankful for your post. I wouldn’t and haven’t written something that well on the subject and you don’t bring baggage to the conversation like I do

 

I’m glad someone else is able to see the situation that way. 

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9 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Sanders is not a Democrat.  What your post did was compare the middle ground of the GOP to the extreme left flank of the Democrats.  

 

Okay, he's running for President as a Democrat, and he ran 4 years ago as a Democrat.  And it isn't like he's polling at 0%.  He's pretty popular among Democrats.

 

I'm aware of that I talked about the extreme far left flank of the Democrats.

 

I specifically said the left Democrats, and I specifically talked about Sanders, which I think everybody here recognizes as to what he is and where he is.

10 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

 

Exactly

 

you all have managed to craft a platform that actually makes some of us realize we might not be able to support it. 

 

Based solely on how bad trump is you should win in a landslide. 

 

Are you going to?

 

They can't really win a landslide though because if they put up a (completely) moderate platform, they don't turn out the progressives.

 

The Democrats have to hit a sweet spot.  With Trump, the sweet spot is larger than in other years, but they still have to hit it.

 

(I mean no matter what they do, they just aren't going to win large swaths of the south and other rural states.)

 

 

On another front in terms of Democrats actually enacting far left policies, I'll also point out that I think at this point in time that the Democrats are actually going to run into issues with the Supreme Court if they try to put in some more far left policies.

 

Sanders proposal restricts what private health insurance companies can cover/offer.  Given the current Supreme Court, I suspect that wouldn't stand (which then causes issues for his over all proposal) as Constitutional.

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4 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Okay, he's running for President as a Democrat, and he ran 4 years ago as a Democrat.  And it isn't like he's polling at 0%.  He's pretty popular among Democrats.

 

I'm aware of that I talked about the extreme far left flank of the Democrats.

 

I specifically said the left Democrats, and I specifically talked about Sanders, which I think everybody here recognizes as to what he is and where he is.

 

He's at roughly 13% despite having 100% name recognition.  I wouldn't call it being pretty popular when everyone knows who you are and only 13% like you.  

 

So long as you are aware that you weren't making an apples to apples comparison, carry on. :)

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7 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

He's at roughly 13% despite having 100% name recognition.  I wouldn't call it being pretty popular when everyone knows who you are and only 13% like you.  

 

So long as you are aware that you weren't making an apples to apples comparison, carry on. :)

 

The 13% isn't the percent that like you and that 13% puts him in 2nd or 3rd place.

 

He's got a 78% favorable approval rating among Democrats.  78% of Democrats like him.

 

He's pretty popular.

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