No Excuses

Nationwide Removal of Confederate Statues

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Tearing down statues is great and all but if it isn't followed up with legitimate legislation its all a waste of time and energy.

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1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:


 

It’s really obnoxious.

 

 

it was 50 years ago for me and many others when we talked about it then

 

you always have people who are concerned about comparatively peripheral matters that are less important than the focus on the big picture...it's human....and those peripheral matters get enough "air time" to dilute, pollute, misdirect, confuse, minimize, distract, etc from keeping the eyes on the prize

 

yet you "have" to have those conversation because it's human and much of the content in them is important and does matter to most of us on some level as they involve our constructs of integrity and rational thinking and "principles"

 

we all know there are many reasons change at scales from small to large can be so hard for individuals and collections of individuals as a group, but it does happen and it's often horribly messy and inexact and includes participation of "wonderful" people and "awful" people often working on the same side

 

most of the "great people" we represent as such in history are quite flawed, and statuary, outside of its artistic value, is pretty much primitive idolatry to me and just as individual humans have this dominant thing we call ego or self-identity (our capacity for abstract thinking, mainly, which is generally "undisciplined" and is easily "dominated" by emotional input) we show it in group form, too.

 

humans really like to celebrate themselves individually and really  like to celebrate their chosen groups...it's existence-affirming and self-supportive at a fundamental level and, to use a phrase, we are still very deep in "general primate" stuff, species-wise, developmentally imv

 

i think it's best to make the "honoring" or "celebrating" of such figures as more attached to the relevant specific words and deeds cited and not thinking of it as "the whole of the person"

 

when it comes to "rating" the actual person i prefer the idea of according special recognition for their historical significance (impact), including kudos and criticism in even-handed manner

 

i was very politically active as a teen since the 60's, and with developed intention even then, have never identified as a republican or democrat...and i still don't...it seems much of the fight (issues/opposing forces) today is the same as then...yet those times did make a difference and that fighting, and even dying, did too and i think these times will be similar in terms of making a difference...hopefully even moreso

 

 

keep your eyes on the prize and teach your children well

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, justice98 said:

 

That statue is awful and indefensible really.  I'd love to hear from somebody why that depiction in that specific statue should be up.  

 

That statue thing, in general, is kinda dumb.  The prevalence of, in a general sense.  Why are we so obsessed with making statues of people?  

 

Many of us remember when the first designs of the Vietnam War Memorial was unveiled it was brutally attacked as disrespectful and yes even racist since it was designed by an Asian woman (Maya Lin) who used Japanese and Native America art influences to design the monument. Some neanderthal people did not want an Asian's name on a monument about the Vietnam War. And yes, statues like the Roosevelt status and others like it were held up as "that is what a monument should be!". 

 

Fortunately, calmer heads prevailed and we got the Vietnam War memorial as it stands now. It is one of the most powerful monuments I have ever seen. She started a whole new approach to monuments. But if I remember correctly, it was very close to NOT happening. 

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Heavily Armed Fans Guard Statue Of Yogi Bear

In Case It Turns Out He Supported Confederacy

 

 

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SIOUX FALLS, SD—Wielding assault rifles and chanting “smarter than the average bear” as they gathered around the cartoon character, heavily armed fans reportedly guarded a statue of Yogi Bear Wednesday on the off chance that he turned out to have supported the confederacy. “We will lay down our lives to protect this monument to Jellystone’s finest bear, whether or not he happened to be a defender of Southern slave states,” said Phil Markey, 43, echoing dozens of other protesters who pledged to march day and night in case activists discovered Yogi Bear did, in fact, support the Confederacy and attempted to deface or destroy his statue, arguing that the social justice warriors ignored the cartoon bear’s kindness to Boo-Boo Bear and well-known contributions to stealing “pic-a-nic baskets.”

 

https://www.theonion.com/heavily-armed-fans-guard-statue-of-yogi-bear-in-case-it-1844070096

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I never understood the idea that taking down monuments was "erasing history."  No one is saying the people that were turned into monuments should not be discussed in a historical context and/or erased from actual history books, however that is a lot different than creating monuments in their name and likeness as some kind of idol or hero. 

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21 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I never understood the idea that taking down monuments was "erasing history."  

 

because it's a lie and an easy lie to spread around.

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2 hours ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

Fortunately, calmer heads prevailed and we got the Vietnam War memorial as it stands now. It is one of the most powerful monuments I have ever seen. She started a whole new approach to monuments. But if I remember correctly, it was very close to NOT happening. 

 

I love the Vietnam War Memorial Wall, it does remind me of smaller communities that erect small flat monuments with the community war dead's names carved into it. The Vietnam War Memorial Wall is a bigger version of this type of memorial, I like the black granite as much more somber. I've visited often when I lived in Alexandria and Maryland. It really leaves an impression.

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Posted (edited)

Something to keep in mind with the statues being gone after is that some of it is due to ties to the Confederacy or being celebrated primarily for racism for fighting for racist causes, and some of it is due to involvement in mass killing of Native Americans (Columbus, Jackson, Grant (I think the slavery argument for taking him down is debatable).  And some of it is more confusing, like tagging the church or taking down Cervantes.

Edited by visionary
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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

I never understood the idea that taking down monuments was "erasing history."  No one is saying the people that were turned into monuments should not be discussed in a historical context and/or erased from actual history books, however that is a lot different than creating monuments in their name and likeness as some kind of idol or hero. 

 

The US Education system has done a bang up job of erasing history. I've talked to a lot of grade school kids in the 14 years I've been out of HS, and it shocks me how litt6 they know,  virtually about anything history related (and they're smart kids).

 

Removal of a statue pales in comparison to that

Edited by Mr. Sinister
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What Will Happen to Stone Mountain, America’s Largest Confederate Memorial?

 

Baltimore uprooted General Lee under the cover of night. New Orleans removed its four Confederate statues to mixed reactions—some voicing relief, others, disapproval. And with the violence that followed the events in Charlottesville, when white nationalists  killed one counter-protestor and injured 19 more, the question of how America deals with its history of racism has continued to grow in urgency.

 

But what’s a state to do when the monument in question is carved 42 feet deep and 400 feet above ground into a granite mountain, with figures of General Lee, General Thomas “Stonewall” Jackson and President of the Confederacy Jefferson Davis larger than the presidential visages of Mount Rushmore?

 

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“We must never celebrate those who defended slavery and tried to destroy the Union… the visible image of Stone Mountain’s edifice remains a blight on our state and should be removed,” said Stacy Abrams, a Democratic candidate for Georgia governor, on Twitter in the days after the Charlottesville violence. And while Abrams is far from the only voice to call for the memorial’s removal, her call has been met by many Georgians who want the memorial to remain untouched.

 

With arguments raging across the country about the validity of Confederate monuments and whether they offer valuable history lessons or simply perpetuate the inaccurate “Lost Cause” mythology, Stone Mountain Confederate Memorial offers an example of the dark past of some monuments—and shows how hard their removal may be.

 

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Members of the Ku Klux Klan burn a cross on top of Stone Mountain while initiating 700 new members in July 1948. The mountain was also the site of the group's second resurgence. (AP Photo)
 

Click on the link for the full article

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as potus, i would call an air strike on stone mountain

 

 

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Just replace the statues,monuments with Obama statues and monuments. That would trigger so many people.

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1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

as potus, i would call an air strike on stone mountain

 

 

 

It's such a pretty mountain, too (sans Confederate imagery). Damn shame

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1 hour ago, Rdskns2000 said:

Just replace the statues,monuments with Obama statues and monuments. That would trigger so many people.

Ok you gotta give credit where credit is due some Trumpkin came up with this previously with Trump as the statues.  Really a reflection that they are more interested in sticking fingers in eyes (triggering) than anything else (it is not unique to them unfortunately).

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1 hour ago, Jumbo said:

as potus, i would call an air strike on stone mountain

 

 


Got your guy right here!

 

 

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16 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

The US Education system has done a bang up job of erasing history. I've talked to a lot of grade school kids in the 14 years I've been out of HS, and it shocks me how litt6 they know,  virtually about anything history related (and they're smart kids).

 

Removal of a statue pales in comparison to that

 

We dont demand schools teach history properly and accurately.  That's kind on us as citizens.  If they're doing it poorly, and we know they're doing it poorly, we owe it to our children to make them do it right.   There's all this emphasis on math and science, nobody gives a crap about history.  I kinda wonder how much emphasis would be on history if the career paths and job prospects for history were more robust.  

 

But let's see how much pressure comes to bear on the authors, publishers, and school systems to create or utilize curricula and textbooks that teach history accurately.  

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1 minute ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

It's such a pretty mountain, too (sans Confederate imagery). Damn shame

  

 

good point...ok...better idea...we'll have the army corps of engineers remake it into mlk, malcolm x  and shirley chisum

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