tshile Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 49 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: If the "moderate" right looks at Warren and thinks "socialist" the country is doomed already. This is where i've become very frustrated with the democrats this election cycle. And I don't mean you or other posters here, because what you guys say is correct when it comes to policy ideas and what is/isn't socialist etc etc etc, I mean the actually political arm that controls the democrats (We can say DNC but we know there's factions inside and some have more pull than others, etc) They want to hang their hat on the definition of socialism vs someone like Warren. They point out the differences etc. And in the face of criticism they point to this and say "But that's not true", the context can be imagined here there's plenty of examples. But they either choose to ignore, or choose to not care, that there's a meaningful percentage of the population that does not, or can not, and will not accept such a distinction. So yeah, the "moderate right" in my estimate is full of people who view Warren as a socialist. They view her policy ideas as being a move towards that thing they're conditioned to reject. And everyone can make comments about how they're dumb, or whatever, but the end result is that these people vote and you're giving them a choice they refuse to vote for. At a time where all the Democrats need to oust trump is to strong appeal to the middle, they seem to be choosing to go very progressive. It almost seems as though instead of saying "All we need is to capture moderates and independents, and that should be very easy right now" They're saying "Hey, this is the most disenfranchised/angry/upset/concerned the moderates and "moderate right" has been with establishment GOP in decades. This is our chance to get their support for progressive ideals" Except, from what I'm seeing and what my gut tells me, they are not and will not be interested in the Dem's progressive ideas. At all. And that the Dems are basically rolling the dice that these people will either vote 3rd party or not vote at all simply because they don't like Warren and they don't like Trump. But what I think is very, very possible is that they will decide that Trump is the evil they know and that is better than Warren, which at best is the evil they don't know to them and more likely is the evil they know is greater (In their minds, of course.) After all, that's why many of them (supposedly) voted Trump over Clinton last time (for different reasons, but same general idea) I've heard multiple people that I know, for a fact, hate and despise trump. Some of them voted for Clinton, none of them voted for trump in 2016. And they're all saying 'no way' to warren. The people that did vote for Trump that I feel would absolutely vote against him for a moderate? They not going to entertain Warren... they just aren't. Sometimes perception is the reality you need to fight. And there's a perception problem with progressive politics that I think the dems have always struggled with, and I don't think they're doing a good job with it right now. The dems are miscalculating in my mind. That either these people don't matter (not enough of them), or that how they choose to vote will not hurt them (stay home or vote third party.) I think they're wrong. But I'm clearly just guessing based on a limited view into the general public... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 11 minutes ago, tshile said: This is where i've become very frustrated with the democrats this election cycle. So I can be on board with the Democrats being weak sauce on their messaging. That isn't anything new, IMO. However what is out of their control is the fact that Fox News and right-wing radio, blogs, etc etc control the minds of so many that they are beyond being reasoned with. If you divide the country up, I think it is safe to say 40% will always vote Dems, 40% will always vote GOP, so there is the 20% being competed for. (Outside of just being able to energize folks from the each base that don't normally vote in the first place) The biggest issue to me is how dishonest right-wing media is willing to be in order to create false narratives. (I am not suggesting the left is beyond doing this too in some cases). It isn't anything new, FDR was called a socialist too, but it seems like this kind of nonsense has a lot more sticking power now then it did before. I honestly have no idea how you combat all the outright BS floating out there that gets into people's heads and just takes on it's own life. It's the same frustration I have when people like Warren are denounced as being "way too left to be elected" yet if you removed her name from the equation, those same people are very likely to agree with her down the line on the actual issues. Your comment about Trump being the evil they know versus Warren being the evil they don't know. Therein lies a major issue, they THINK THEY KNOW, because of what Sean Hannity, Mark Levin, Dennis Prager, Larry Elder....have told them she is. That is the extent of their knowledge of her. As another poster said after my reply....nobody even seems to actually understand what socialism, or even capitalism for that matter is or means anymore. They are just these abstract terms that people throw around. It's just a dirty game, and in the end it is the people who are hurt by it due to how the wealth elite have been able to lobby and get things changed in their favor. The older I get, the more jaded I become, and less hope I have that this ever gets solved until it becomes so bad for the working poor and even lower end of the middle class that something bigger ends up happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 38 minutes ago, Larry said: Just pointing out, you're responding to a poster who is arguing that he's not a corporate shill, he's a moderate, by pointing out that he supports giving people the option of Medicare, but doesn't mandate it (right away)." Nope. Whom and what I responded to was right in the quote box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I don’t disagree with that except to say that the people I’m talking about don’t watch or listen to the media you’re talking about. the whole thing feels similar to the electors college arguments. I may not agree with dems on the solution of using a popular vote, but I understand why they see it the way they do. but that doesn’t change the rules of the game and the way it’s played. Complain all you want, if you don’t figure out how to play the game by its rules you’re not going to win... likewise, trotting Warren out there and saying “but you don’t understand the definition of socialism” doesn’t feel like a winning strategy to me. of course my criticisms may be unfair at the moment because you might not be able to fix this in a primary. You might have to wait until the general and there’s 1 candidate to discuss. it just doesn’t feel good to me at the moment. I want trump out. Clinton getting involved and nominating someone that carries the “socialist baggage” doesn’t feel like a winning move. a woman the other night said “I can’t believe they’re going to nominate another woman I can’t vote for”. This person hates trump. These people exist. It seems to me the Democrats need them. But what do I know? I thought there was no way trump could win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Did they say who specifically they supported? Also I notice you mentioned earlier that at least some of them voted for Hillary, but I assume the woman at the end there didn't? 4 minutes ago, tshile said: I don’t disagree with that except to say that the people I’m talking about don’t watch or listen to the media you’re talking about. the whole thing feels similar to the electors college arguments. I may not agree with dems on the solution of using a popular vote, but I understand why they see it the way they do. but that doesn’t change the rules of the game and the way it’s played. Complain all you want, if you don’t figure out how to play the game by its rules you’re not going to win... likewise, trotting Warren out there and saying “but you don’t understand the definition of socialism” doesn’t feel like a winning strategy to me. of course my criticisms may be unfair at the moment because you might not be able to fix this in a primary. You might have to wait until the general and there’s 1 candidate to discuss. it just doesn’t feel good to me at the moment. I want trump out. Clinton getting involved and nominating someone that carries the “socialist baggage” doesn’t feel like a winning move. a woman the other night said “I can’t believe they’re going to nominate another woman I can’t vote for”. This person hates trump. These people exist. It seems to me the Democrats need them. But what do I know? I thought there was no way trump could win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 “A lot of people are saying...” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said: “A lot of people are saying...” That voting for trump in the primary would be a good joke amirite ? 9 minutes ago, visionary said: Did they say who specifically they supported? Also I notice you mentioned earlier that at least some of them voted for Hillary, but I assume the woman at the end there didn't? she says she didn’t but I can’t be sure they liked the idea of Biden but without the baggage Pete and yang were a lot of favorites I’ve heard over the months. Kamala had her moment but I think she said something about reputations months back? I can’t remember. gabbard gets mentioned for being hot but that’s about it everyone seems to only really talk about sanders Warren and Biden. I’m not sure how dialed in any of them are To be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, tshile said: That voting for trump in the primary would be a good joke amirite ? Aaah...I’m sad you got triggered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, tshile said: I don’t disagree with that except to say that the people I’m talking about don’t watch or listen to the media you’re talking about. the whole thing feels similar to the electors college arguments. I may not agree with dems on the solution of using a popular vote, but I understand why they see it the way they do. but that doesn’t change the rules of the game and the way it’s played. Complain all you want, if you don’t figure out how to play the game by its rules you’re not going to win... likewise, trotting Warren out there and saying “but you don’t understand the definition of socialism” doesn’t feel like a winning strategy to me. of course my criticisms may be unfair at the moment because you might not be able to fix this in a primary. You might have to wait until the general and there’s 1 candidate to discuss. it just doesn’t feel good to me at the moment. I want trump out. Clinton getting involved and nominating someone that carries the “socialist baggage” doesn’t feel like a winning move. a woman the other night said “I can’t believe they’re going to nominate another woman I can’t vote for”. This person hates trump. These people exist. It seems to me the Democrats need them. But what do I know? I thought there was no way trump could win. I agree with you and fear that the candidate that wins the Dem primary may be the least capable of winning the general. The problem of selling that view to the liberal base of the Dem party is that they already did the "hold your nose and nominate the candidate with the best chance in the general" in 2016. I think many would rightly say that Hillary was a terrible candidate to sell to the moderates because she had too much baggage. Well, a candidate that can appeal to the moderates and still fire up the base may not exist in 2020 (probably the last one was 2008 Obama). And they see the GOP nominate whack jobs after whack jobs and still win seats in Congress and the Trump presidency. I think many in the Dem party are now saying if we are gonna go down anyway after triangulating and nominating to the middle, we might as well swing for the fences and nominate someone who wholly represents our ideals. It's gonna be a base vs base election. I think the traditional road to victory for the Dem would have been a moderate candidate who can take up the vacuum left behind by the ever shifting GOP. As it stands right now, you have both parties moving towards opposing ends of the spectrum, thinking that it's easier to rally votes at the extreme ends than to convince the moderate swing voters to vote for them (and not lose the base voters in the process). There's a political middle that's begging for a moderate centrist party right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I see what you are saying tshille but if people want a say in who defeats Trump, they should take part in the Dem primary. Dem primary voters shouldn’t be tasked with keeping the sensitivities of a sliver of center-right voters in mind when they go to the polls. “I like Elizabeth Warren but what will my Trump hating GOP neighbor want me to do???” isn’t going to happen. The Trump hating GOP neighbor should instead look into how he/she can participate in the Dem primary and cast their ballot for the candidate they finds most relatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Just now, TryTheBeal! said: Aaah...I’m sad you got triggered. just calling a spade a spade youre pretty simple to figure out eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 2 minutes ago, tshile said: just calling a spade a spade youre pretty simple to figure out eh? I’ll send another $500 to Warren tonight...in your name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 If people don't vote against Trump, no matter who the candidate is, we've lost anyways. I can't wrap my head around supporting this trash for another four years. I'm so ready for it to be over, and then I see that they are grooming Don Jr. for the next wave. We might just be done. Oohhh, Caaaannnadahhh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 @No Excuses youre right. and my state is open you can vote in either. But that’s months away and maybe it’s just way too early to be concerned about this. and @bearrock I think your post makes tons of sense. I don’t think it changes the issue but it makes sense. the left definitely had to worry about alienating their progressive wing as much as appealing to moderates. And if I knew how to do that I’d be working in politics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Larry said: Not disputing your assertion. (Although I've seen the "corporate shill" label used as a synonym for "doesn't think capitalism should be criminalized".) But could you elaborate? All I know about him is "I like the way he handles an interview." The best example is his pivot from supporting Medicare for All to now running ads that are against Medicare for All. I don’t think any candidate is saying or suggesting capitalism should be criminalized though. 3 hours ago, Dan T. said: Empty words spoken with no evidence to back it up. Moderate does NOT equal "corporate shill." We literally pointed this out a few pages ago. It has nothing to do with dude being a moderate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 27 minutes ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Nope. Whom and what I responded to was right in the quote box. Yep. This quote box. 3 hours ago, Dan T. said: Empty words spoken with no evidence to back it up. Moderate does NOT equal "corporate shill." Again - You're responding to somebody who's entire post is to state that Pete isn't a corporate shill, he's a moderate, by pointing out that he doesn't want the government to completely take over all health care, he just wants to give people the option of government health care. A position which seems a lot closer to "moderate" (in fact, I'd argue "moderate left") than "corporate shill", to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I guess the most frustrating part of the entire situation is that in a country that felt Donald Trump was mainstream enough to give a chance to, people like Elizabeth Warren are somehow deemed too "whatever they want to insert here." The fact that Trump got as much support as he did, should logically shred any notion that any other candidate, on either side for that matter, is too "anything" to be electable. To me Donald Trump is evidence enough of how tribal this country has become. Tshile, I respect your thoughts and comments on this matter, but somehow I am willing to assume that regardless of who wins the Dem nominee, everything the right-wing is saying about Warren & Bernie, will simply be replaced by "Insert Dem Candidate" here, and the same people who claimed "I would love to not vote for Trump" will simply find brand new justifications to not vote for the newly crowned "too left to vote for" candidate of the Democratic party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 9 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said: If people don't vote against Trump, no matter who the candidate is, we've lost anyways. I can't wrap my head around supporting this trash for another four years. I'm so ready for it to be over, and then I see that they are grooming Don Jr. for the next wave. We might just be done. Oohhh, Caaaannnadahhh. because the option isn’t incompetent buffoon vs competent policy wonk the choice will be (for the people I’m talking about) incompetent buffoon vs someone that’s running on a platform they’ve been against their whole life im not saying it’s right or fair, I’m saying it’s reality. And it’s part of the game we’re playing. It matters (but maybe I’m wrong and it doesn’t) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said: The best example is his pivot from supporting Medicare for All to now running ads that are against Medicare for All. So target him for being a flip-flopper. Sounds like he's guilty. And it's something that he should rightfully be forced to defend. (Especially for a candidate who doesn't have a record to run on.) But as for the assertion that "failure to support a complete government takeover of all health insurance makes somebody a corporate shill", see my previous post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Just now, tshile said: im not saying it’s right or fair, I’m saying it’s reality. And it’s part of the game we’re playing. It matters I live in Trump land. I'm the only liberal in my entire family tree. I know exactly what we're dealing with. I'm not saying that you're wrong. I'm saying that if the insanity of the past four years isn't enough to get Dems out in record number to vote against this dude, then we're never going back anyway. I don't think it's hyperbole to say that our country as we know it will not survive a second term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 5 minutes ago, tshile said: because the option isn’t incompetent buffoon vs competent policy wonk the choice will be (for the people I’m talking about) incompetent buffoon vs someone that’s running on a platform they’ve been against their whole life Just like it was three years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 4 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: I guess the most frustrating part of the entire situation is that in a country that felt Donald Trump was mainstream enough to give a chance to, people like Elizabeth Warren are somehow deemed too "whatever they want to insert here." The fact that Trump got as much support as he did, should logically shred any notion that any other candidate, on either side for that matter, is too "anything" to be electable. For me, the most frustrating part is that, okay, people gave Trump a shot 3 years ago hoping that he'd grow into the job and not be a complete train wreck. Here we are 3 years later, he remains totally unqualified and unpresidential, is patently corrupt, and has been a much bigger train wreck than anyone even imagined, yet he's still probably the odds-on favorite because people will find out some minor nit to pick about each D candidate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 8 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: Tshile, I respect your thoughts and comments on this matter, but somehow I am willing to assume that regardless of who wins the Dem nominee, everything the right-wing is saying about Warren & Bernie, will simply be replaced by "Insert Dem Candidate" here, and the same people who claimed "I would love to not vote for Trump" will simply find brand new justifications to not vote for the newly crowned "too left to vote for" candidate of the Democratic party. Yeah you can’t ignore that some people are full of crap and “if they didn’t pick a socialist” will be used to justify voting for trump (or third party) no matter who it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bozo the kKklown Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 7 minutes ago, Larry said: So target him for being a flip-flopper. Sounds like he's guilty. And it's something that he should rightfully be forced to defend. (Especially for a candidate who doesn't have a record to run on.) But as for the assertion that "failure to support a complete government takeover of all health insurance makes somebody a corporate shill", see my previous post. You don’t think that flip flop has anything to do with him leading in donations from the healthcare sector? https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2019/07/20dems-are-taking-money-healthcare/ I think corporate shill is deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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