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Presidential Election :11/3/2020- Fireside Chatter DJT vs Superplanner Lizzie & some other Dems

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9 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 there is no initial allotment of jobs. and when those go away... boom.. no more jobs! 
 

Back in the day.. basically EVERYBODY had to be involved in directly making food and shelter ... all ... of... the ...time....    then slowly we got better at it, and as a direct result a whole ****-load of agricultural jobs were eliminated.................. and everyone cheered, because those jobless out-of-work losers were freed up to invent the internet and porn.   

 

 

if there is such a gigantic technical leap in the next 15 years that we can produce the same output with 66% of the labor...that is a GOOD thing.   That means that 33% of this precious resource is freed up to produce OTHER things.   

 

 

Most of them really aren't cut out for porn.  Just sayin.  

 

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9 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

 if there is such a gigantic technical leap in the next 15 years that we can produce the same output with 66% of the labor...that is a GOOD thing.   That means that 33% of this precious resource is freed up to produce OTHER things.   

 

I think that is a fair point, the idea that when "these jobs ends, these other jobs get created" but I also think that might end up being a generational change with the right investment into education in the proper places going forward. You can prepare the younger generations for the "new economy"  I think the bigger issue is for those, say, in their 30's/40's/50's etc etc.....who have no education beyond high school, have been in a single industry their entire working career.  I think the notion that they are just going to suddenly change industries in that stage in their lives and become not only proficient but masters of the other skills to where they are getting jobs paying equal or more than the industry they previously worked in for 20+ years?  Not so sure.   That could also be where UBI helps, that $1000 a month could go towards some kind of schooling or trade that previously would not have had the money to invest in.

 

Also, I think one point was that such a large portion of the country is employed by either the Trucking industry, clerical/admins, retail/services.  It's not as if everyone is out there creating businesses so they can just shift to creating a different business.  Part of the issue is how fast automation takes hold of entire industries as opposed to just a handful of companies.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting Automation is a bad thing on a macro level.  Of course it is a great thing that more can be produced from less.  The problem is that those who benefit from the automation will be fewer.  It will be more resources going to the same percentage of folks now who own the huge companies that are already keeping wages stagnant in the first place.    It is also why GDP is a poor way to calculate a good economy when in the present and future, if GDP is being driven by technology/robots/automation, and not by actual people, it means the revenue created will be further consolidated to the top.  

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2 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Yeah in the past I never considered an idea like UBI because the common thought was "if you lose your job, that's fine, there are plenty others out there"  even when the economy has been in a downward spiral, I personally have seemed to always have enough basic office/admin skills to land something temporarily until a better opportunity came along, but listening to Andrew Yang explain what is going to happen in the near future, and has sort of already started on a smaller scale, it sounds like eventually a lot of the jobs will go away en mass and it isn't going to happen slowly once it starts.  His breakdown of the majority of jobs Americans do now, I had no idea either. 

 

I also think there is a misconception that UBI is a job replacement.  It's not.  Hell even for those with an income, UBI could something as simple as not having to use half a paycheck for an emergency car repair. The UBI supplement takes care of that, it goes right back into the economy etc etc....

 

I am not going to claim I am now any kind of scholar on the topic of UBI, but it does make sense if we are truly entering a world where automation is going to severely change the jobs landscape.

 

The most interesting thing about UBI is that it is not a new concept at all, it's been proposed for centuries. In fact I was shocked to discover it was almost passed by Congress in the late 60's, but Democrats voted it down because they wanted the UBI # to be higher. This is not some kind of socialist scam, this is a solution to an issue that is already starting to emerge in society (truck drivers and manufacturing has already been affected by the advent of AI) 

 

Yang is someone who is a rarity in American politics. Someone who is not part of the establishment proposing ideas that are practical to fix American issues. My biggest fear is he will not be able to get traction, not enough people will know about him, and he won't be able to attend the debates (he needs to raise a certain threshold in order to attend). If I could, I would donate money to his campaign (I cannot due to federal contracting restriction that he lists on his site) 

Edited by ixcuincle

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7 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

I think that is a fair point, the idea that when "these jobs ends, these other jobs get created" but I also think that might end up being a generational change with the right investment into education in the proper places going forward. You can prepare the younger generations for the "new economy"  I think the bigger issue is for those, say, in their 30's/40's/50's etc etc.....who have no education beyond high school, have been in a single industry their entire working career.  I think the notion that they are just going to suddenly change industries in that stage in their lives and become not only proficient but masters of the other skills to where they are getting jobs paying equal or more than the industry they previously worked in for 20+ years?  Not so sure.   That could also be where UBI helps, that $1000 a month could go towards some kind of schooling or trade that previously would not have had the money to invest in.

 

Also, I think one point was that such a large portion of the country is employed by either the Trucking industry, clerical/admins, retail/services.  It's not as if everyone is out there creating businesses so they can just shift to creating a different business.  Part of the issue is how fast automation takes hold of entire industries as opposed to just a handful of companies.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting Automation is a bad thing on a macro level.  Of course it is a great thing that more can be produced from less.  The problem is that those who benefit from the automation will be fewer.  It will be more resources going to the same percentage of folks now who own the huge companies that are already keeping wages stagnant in the first place.    It is also why GDP is a poor way to calculate a good economy when in the present and future, if GDP is being driven by technology/robots/automation, and not by actual people, it means the revenue created will be further consolidated to the top.  

 

And again, basically that Joe Rogan Podcast is him listing off facts. 66% of Americans don't have  a college degree. Trucking and manufacturing are more popular than people think. The factories shutting down and outsourcing or turning to AI in the Midwest led to discontent which led to Trump winning those states. I'm also interested by his ideas about how truckers will react to losing their jobs. In one moment he says to Joe that truckers will just block the highway with their trucks. They may not take that lightly, leading to less marriage, more alcoholism, more domestic abuse. It's very scary the world he depicts. And it's a reality. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, ixcuincle said:

 

And again, basically that Joe Rogan Podcast is him listing off facts. 66% of Americans don't have  a college degree. Trucking and manufacturing are more popular than people think. The factories shutting down and outsourcing or turning to AI in the Midwest led to discontent which led to Trump winning those states. I'm also interested by his ideas about how truckers will react to losing their jobs. In one moment he says to Joe that truckers will just block the highway with their trucks. They may not take that lightly, leading to less marriage, more alcoholism, more domestic abuse. It's very scary the world he depicts. And it's a reality. 

 

 

 

Yeah, I will freely admit most of my knowledge on the subject of UBI comes from that episode of the JRE.  I hope the guy gets enough support to at least be a part of the debates for awhile.  UBI might be a ways off from being a mainstream idea, but at least including it in the overall discussion ASAP could be big.

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3 hours ago, AJ* said:

 

Whoever is debating Trump could just express what you said verbatim and come off looking better than giving quick and snappy replies. 

You can't really debate Trump on the issues because he doesn't have the mental capicity to even grasp the issues.

 

He will just use demogaugery.  UBI- A socialist plot.  Trump and the GOP are going to portray the Dems as evil socialists.  There's still enough people that will buy into that.

 

When the Dems are campaigning, they got to talk to voters one on one.   When you get into the actual debate with Trump, you won't be able to have a real discussion because Trump has no mental capicity, to actually debate you.  He has no capicity to discuss issues in the depth that need to be.

 

This country won't do a damn thing about automation until it reaches a crisis point.  Trump and the GOP will dismiss it, as fantasy.  Trump already doesn't buy into automation taking away everyone's jobs.  Until  people actually see it happening in real time; they won't do anything.

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UBI is not something any Dem candidate should be running on.  It's too out there (for now).  There are LOADS of bread and butter issues that are super popular with wide swaths of voters right now.  

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See that BS with Sanders is what I am talking about, "OMG he won't call him a dictator, he won't say he has to go" oh the horror.   Instead of asking aesthetic questions like that, maybe instead talk about the possibility of U.S. using military intervention in a foreign country's politics, if he is ok with that, and why Trump is ok with that when he campaigned on the idea of being non-interventionist until a country with a lot of oil entered the picture. 

 

 

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Has Trump talked about military intervention there aside from protecting US citizens?

 

Would Bernie not?

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“the United States has got to work with the international community to make sure that there is a free and fair election in Venezuela.”

 

What's wrong with that exactly? Free and fair elections sound like a good idea. We don't have those here in the United States so neither should Venezuela? 

 

 

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27 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

See that BS with Sanders is what I am talking about, "OMG he won't call him a dictator, he won't say he has to go" oh the horror.   Instead of asking aesthetic questions like that, maybe instead talk about the possibility of U.S. using military intervention in a foreign country's politics, if he is ok with that, and why Trump is ok with that when he campaigned on the idea of being non-interventionist until a country with a lot of oil entered the picture. 

 

 

 

Candidates need to be able to easily call a spade a spade. The guy is a de facto dictator. Why hesitate to say so? 

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I hate the “OMG he refuses to say X” stuff. It really should be okay to need more than a prescribed sentence to state your position. 

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24 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I hate the “OMG he refuses to say X” stuff. It really should be okay to need more than a prescribed sentence to state your position. 

 

Is the guy in Venezuela a dictator? That’s not really having much to do with a policy position.

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54 minutes ago, clietas said:

“the United States has got to work with the international community to make sure that there is a free and fair election in Venezuela.”

 

What's wrong with that exactly? Free and fair elections sound like a good idea. We don't have those here in the United States so neither should Venezuela? 

 

 

 

You did conveniently leave off the first part of his answer to the question as to is the guy a dictator.

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50 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Candidates need to be able to easily call a spade a spade. The guy is a de facto dictator. Why hesitate to say so? 

 

It's because the question is really being used as a method to go after the guy who "doesn't want to go take out a brutal dictator."  The first step is trying to get the candidate to describe something on the terms they want to, then once the term is used and established, then comes the "well sir, sir....you just called him a dictator, so how can you justify not....."     

 

There was a reason why during the days of the support for the Iraq War starting to wane, what was the one thing the GOP kept going back to CONSTANTLY to defend it,,...."we got rid of a ruthless dictator....ARE YOU SUGGESTING THEY ARE BETTER WITH A RUTHLESS DICTATOR"

 

It is just the first step in trying to justify military intervention.

 

Remember during the Obama presidency, "OMG he won't even use the term terrorist!?!?!?!??!"  meanwhile he was ordering drone strikes all over the place to kill suspected terrorists. 

Edited by NoCalMike
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21 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

Is the guy in Venezuela a dictator? That’s not really having much to do with a policy position.

 

It does though, because if you say he is, the obvious next question is “what will you do about it if elected?”  Then you are trapped. 

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Just now, NoCalMike said:

 

It's because the question is really being used as a method to go after the guy who "doesn't want to go take out a brutal dictator."  The first step is trying to get the candidate to describe something on the terms they want to, then once the term is used and established, then comes the "well sir, sir....you just called him a dictator, so how can you justify not....."     

 

There was a reason why during the days of the support for the Iraq War starting to wane, what was the one thing the GOP kept going back to CONSTANTLY to defend it,,...."we got rid of a ruthless dictator....ARE YOU SUGGESTING THEY ARE BETTER WITH A RUTHLESS DICTATOR"

 

It is just the first step in trying to justify military intervention.

 

Apples and oranges.

 

”I believe he has abused his power to the point of being a de facto dictator. I strongly support the diplomatic efforts to remove him from office.”

 

wow, that was tough to come up with.

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Just now, Hersh said:

 

Apples and oranges.

 

”I believe he has abused his power to the point of being a de facto dictator. I strongly support the diplomatic efforts to remove him from office.”

 

wow, that was tough to come up with.

 

Follow-up question:  if diplomatic efforts don’t work, will you commit to military intervention to oust him?

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1 minute ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

It does though, because if you say he is, the obvious next question is “what will you do about it if elected?”  Then you are trapped. 

 

No you aren’t. Other candidates have had no issues answer the question without supporting military force. 

 

I’ll ask again since you didn’t answer. Is the guy a dictator?

1 minute ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Follow-up question:  if diplomatic efforts don’t work, will you commit to military intervention to oust him?

 

“I won’t take options off the table but we are committed to a strong diplomatic effort with our allies.”

 

wow, this is getting super tough. Stop acting like neophytes. Y’all are way smarter than this when it comes to politics. 

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Me personally, I have no trouble calling him a dictator.  However I also don't have the media trying to corner me into a narrative.

 

And yes, I realize Bernie can give all the same vague answers every other candidate will give, but I thought that isn't what we want in a candidate? 

 

Wasn't one of Trump's favorable traits in 2016 going against the neo-con grain and saying he didn't want to be an interventionist?  Weird how that was favorable for Trump, but with Dem candidates it's right back to the "terrorist sympathizer" rhetoric.

 

When it comes to the big corporate interests behind war, especially in an oil rich country, don't for a second think that the media won't play their part in trying to get rid of candidates that don't want to take measures to get those resources.  

 

"Will you call him a Dictator?" is just the beginning. 

Edited by NoCalMike

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3 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

"Will you call him a Dictator?" is just the beginning. 

 

 

Aye, slippery slope and all dat.

 

Image result for buttered butts

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The left has a history of supporting leftist dictators or authoritarian regimes or those at odds with the US, the right has a history of supporting right-wing or US allied ones.  Venezuela in particular is a country people on the left have shied away from criticizing in the past.  Bernie was fairly strong against Maduro a few weeks back though I thought.  I think it’s partly a gotcha situation, but also fair to see how he would respond to someone like Maduro if he wins the presidency.  (Remember that Bernie has been fairly criticized for having a shallow or undeveloped foreign policy in the past election)

Edited by visionary

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