TSO Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 OK... so after some deliberation I decided to put this in The Stadium versus the ES Coverage Blog, hopefully we'll generate more discussion here on it. This is part 2 of what will likely be a 3 part series where we focus on the play of all Dlinemen throughout the preseason games, accounting for their impactful snaps along the way. Here's part 1 for those who missed it: So, first, just a quick reminder as to how I've approached this. The videos I took are essentially snaps that I thought either had a clear win or a clear loss by any single Dlineman or more. I judged wins/losses more (but not totally) off of the initial movement generated, or ground given up, from the player so as to keep it as basic as possible and avoid schematic context. The snaps that occurred where neither a win nor a loss necessarily occurred on the entire Line (player did nothing impactful either way) were omitted in this count. However, that only happened on a few occasions, the majority of snaps held some intrigue for us. At the end of this, I compiled the number of wins and losses for each player, and then I'll continue to do this through the next preseason game. This one will have 2 charts, one showing the stats for this particular game and one showing a total throughout the first two preseason games. Click on the videos to see the line of text detailing said wins/losses. This time around, I color coded wins/losses/neither to make it easier while viewing. Shall we begin? (Apologies for the small text size of the following charts, wanted it to fit properly in a mobile format, as well) Stats against Packers Player Wins Losses Snaps Accounted For* 63 Brandon Banks 2 4 6 69 AJ Francis 5 3 10 72 Anthony Lanier 4 4 13 73 Ondre Pipkins 1 2 6 78 Joey Mbu 6 4 11 90 Ziggy Hood 3 3 8 92 Stacy McGee 3 0 6 95 Jonathan Allen 4 2 7 97 Terrell McClain 4 2 8 98 Matt Ioannidis 7 2 9 99 Phil Taylor 3 0 4 Totals through both Preseason Games Player Wins Losses Snaps Accounted For* 63 Brandon Banks 3 5 8 69 AJ Francis 12 4 18 72 Anthony Lanier 12 5 24 73 Ondre Pipkins 2 3 8 78 Joey Mbu 6 12 22 90 Ziggy Hood 3 6 14 92 Stacy McGee 8 2 13 95 Jonathan Allen 6 2 12 97 Terrell McClain 6 2 10 98 Matt Ioannidis 10 3 13 99 Phil Taylor 8 0 9 *Total snaps accounted for is just a tally of snaps where a win/loss occurred on the Dline, and not a total snap count. That being said, the number somewhat reflects total snap counts since the majority of snaps had a win/loss occur. So what did I learn this time around? Let's go down the list. -Brandon Banks, similar to last week, didn't play many snaps, only coming in towards the end of the game (along with Pipkins). So his competition was weak, as well. 2 wins, 4 losses. Not a very good game, and you can see why he's on the bottom of the depth chart for now. So far he's been the same guy throughout both games; a developmental prospect who has quite a ways to go. -AJ Francis didn't have as good a game as he had last week when he tallied 7 wins to only 1 loss. Again, he mostly played against second-stringers and tallied 5 wins to 3 losses out of the 10 snaps accounted for. Interestingly, when he first came into the game he was at his usual NT spot. Later on when he got some more snaps they had him playing in the nickel a bunch of times. He had his best series where most of his wins came doing that early in the 4th quarter. So far he's been one of the better players on the Dline throughout the preseason tallying 12 wins to 4 losses, though he hasn't played against first-stringers at all. -Anthony Lanier didn't have nearly as good a game as he did last week when he tallied 8 wins and only 1 loss. He played mostly against second-stringers and finished with 4 wins to 4 losses. That was on 13 snaps accounted for, so he had quite amount where he wasn't positively or negatively impactful either way. He was off the field for some time, but then came back in towards the end of the game, interestingly enough. Seemed to not be into it, though, and most of his inconsequential snaps were at that point. Like Francis, Lanier has been one of the better players on the line, and has shown his increased strength, as well. He remains inconsistent to a degree, but he's an improved player overall. Mostly has played against second-stringers, though. -Ondre Pipkins, similar to the game before, came into the game late with Banks and didn't have many snaps overall. He didn't do too well, finishing with 1 win and 2 losses on 6 snaps accounted for. So far he's flashed some potential as a Nose, but it's easy to see why he's at the bottom of the depth chart. Has a long way to go. - Joey Mbu came back with a vengeance and totally outperformed what he did last week, when he ended up with 8 losses and 0 wins. Played mostly against second and third stringers, but had some of the nicer wins of the night. He finished with 6 wins and 4 losses, so it wasn't some wonderful game or anything... but, still, much better than last week. So far, he's shown himself to be an intriguing prospect in that he's proven he can step up his game after a bad performance. He's got some good athleticism for a Nose Tackle, had a sick spin move on a pass rush, but also has the propensity to get pushed off the LOS. - Ziggy Hood improved a little bit on his game last week, where he tallied 3 losses to 0 wins. He started the game alongside McGee and McClain, playing mostly against the first team of the Packers. He finished with 3 wins and 3 losses on 8 snaps accounted for. So far, I view him as the weakest link on the line when it comes to the starters or heavy rotation guys. His totals are 3 wins to 6 losses on 14 snaps accounted for. It's just not promising. The biggest frustration is that he'll be the only guy getting pushed back on the entire Dline in too many instances. He remains the locker room leader on the line, so hopefully he can take another step this Sunday and show his value on the field. - Stacy McGee added another solid outing to the one he had last week when he won 5 snaps and lost on 2. As mentioned above, he started alongside Hood and McClain. Similar to last week, his wins weren't necessarily big time ones, but he was a net positive overall. So far McGee seems like a solid starter. He might not be an impact guy, but he doesn't get moved easily and can get up the field pretty quickly for a man his size. He's got a good feel for pass rushing, as well, and can disengage in multiple ways. - Jonathan Allen had a good game, maybe even better than last week where he finished with 2 wins and 0 losses, with quite a few inconsequential snaps. This time, he finished with 4 wins and 2 losses, but he played a good amount against the first team since he and Ioannidis immediately came in as the nickel linemen. I mentioned last game that shows great awareness for a rookie. This time his best play arguably came when he sniffed out a screen, ran the RB down, and made the tackle. He's got 6 wins to 2 losses so far, but a bunch of inconsequential snaps. He's absolutely flashed his talent, and there's no doubt he can be an absolute monster, but he still has a ways to go in order to reach his great potential. Hopefully it all clicks fast, and I wouldn't bet against just that. - Terrell McClain added another solid outing to the one last week, where he tallied 2 wins to 0 losses. However, unlike last week, he started this game and played mostly against the first team of the Packers, finishing with 4 wins and 2 losses. So far, I'm not as down on McClain as many seem to be. He's definitely not flashing stud potential or anything, but he's also not a liability out there. He seems to be finding his way and is hesitant in what he's doing, but he's a strong guy and doesn't get moved easily. I think as time goes on we'll see a better player. - Matt Ioaniddis had another good outing, probably even better than last week's where he finished with 3 wins and 1. He got a significant amount of reps against the first team, this time in the nickel with Allen mostly, and finished with 7 wins and 2 losses. Ioannidis has looked like one of the best players on the line this preseason. He's consistently beating his man, shedding his blocker, and has shown great power in whatever he does. I'm surprised at just how effective he's been at pass rushing. He's got a total of 10 wins to only 3 losses thus far. Impressive. - Finally, Phil Taylor came in with another excellent performance. Unlike last week, when he tallied 5 wins to 0 losses against the first team Ravens, he mostly played against the second team of the Packers and finished with 3 wins and 0 losses. Thus far, he has not only proven to be a good Nose Tackle, he has been the best Dlineman on the field! Granted, it's only been two preseason games and things can change fast, that's pretty exciting to think about considering our woes at the position. Guy simply hasn't lost, and has had a positive impact on nearly every snap he's been in on. And he's not just this run-stopping, plodding Nose Tackle. He's extremely athletic and can rush the passer as good as anyone else on the line so far this preseason. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Alright, so a quick summary of what I'm sensing thus far this preseason. Ioannidis and Taylor are head and shoulders above everyone else. Allen is flashing what he can be, but he's showing he's a rookie, too. McGee seems like a solid, not spectacular, starter. McClain can be a good piece, but he's inconsistent and doesn't seem comfortable too often. He's also looked slow at times, but he's definitely strong, so his athleticism is a mixed bag. Lanier is a bit too up and down since he followed up his great game against the Ravens with an inconsistent one against the Packers, but he's definitely flashing his abilities. Hood has, unfortunately, been a liability. Mbu is a bit of a quandary because he was absolutely terrible against the Ravens, but initially showed up well against the Packers, before tailing off a little bit again. Francis has done well, and is an intriguing young prospect at the Nose position. Finally, both Pipkins and Banks are nothing more than developmental prospects and have a long ways to go, though I think Pipkins has flashed more. Alrighty, guys and gals... hope you enjoyed. I, for one, can't wait to see what happens next in the culmination of this series! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaper Skins Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 This was awesome, great job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan834 Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 As a Temple alum, where Ioannidis played college ball, it is great to see him break out this preseason. I always thought the coaching staff was trying to miscast him last year when trying to place him in at NT. He is more athletic than he appears and I always thought he'd be great in a disruptive 3-4 DE role. Here's to hoping him and Allen can lock down those two spots for the foreseeable future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 I will say it again, I think Phil Taylor is the big story in camp. @thesubmittedone Excellent work. I could watch this stuff all day. I may just do that. I really appreciate the text overlay telling what is happening, as it sums up nicely what to watch for, helps us fans learn the proper terminology and also teaches us what to watch for on game day. Damn did you see Allen get washed has all new meaning. Since we have a full week between games, I think posts like yours could find a nice home in mod created post game threads, since the previous game is largely what is discussed until the next game. Mod created thread = instant credibility. Obviously its a ton of work you are doing if you plan to continue, so if its too much work, may I suggest to focus on the most important plays of the game - the ones generating the most discussion, or the opening drives, final back breaking drive, game changers, scoring plays etc. It all starts in the trenches, but intense focus on other area's of the field will be appreciated as well, but I am sure requires all 22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Kev Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Great breakdown, really appreciate the work you've put in. I like to watch the lines myself, but sometimes lack the technical knowledge to notice all of the subtleties. Will be re-watching these a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted August 24, 2017 Author Share Posted August 24, 2017 6 hours ago, RandyHolt said: Obviously its a ton of work you are doing if you plan to continue, so if its too much work, may I suggest to focus on the most important plays of the game - the ones generating the most discussion, or the opening drives, final back breaking drive, game changers, scoring plays etc. It all starts in the trenches, but intense focus on other area's of the field will be appreciated as well, but I am sure requires all 22. Appreciate the kind words. Yeah, no way I'd think of taking most of or all of the snaps of a positional group after every game during the regular season. This was just a preseason thing since so many of us were discussing the Dline all offseason. That being said, I might do more of this during the regular season (but, as you said, with the more important plays) depending on the results of this here. We'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted August 24, 2017 Share Posted August 24, 2017 Really seems like overall, there is noticeable improvement on the D line, especially against the run through 2 games. There was one run where T West broke out but that was close as well. Will have a test this weekend with Cincy's backfield, Mixon and co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poman Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Fantastic work TSO. Appreciate the work put in. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 So, what do you all think? Any differences in how I saw things myself? Don't be shy now, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poman Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 @thesubmittedone Do you happen to know whether we are running 1 gap or 2 gap? Mixture? I couldn't watch the game. Was there many blitzes? I thought your analysis was pretty spot on. I guess I'm wondering if it seemed like they game planned at all, or just told everyone to go beat their guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 13 hours ago, Poman said: @thesubmittedone Do you happen to know whether we are running 1 gap or 2 gap? Mixture? I couldn't watch the game. Was there many blitzes? I thought your analysis was pretty spot on. I guess I'm wondering if it seemed like they game planned at all, or just told everyone to go beat their guy. If I had to pick one, I'd say its 2-Gap... but it certainly seems like it's a mixture. I asked that specific question to Lanier after the Packers' game, after I asked him how it compares to Barry's D. He gave me a pretty interesting answer. He said: Quote As far as that is we always say that we have our gap but we always have the next gap over so... if we have an opening space we're not holding the gap anymore we're smashing it. So you'd think that'd mean it's a 2 gap as opposed to Barry's 1 gap scheme right? But then I responded with, "so last year you were more holding the [same] gap versus more hitting it"... he was confused by my question at first and then answered, "yeah, last year was more of a 2 gapping scheme". I think I stumped him with the way I worded it. It's my fault, I should've been clearer. The way I interpreted it, though, is that Manusky/Tomsula has them technically playing 2 gaps, but it's not a "read and react" style of play that most associate that with... it's more each player has their gap and the next one over dependent on the play call/where they line up, but once the play starts if either of their gaps open up they're supposed to attack upfield immediately versus maintaining their positions and waiting for the back to make a decision. I might be wrong about this, but I believe it means they've got more freedom to sort of "crash" when the opportunity presents itself. So, if I'm thinking of this correctly, it's initially a 2 gap scheme but can turn into a 1 gap scheme at the snap of the ball. They don't have to occupy/stand up blockers while reading the backfield throughout the play like most 2 gap schemes. It's interesting stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poman Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 37 minutes ago, thesubmittedone said: I asked that specific question to Lanier after the Packers' game, after I asked him how it compares to Barry's D. He gave me a pretty interesting answer. He said: Very cool and awesome that you thought to ask that. It definitely is interesting. That's one of the things that makes ES great. There really is a lot of good football knowledge here. Great job adding to that. Are you planning on doing this for any other position groups? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Poman said: Very cool and awesome that you thought to ask that. It definitely is interesting. That's one of the things that makes ES great. There really is a lot of good football knowledge here. Great job adding to that. Are you planning on doing this for any other position groups? Thanks, brother. I'd love to, but it's pretty time-consuming. I already get enough looks from my wife. I'm just particularly obsessed with the trenches, and I honestly believe the Dline last season was the biggest reason the team missed the playoffs, so I wanted to hone in on it this preseason for ES, particularly during the games I'm covering in the press box since I have access to the players afterwards. Like I told @RandyHolt, we'll see during the season. I do have NFL Game Pass so I can get the All-22 tape, which would allow me to really focus on the secondary and WRs. During the preseason I can really only hone in on the trenches since they don't give us that tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LetThePointsSoar Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 TSO, this is amazing, thanks for this work!! Pretty cool to see Taylor get off to a good start. Let's hope he can keep it up and have his career revive here in DC. Been a position of need forever, and is so critical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyHolt Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 15 hours ago, thesubmittedone said: So, what do you all think? Any differences in how I saw things myself? Don't be shy now, lol. We are gun shy. That is a lot to digest. Plus, who dares to tell a mod they are wrong, well besides that rgthingie guy I saw a few petty things I could nitpick (one was an Allen win that I thought was a stalemate) but then realized I didn't know what a victory even was. In a 3-4, an end in stalemate could or should be counted as a victory. But then that same play vs a 4 man front, is that then a loss? Thanks for asking about the gap. Great freaking question. It would take 1000 ES minds 16 games and we would still be arguing 1 or 2. It sure sounds like a hybrid - lets call it 1.5ing, passive to start, aggressive to finish; the backers will simply adjust as needed based on which gap the DL shoots. Us that appreciate your work the most will certainly understand if you cease operations if it does not spur enough discussion. I am really interested on what we are doing on the backend. You hear about teams like Seattle always play cover 3 or whatever it is. We don't even know what we do most here, in part because we cannot see via TV. Maybe I will fire an email to Fox and have them PIP on the QB side of our screens a view of what the QB sees / aerial view of all the DBs, maybe just on passing downs. A GoPro on Cousins crown. My wife would block ES on our router if she knew how. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 4 hours ago, RandyHolt said: I saw a few petty things I could nitpick (one was an Allen win that I thought was a stalemate) but then realized I didn't know what a victory even was. In a 3-4, an end in stalemate could or should be counted as a victory. But then that same play vs a 4 man front vs a run, is that then a loss? Oh yeah, it's very subjective. Doing this I kept thinking about PFF and how they arrive to their conclusions... it's impossible to be 100% scientific with this. That's why I tried to follow a very basic criteria in how wins/losses were accounted for that removed much of the schematic context from it, but it wasn't always easy to follow. And clearly that "who dares tell a mod they're wrong" thing doesn't apply to me. I always get told. Anyway, again, thanks for the kind words. I'll see if I can get another player on the Dline to interview and I'll ask about 1 Gap/2 Gap. It's interesting to hear different responses from players to the same question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
London Kev Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Not sure if it's a typo or I'm just reading it wrong. You have big Phil at 8-0 but said he was 5-5 and 3-0 over two games, surely that's 8-5? I loved the article but thought you would want it right, (unless of course I got it wrong). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TSO Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 2 hours ago, London Kev said: Not sure if it's a typo or I'm just reading it wrong. You have big Phil at 8-0 but said he was 5-5 and 3-0 over two games, surely that's 8-5? I loved the article but thought you would want it right, (unless of course I got it wrong). Oh shoot, you're totally right, I messed up! Fixed now. Yeah, he didn't have any losses from what I could tell in both games. Dude is playing lights out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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