Rdskns2000

Presidential Election :11/3/2020- Trump the Impeached vs Superplanner Lizzie, Shake Your Booty Pete & some other Dems

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3 minutes ago, twa said:

 

I thought I was already here.....is this just a dream?

I don't know.  It's your imagination, remember?  #StillWaitingforBradPittFace

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Well, the one advantage of voting for someone like Schulz (according to Trumpsters and the "Resistance") is you actually get three votes; one for Trump, one for the Dem nominee, and one for Schulz (or whoever you ended up voting for). 

Edited by nonniey
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1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I don't think this is fair.  If someone doesn't vote the way you like, their opinions are worthless?

 

That's a ridiculous generalization of a very specific point.

 

Specifically, though, if you still support Republicans, you are supporting Trump. This then invalidates any apparent criticism of Trump. You're basically Susan Collins expressing "concerns" then voting party line anyway.

 

Do you feel Susan Collins' "concerns" have any value? I don't.

 

Likewise voting third party in any election that is run in a two party system. Pretending otherwise is to stick one's head in the sand and ignore reality which has been proven over and over, academically and experientially. The only exception would be Maine, with the ranked choice system.

 

And no, it's not fair. But that's the way it is.

 

The first election I voted in was 1992. I voted straight ticket Republican every year until 2016.

 

In 2016, because of Trump, I voted for Hillary Clinton, because that was the only thing that would send a message to the Republican party. I didn't like it, but I did it.

 

If you built a time machine and went back to 1992, and told 1992 me that 2016 me voted for Hillary Clinton, 1992 me would deck you, hijack the machine, and take it back to 2016 to stop it.

 

Since then, the Republican party hasn't pulled away. They've gone all in.

 

I will therefore be voting straight ticket Democrat for the forseeable future.

 

Is that fair? No. It sucks. But that's the real world.

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9 minutes ago, techboy said:

 

 

Since then, the Republican party hasn't pulled away. They've gone all in.

 

I will therefore be voting straight ticket Democrat for the forseeable future.

 

Is that fair? No. It sucks. But that's the real world.

 

Rick Wilson has joined the conversation! LOL I kid I kid......

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1 hour ago, techboy said:

Specifically, though, if you still support Republicans, you are supporting Trump. This then invalidates any apparent criticism of Trump. 

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but you seem to say I made an over-generalization of a specific point.  And then go on to validate my over-generalization.

 

1 hour ago, techboy said:

Specifically, though, if you still support Republicans, you are supporting Trump. This then invalidates any apparent criticism of Trump.

While I am not one of them, I know many people who still side with the GOP but don't like Trump.  While it may be right to judge them, I don't think it invalidates any points they make automatically.  *Note:  This does not apply to the window-licker Trump supporters.  **** them.

 

1 hour ago, techboy said:

Do you feel Susan Collins' "concerns" have any value? I don't.

Yes.  Though I can say her concerns have value and also point out that she then throws those concerns out the window when it is time to vote.  But her concerns are valid nonetheless.  

 

1 hour ago, techboy said:

 

Likewise voting third party in any election that is run in a two party system. Pretending otherwise is to stick one's head in the sand and ignore reality which has been proven over and over, academically and experientially.

I disagree here.  But the voting third party argument has been had enough here.

 

1 hour ago, techboy said:

In 2016, because of Trump, I voted for Hillary Clinton, because that was the only thing that would send a message to the Republican party. I didn't like it, but I did it.

I'm glad that is how you decided to send your message.  But others can do their own way.  Personally, I used to vote for the most liberal person on the ticket in the primaries.  Even if I didn't agree/like them, that was my way of sending a message to come back towards center.  Edit:  And the last way I sent my message was by de-registering as a Republican hoping they would see they were losing numbers in Florida (where I am registered) and reconsider their path.

 

1 hour ago, techboy said:

I will therefore be voting straight ticket Democrat for the forseeable future

Again, good for you.  But people that decide to take another path can have value in their opinions also.  In this mid-term, I voted Dem all the way until I got to AG if I remember correctly.  I ended up with a mixed bag. 

 

 

Edited by TheGreatBuzz
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1 hour ago, techboy said:

Likewise voting third party in any election that is run in a two party system. Pretending otherwise is to stick one's head in the sand and ignore reality which has been proven over and over, academically and experientially.

 

The options are show support for one party or show support for neither

 

voting third party is showing support for neither

 

If you want someone’s vote give them a reason to vote for you

 

Relying on the other option to be worse is a bull**** game 

 

chastizing those of us who refuse to be used that way is also bull****. 

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1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Maybe I'm reading you wrong but you seem to say I made an over-generalization of a specific point.  And then go on to validate my over-generalization.

 

The generalization was in your attempted summary. I'm not talking about any vote making any comment worthless.

 

I am making the specific claim that continuing to support Republicans makes criticism of Trump meaningless. I then extended it to voting third party in that specific context.

 

Note that this is not a general claim... I myself supported Republicans until 2016 and I actually can think of good reasons to vote third party.

 

Just not right now, or for the foreseeable future.

 

Again, not fair, but then, as our movie parents tell us, life isn't fair.

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1 hour ago, techboy said:

Again, not fair, but then, as our movie parents tell us, life isn't fair.

So to wrap this up, people who disagree with you and vote GOP for whatever reason,  their opinions are worthless.  Did I get it this time?

 

I still think you're wrong.

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I don’t think it’s fair to lump people who have voted for Democrats and have mostly stopped supporting Republicans though they are critical of Democrats with someone who has said he will never vote for Democrats and has rooted the GOP and Republican leadership on to this day.  Though someone like that still differs from a rabid Trump supporter who cheers everything he does and doesn’t listen to reason on any issue.

Edited by visionary
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1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So to wrap this up, people who disagree with you and vote GOP for whatever reason,  their opinions are worthless.  Did I get it this time?

 

No. Allow me to simplify it further.

 

IF you express a negative opinion about Trump AND you still vote for/support Republicans THEN your negative opinion about Trump is worthless.

 

My language has always been very precise and limited to these specific conditions.

 

Such a person could hold a variety of other opinions on subjects ranging from baseball to the proper way to cook a steak, and even opinions on other topics in politics. Only his or her opinion on Trump is meaningless because it was undermined by his or her actions. 

 

You will not, for example, find me telling @nonniey that he shouldn't offer his opinion here about the border wall, gun control, abortion, or the latest tax legislation.

 

My comment, which I stand behind 100%, is that his continued support of Republicans makes his supposed disdain for Trump so much empty nothingness.

 

Honestly, that wasn't even my primary goal. I'm sure he doesn't care that I think his opinion on Trump is worthless because of that disqualification.

 

Really, I was just letting him know one reason why many people ignore his protestations that he doesn't like Trump, since he was commenting on that fact.

 

I hope that is more clear. If it isn't, I don't know how else to explain it, and I imagine we've both spent enough time and energy on the topic anyway.

Edited by techboy

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I find that explanation lacking.

Despite the common theme,Trump is not the party, and your position only elevates Trump.

 

Enjoy your choices....if that is even possible.

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8 hours ago, techboy said:

 

I hope that is more clear. If it isn't, I don't know how else to explain it, and I imagine we've both spent enough time and energy on the topic anyway.

Thanks that does clear it up more.  I still disagree with you though.  I've made my disdain for trump quite clear.  But there are still Republicans I support.  Kasich comes immediately to mind.

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@BenningRoadSkin So this entire time I thought Hakeen Jeffries and Cory Booker were the same person. Thats wrong on many levels, I know. I didnt realism this mistake until I started reading up on what you were telling me about Booker (of which, btw, im still forming my opinion on, but im curious if you think his voting record has anything to do with the make up of the jobs in his state?) 

 

Jeffries is the one I think would scare people. I think the first time I ever saw that brotha smile was when he was discussing Manafort getting basically life in prison last night. 

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10 hours ago, twa said:

Despite the common theme,Trump is not the party. . . . 

 

Oh, clearly.  

 

I mean, let's look at all of the huge differences.  

 

Whenever Trump does something monumentally stupid and harmful to the country (meaning, every few days), one or two Republicans will make pathetic bleating noises that they wish he had spun his message a little differently.  

 

Occasionally, when a piece of his legislation or an appointment is up for a vote, one or two Republicans will make an announcement that they might think about voting against him.  Occasionally, one or two will actually vote that way.  (After carefully conspiring behind closed doors to make sure that their vote doesn't actually prevent his measure from passing anyway.)  

 

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11 hours ago, twa said:

Despite the common theme,Trump is not the party,

 

You are right. Trump is a symptom. He correctly recognized that racist perverts are the choice of preference for the conservative base. 

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24 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

You are right. Trump is a symptom. He correctly recognized that racist perverts are the choice of preference for the conservative base. 

 

Certainly for a fraction of his supporters, between those and those yearning for nationalism he managed to win in the enlightened North.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

In the end, he will not be the nominee.  Joe Biden is out of step of where the energy is in the Democratic party is today.  His record will be picked apart and will not hold up,  by today's standards.  Joe wold've been the better option in 2016.

Edited by Rdskns2000

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The GOP don't even need to vote for a Democrat in 2020, simply staying home in big enough numbers to lead to Trump losing would send a big enough message that the GOP base is not going to stand for Trumpism in their party.   It's a short term message that carries little to no long term effects for the party overall besides the rank & file putting action behind their supposed sentiment.  


On the other hand, voting to re-elect Trump, is basically saying there are little to no bounds of indecency and stupidity they won't put up with as long as it's not a Democrat.


And before any Conservatives ask what Dems would do in the same situation?  See 2016 Presidential election. 

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51 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

In the end, he will not be the nominee.  Joe Biden is out of step of where the energy is in the Democratic party is today.  His record will be picked apart and will not hold up,  by today's standards.  Joe wold've been the better option in 2016.

 

Where do you see the energy in the democratic party? (By that you mean the future of the party?)  

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Putting this here because Andrew Yang is running for President.  Interesting conversation on the need for universal basic income.  He brings up a lot of interesting points in favor of the idea not just as a "feel-good" thing, but why it will be necessary.

 

http://podcasts.joerogan.net/podcasts/andrew-yang

Edited by NoCalMike

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31 minutes ago, grego said:

 

Where do you see the energy in the democratic party? (By that you mean the future of the party?)  

Kamala, Bernie, Lizzy- on the issues, Cory, AOC, etc..   The various strands of progressivism.

 

Biden is more like a Clinton democrat.  Centrists/Pragmatic Dems aren't in vogue and despite the polls showing Biden leading; by the time we get to actual voting next February, he won't do well.  

 

I am convinced the Dem primary electorate aren't going to give the nomination to some 78 year old, white  guy.

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The energy is not with Biden, but his pitch is calm, experienced leadership, which has nothing to do with policy.  That's a pretty powerful pitch in the face of constant chaos.  

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9 minutes ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Kamala, Bernie, Lizzy- on the issues, Cory, AOC, etc..   The various strands of progressivism.

 

Biden is more like a Clinton democrat.  Centrists/Pragmatic Dems aren't in vogue and despite the polls showing Biden leading; by the time we get to actual voting next February, he won't do well.  

 

I am convinced the Dem primary electorate aren't going to give the nomination to some 78 year old, white  guy.

 

I've heard differing things about where the dems are. One poll had moderate policy preference vs more progressive at 54 ish percent to 40, iirc (pew, I think). Another had progressives making up only 8% of the total electorate. 

 

Either way, doesn't a divided democratic party scare anyone?  It does me, and I don't see any great unifier. But I could be wrong. 

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