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Presidential Election: 11/3/20 ---Now the President Elect Joe Biden Thread


88Comrade2000
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Something I've always been curious about is at what point exactly a "far left/right/whatever" position changes to a mainstream position. IIRC multiple polls have shown that a majority (or at least a plurality) of Americans now favor some form of universal/single payer health care. Doesn't that sort of take it out of the whole "extreme left wing" pantheon of ideas?

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5 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Something I've always been curious about is at what point exactly a "far left/right/whatever" position changes to a mainstream position. IIRC multiple polls have shown that a majority (or at least a plurality) of Americans now favor some form of universal/single payer health care. Doesn't that sort of take it out of the whole "extreme left wing" pantheon of ideas?

 

There's levels to it.  Most American's do not support single payer health care, that is the Bernie plan where the g'ment takes it all over, private health insurance goes away, and everyone MUST get their health insurance from the government.  That's not universally popular even among Democrats.  

 

What most Americans support is a public option where you can either (1) keep your private healthcare provided through your employer if you like it OR (2) opt into a publicly administered healthcare plan, likely run though Medicare.  

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45 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

Even if there is another anti-Trump wave, it will most likely usher in even more moderate democrats into the House. Look at the cook political map, most toss ups are in moderate districts and if there is a big anti-Trump wave, most newly elected Democrats would come from lean-R districts:

 

https://cookpolitical.com/ratings/house-race-ratings

 

This is not a con job, it's a simple fact that an even bigger anti-Trump wave than 2018 would elect a majority of new center-left candidates throughout the country and not AOC's.

 

 

 

 

 

But the safe Blue districts seem to be swinging harder left, even mine.

What position did AOC get appointed to despite you claiming her as a outlier/fringe?

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3 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Buzz would rather lapse into nihilism than vote for someone who might expand Medicare.

 

It's not very often I have to look up a word.  Good job on that.  And if you care to go find it, I made a post of who I voted for in the 2018 election.  If I remember correctly, there were two R's and the rest were Dem's.  But I'm still just a GOP shill I guess.......

 

But to show how little you actually know about me, I'm fine with expanding Medicare.  Though I'm angry at pretty much every politician because they all talk about how to pay for medical care instead of addressing why it costs so much to begin with.  And as someone who currently is in government run health care (military), I also think people will be in for a rude awakening at the quality of a government run program.  I liken it to the old saying about gay marriage; "why shouldn't gay people be allowed to marry?  They deserve the right to be just as unhappy as everyone else." 

 

2 hours ago, No Excuses said:

A “hard left agenda” wouldn’t even pass a Dem controlled house and it’s probably unlikely that the Dems win the Senate anyways. 

 

You guys are being seriously overdramatic vote divas. Besides Bernie, every other Dem candidate would run your standard liberal administration. If you think that is somehow equivalent in terms of badness to the current ****show so be it. 

 

I'd say Warren is pretty hard left and she is steadily climbing the polls.  This all started when someone bet it would be a Warren/Harris ticket.  And a "their proposals wouldn't pass anyway" isn't really a platform I get behind.

 

1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

For instance, the current Democratic house passed a minimum wage increase that is phased out over six years: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/house-passes-raise-the-wage-act-15-per-hour-minimum-wage-bill.html

 

This would hardly qualify as “far left”.

 

1) That was a worthless show vote.  They know it has no chance of passing.  And from what I heard on the news (take that for what it's worth), they didn't even attempt to get any Repbulicans on board (for what little good that would have done).  And yes I consider a $15 minimum wage across the country to be far left.  I've said before minimum wage needs to be a sliding scale based on cost of living in a particular area.  And they information is already out there.  The military uses it to decide how much housing allowance to give us.

 

1 hour ago, Fresh8686 said:


Would you please tell me which policies on the left are so alarming or hate-inducing that you are willing to have Trump instead for another 4-16 years? @TheGreatBuzz and @thegreaterbuzzette if you have an answer to this question as well, I'd appreciate it.

I am having a hard time understanding what actual policies come across as worse than what Trump is doing? Please be specific. I really want to understand if I can, because when I can't figure out the rationale it makes it all too easy to conclude that people who think this way are terrible or ignorant people, who are apathetic to anyone other than themselves. And I don't want to have to feel that if I can find a better rationale.

 

I wouldn't call them "hate-inducing".  But I just spoke about the minimum wage bill.  Free college I call far left.  I could get behind some type of free or discounted trade school though.  Do you know how many jobs there are for welders out there right now?  And they make decent money, especially once they have some experience.  I'm fine with some increased gun control but now the sweeping bans some have proposed.  There is other stuff.  PeterMP I think it was made a good list on the last page.

 

59 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Sanders is not a Democrat.  

 

People keep saying this and it doesn't make much sense.  Polling aside, if he isn't a Democrat, someone should really let the DNC know that.  As long as the DNC is letting him call himself a Democrat, that's what he is.

 

58 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I’m thankful for your post. I wouldn’t and haven’t written something that well on the subject and you don’t bring baggage to the conversation like I do

 

I’m glad someone else is able to see the situation that way. 

 

I second this.

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13 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Something I've always been curious about is at what point exactly a "far left/right/whatever" position changes to a mainstream position. IIRC multiple polls have shown that a majority (or at least a plurality) of Americans now favor some form of universal/single payer health care. Doesn't that sort of take it out of the whole "extreme left wing" pantheon of ideas?

 

What pleaseblitz said is absolutely the crux of it for me. 

 

For example i was for ACA. I was actually for MFA until about a month ago. All along my republican friends have been telling me that ACA and MFA are just about moving to a universal single payer system. That was the end goal these are just steps to get there. 

 

And i I ignored them because I’ve adopted a mentally that the republicans are wrong about everything (which they aren’t). Well about a month ago in one of these threads everyone said the private system would go away, no doubt about it. I’m not ok with that. So I’ve changed my mind. 

 

In general solutions that involve the government taking over come across as far left to me. Student debt took high, govt will just pay it for you. Also we’ll make it free going forward. Healthcare too high? Well just make govt pay it for you. Etc. 

 

also policies that that rely on people being good natured, hard working, smart and victims  to work seem to usually be far left. They’re built on bull**** assumptions. That’s why I don’t think they will work. (I realize how that plays here. We’ve been down this road. )

 

basically those solutions that are “oh that’s expensive? Ok we’ll find someone else to pay for it for you”

 

other hallmarks if far left ideology:

claiming something is a right that

 

having all the academics in the world to back up an idea, but refuse to recognize very obvious and well recognized realities that conflict with it

 

Those are just general thoughts there are exceptions to everything. 

 

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42 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

4th and cratering according to the latest Q poll.  

 

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2631

 

Just a numbers game, in the race for popularity of ideas(to Dems) he is second...

 

Quote

In a question about which candidate has the best policy ideas, Warren takes the lead with 31 percent, compared to 19 percent in April. Sanders is next with 18 percent, while Biden receives 11 percent, a drop from 23 percent in April. Harris is at 8 percent, and no other candidate tops 3 percent. 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

 

If that upsets your neoliberal worldview, I don’t apologize. 

 

The Schrodinger's Democrat:

 

Somehow a neoliberal, while also being a conservative.

 

-------------

 

Just within this page, someone who supports Liz Warren has been labeled a neoliberal, conservative Democrat and hard-left. Never change Tailgate.

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14 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

The Schrodinger's Democrat:

 

Somehow a neoliberal, while also being a conservative.

 

-------------

 

Just within this page, someone who supports Liz Warren has been labeled a neoliberal, conservative Democrat and hard-left. Never change Tailgate.

 

Haha. For some reason this reminds me of the right wingers who called Obama a fascist communist atheist Muslim.   lol wut?

 

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18 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

People keep saying this and it doesn't make much sense.  Polling aside, if he isn't a Democrat, someone should really let the DNC know that.  As long as the DNC is letting him call himself a Democrat, that's what he is.

 

I'm sorry you are having trouble understanding this.  He is an independent that is running for the Democratic nomination, which is allowed.  

 

This is literally his bio on the US Senate website:

 

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/about

 

Quote

Bernie Sanders is serving his third term in the U.S. Senate after winning re-election in 2018. His previous 16 years in the House of Representatives make him the longest serving independent member of Congress in American history.

 

More:

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/21/bernie-sanders-democrat-independent-vermont-601844

 

Quote

Bernie Sanders is running for the Democratic nomination in Vermont — but he won’t accept it if he wins.

 

The famously independent senator, who briefly joined the Democratic Party to run in the 2016 New Hampshire presidential primary only to un-enroll later, officially announced Monday that he would seek a third term in the Senate this fall. He also said that he’ll pull the same maneuver that he did in his 2006 and 2012 Senate races: Running as a Democrat, declining the nomination when he wins and then running as an independent.

 

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25 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

  And a "their proposals wouldn't pass anyway" isn't really a platform I get behind.

Wait till you hear about this thing called politics....😉

 

 

Anyway, it's a negotiation, most plans don't end how they start. 

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9 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

I'm sorry you are having trouble understanding this.  He is an independent that is running for the Democratic nomination, which is allowed.  

 

This is literally his bio on the US Senate website:

 

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/about

 

 

More:

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/21/bernie-sanders-democrat-independent-vermont-601844

 

 

 

Well I guess NPR doesn't know what their doing.......

 

Quote

But last month, Sanders filed as a Democrat for president.

Quote

The party is requiring "affirmation" forms returned in writing to the party chairman declaring that fact. The DNC gave the form to all the declared campaigns last week during a briefing at party headquarters. Sanders and the others have until the middle of this week to return it. The Sanders' campaign says he intends to sign it.

Quote

And candidates must affirm in writing to the DNC chairman that they "are a Democrat... are a member of the Democratic Party; will accept the Democratic nomination; and will run and serve as a member of the Democratic Party."

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/04/700121429/bernie-sanders-files-to-run-as-a-democrat-and-an-independent

 

I mean it seems like the DNC has accepted him as a Democrat.

 

8 minutes ago, visionary said:

Wait till you hear about this thing called politics....😉

 

 

Anyway, it's a negotiation, most plans don't end how they start. 

True.  But I judge a candidate largely on where they want the country to be.  I judge them on their vision for America.

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15 minutes ago, visionary said:

Wait till you hear about this thing called politics....😉

 

Yeah I'm not following here either.

 

Presidential elections are full of pie in the sky policy proposals, a fraction of which ever get pushed forward because so much depends on the makeup of the legislative branch. Any Democrat, from Bernie to Biden, will be inheriting a Democratic House primarily made up of center-left liberals. The chances of a Democrat nuking private insurance are as likely as Trump building a wall covering the entire US-Mexico border.

 

Where Presidents have any kind of enforceable policy authority is within who they appoint to federal agencies to execute existing laws and regulations. My vote for Liz Warren is not so much that I care for her 10,000 policy papers on everything, but that I think she is the most likely to nominate sensible people to her cabinet and she is by far best suited to take on the predators and moochers embedded in Washington.

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In terms of free college, I'd like to add if comes with pretty heavy admission restrictions/requirements, it is really just going to be another benefit to the wealthy.

 

The wealthy are the most likely to put themselves in a position to get over what restrictions on it you put in place.

 

The NY state proposal based on income is much more reasonable then just saying free college.

 

DNC should have put in a provision in after the 2016 that if you are an elected official at the state or federal level to be part of the primary debates you have to have been a Democrat for at least 3 years.

 

Of course, everybody would have seen that as a way to exclude Sanders and progressives would have thrown a fit.

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46 minutes ago, tshile said:

claiming something is a right that. 

 

Everybody essentially believes that access health care is a right and are laws reflect that.  We don't just let people die on the street and nobody is really for letting people die on the street.

 

If society didn't believe that access to health care wasn't really a right, we wouldn't require hospitals to provide emergency care the way we do.

 

Like all rights though, it has limits (you can't yell fire in a crowded theater).  The health care debate isn't really about whether access to health care is a debate.  It is really an argument over the limits on that right.

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24 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

Well I guess NPR doesn't know what their doing.......

 

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/04/700121429/bernie-sanders-files-to-run-as-a-democrat-and-an-independent

 

 

 

Did you think i wouldn't read the whole article?  :ols:

 

Quote

But with Sanders, it creates the odd situation of having a high-profile presidential candidate file to run for two different offices with different parties, just as the Democratic Party is adopting rules mandating presidential candidates take something of a loyalty pledge.

 

Sanders also filed as a Democrat in 2016 to be able to run in the Democratic presidential primary — and had already filed for his 2018 Senate campaign as an independent, a status he's held in Congress for many years. Sanders' ambiguous party loyalty was one reason the Democratic National Committee adopted rules for 2020 candidates to affirm that they are, in fact, a Democrat, and will run and serve as one.

 

Basically, everyone at the DNC knows that Bernie is not a Democrat, so they made him take a loyalty pledge.  They've never done that for anyone before Sanders.  Bernie signed it because it doesn't mean anything and won't have any impact.  If he were to win the nomination, he could renounce it then and the DNC would still have to support him because they'd have to support someone besides Trump.  

 

This isn't difficult stuff.  I think you are being intentionally obtuse.  

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4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

How about in parking lots?

 

https://www.armytimes.com/news/transition/2019/02/08/veterans-are-committing-suicide-in-va-parking-lots-report/

 

Another reason I laugh when people want government run healthcare.  

 

Kind of a bad argument considering Medicare is really popular and well received:

 

Quote

In addition to thinking Medicare is important, a majority of Americans (including about eight in ten older adults) think it works well (Kaiser Family Foundation, 2012). This sense that Medicare is working well is borne out in surveys examining the experiences of people enrolled in the program. Compared with adults younger than age 65 with private health insurance, older adults enrolled in Medicare are more likely to rate their health insurance as “excellent,” and more likely to say they are very satisfied with their insurance deductibles, co-pays, and choice of providers (Kaiser Family Foundation, 2014b). Older adults with Medicare also are less likely to report having experienced problems paying medical bills in the past year compared to younger adults with private insurance (14 percent versus 22 percent) (Kaiser Family Foundation, 2013a). Notably, however, a 2008 survey found that among people on Medicare, beneficiaries younger than age 65 with disabilities were much more likely than older adults to report problems with coverage and access (Cubanski and Neuman, 2010).

 

https://www.asaging.org/blog/medicare-reflected-public-opinion

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11 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Folks seem to like Medicare...🤷‍♂️

 

Old and senile mainly

 

add

 even no excuses link supports that

Quote


Notably, however, a 2008 survey found that among people on Medicare, beneficiaries younger than age 65 with disabilities were much more likely than older adults to report problems with coverage and access (Cubanski and Neuman, 2010).

 

 

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6 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Did you think i wouldn't read the whole article?  :ols:

 

 

Basically, everyone at the DNC knows that Bernie is not a Democrat, so they made him take a loyalty pledge.  They've never done that for anyone before Sanders.  Bernie signed it because it doesn't mean anything and won't have any impact.  If he were to win the nomination, he could renounce it then and the DNC would still have to support him because they'd have to support someone besides Trump.  

 

This isn't difficult stuff.  I think you are being intentionally obtuse.  

 

I assumed you would.  The point is if Bernie really isn't a Democrat, then why is the DNC even playing this game?  I'd imagine because the amount of supporters he has.  They made him affirm in writing he is a Democrat.  And they accepted it.  Sounds like a Democrat to me.

 

6 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Kind of a bad argument considering Medicare is really popular and well received:

 

We'll see what happens when they add 283 million more customers.

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1 minute ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I assumed you would.  The point is if Bernie really isn't a Democrat, then why is the DNC even playing this game?  I'd imagine because the amount of supporters he has.  They made him affirm in writing he is a Democrat.  And they accepted it.  Sounds like a Democrat to me.

 

 

We'll see what happens when they add 283 million more customers.

 

Just want to point out that twa has affirmed in writing in the past that he is NOT a Republican.

 

Turns out...that was not true.

 

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31 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Everybody essentially believes that access health care is a right and are laws reflect that.  We don't just let people die on the street and nobody is really for letting people die on the street.

 

If society didn't believe that access to health care wasn't really a right, we wouldn't require hospitals to provide emergency care the way we do.

 

Like all rights though, it has limits (you can't yell fire in a crowded theater).  The health care debate isn't really about whether access to health care is a debate.  It is really an argument over the limits on that right.

 

I get that.

 

But is a 15/20$ minimum wage a 'right to a living wage'?

 

The left loves to declare something a right to make it something everyone must have, then call people names if they disagree (because we must hate <insert class/race of people> because there's no other reason someone might not agree that something is a right and therefor must be done immediately.)

 

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