Nationwide Removal of Confederate Statues

[The Evil Genius]

10 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Gonna stop here. Let's get one thing straight. There were no "Good" slave owners. .

 

I'm not sure tshile was saying that sin, but totally agree. Somewhere somehow we will either need to stop erecting these monuments (in totality) or figure out where to draw the line of when someone's good deeds cancel out or exceed their bad ones. 

 

I'm of the opinion that these monuments aren't needed anymore. Ever. Let's stick to honoring groups of people (like veterans of a war or tragedy).

Edited June 19, 2020 by The Evil Genius

[tshile]

11 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Gonna stop here. Let's get one thing straight. There were no "Good" slave owners. People were kidnapped, stored like cattle, ripped away from their families, and "purchased," and made to work themselves to death in the best of conditions

 

"Good" people would have  helped them escape (and good people did exactly that). "Educating" them and freeing them later is not a good thing. Convenient thing, perhaps. Owning another human is not a good thing. Not now. Not ever.

no arguments. I think I was trying to be nice to the point being made. Should have put good in quotes. Thanks for the correction

 

[Mr. Sinister]

Just now, The Evil Genius said:

 

I'm not sure tshile was saying that sin

 

I know. Point is, that none of it was good, despite the intentions among the least cruel of them.

Just now, tshile said:

no arguments. I think I was trying to be nice to the point being made. Should have put good in quotes. Thanks for the correction

 

 

Sure. You deserve credit for coming pretty damn far than most people probably could. 👊

[Hazel-Ra]

1 hour ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Gonna stop here. Let's get one thing straight. There were no "Good" slave owners. People were kidnapped, stored like cattle, ripped away from their families, and "purchased," and made to work themselves to death in the best of conditions

 

"Good" people would have  helped them escape (and good people did exactly that). "Educating" them and freeing them later is not a good thing. Convenient thing, perhaps. Owning another human is not a good thing. Not now. Not ever.

 

Hi, I'm late to the discussion as usual... so if this has been addresses please point me to approximate page. So for now monument removal is accelerating for Confederate monuments, questionable sports mascots, and owners. Will it also reach back before the Civil War (Can't call it Antebellum anymore)  to where they remove the Washington and Jefferson Monuments and remove their respective names from cities, counties, schools, ect? As you said, they were slave owners.

 

[LadySkinsFan]

1 minute ago, hawgboy said:

 

Hi, I'm late to the discussion as usual... so if this has been addresses please point me to approximate page. So for now monument removal is accelerating for Confederate monuments, questionable sports mascots, and owners. Will it also reach back before the Civil War (Can't call it Antebellum anymore)  to where they remove the Washington and Jefferson Monuments and remove their respective names from cities, counties, schools, ect? As you said, they were slave owners.

 

 

Slavery used to be Constitutional, until the South lost the Civil War and Constitutional amendments were passed to abolish that wretched state of humanity.

 

I think anything named after anyone who fought for and/or supported the South should be changed, pulled down, or put in a museum of the Failed South. The South should be actively vilified as a loser opponent who's sole purpose was to keep slavery in place. It's inhumane. State's rights was code for slavery.

[Mr. Sinister]

13 minutes ago, hawgboy said:

 

Hi, I'm late to the discussion as usual... so if this has been addresses please point me to approximate page. So for now monument removal is accelerating for Confederate monuments, questionable sports mascots, and owners. Will it also reach back before the Civil War (Can't call it Antebellum anymore)  to where they remove the Washington and Jefferson Monuments and remove their respective names from cities, counties, schools, ect? As you said, they were slave owners.

 

 

Many powerful men have done some pretty awful things throughout history. Washington is no different, from that, to his treatment of the Indians.

 

But no, I don't believe for a second that anything with his name on it will change.

Edited June 19, 2020 by Mr. Sinister

[Hazel-Ra]

20 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

 

Slavery used to be Constitutional, until the South lost the Civil War and Constitutional amendments were passed to abolish that wretched state of humanity.

 

I think anything named after anyone who fought for and/or supported the South should be changed, pulled down, or put in a museum of the Failed South. The South should be actively vilified as a loser opponent who's sole purpose was to keep slavery in place. It's inhumane. State's rights was code for slavery.

 

Can't argue with you on any of that. I've been in such a strange place lately and ponder the fact that we are only 1/5th into the "new" century yet at 46 I'm likely at half or perhaps more of my life expectency. I find myself wondering how a 46 year old person in 1920 viewed the changes happening around them.

 

I've never had a dog in the fight over the whole Confederacy thing. I've lived in the West my whole life and have never even visited the South. As such, the idea of rocking the Stars n Bars has never been a thing for me though there are PLENTY of others in SW Idaho who seem to be into it and the majority of them have likely never been as well. SMH.

 

Just today my cousing posts some FB meme where the caption reads : "If they can fly theirs (pic of Pride Parade with Rainbow Flag) Why can't we fly ours?" (Pic of Stars n Bars)

For a response I simply typed "Because that flag's (rainbow) slaves can be released by a safe word." Maybe a little crass, but it's likely the only way he'd understand.

 

As you can see from my avatar, I see only one way we keep the name Redskins, but in all likelihood it's going to go away. I'm slowly coming to terms with that.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by hawgboy
More thoughts and formating

[tshile]

30 minutes ago, hawgboy said:

Will it also reach back before the Civil War (Can't call it Antebellum anymore)  to where they remove the Washington and Jefferson Monuments and remove their respective names from cities, counties, schools, ect? As you said, they were slave owners.

I’ll entertain that idea once we get rid of the tributes to the people that actively fought to break the country up over their desire to keep slavery. Tributes that were erected during civil rights movements for the sole purpose of scaring and intimidating black people. 
 

im not against it. Just think we have a ways to go before we reach that level of discussion. 
 

Didn’t used to think that. But damn if the hook Pharrell wrote for RTJ didn’t make me realize yeah, there’s something to that too

(warning: nsfw explicit song)

the truth is that we don’t need slave owners names and images everywhere to understand their vital roles on our history. We just don’t. 
 

there’s a lot of good, virtuous people we could pay tribute to instead. People that, in today’s context, don’t alienate a good portion of our neighbors from society; even if just implicitly. 

Edited June 19, 2020 by tshile

[visionary]

21 minutes ago, hawgboy said:

 

Can't argue with you on any of that. I've been in such a strange place lately and ponder the fact that we are only 1/5th into the "new" century yet at 46 I'm likely at half or perhaps more of my life expectency. I find myself wondering how a 46 year old person in 1920 viewed the changes happening around them.

 

I've never had a dog in the fight over the whole Confederacy thing. I've lived in the West my whole life and have never even visited the South. As such, the idea of rocking the Stars n Bars has never been a thing for me though there are PLENTY of others in SW Idaho who seem to be into it and the majority of them have likely never been as well. SMH.

 

Just today my cousing posts some FB meme where the caption reads : "If they can fly theirs (pic of Pride Parade with Rainbow Flag) Why can't we fly ours?" (Pic of Stars n Bars)

Wait...what does your cousin mean, 'ours'?  Why would that be their flag?

Edited June 19, 2020 by visionary

[Hazel-Ra]

11 minutes ago, visionary said:

Wait...what does he mean, 'ours'?

Like I said, he's never been to the South that I know of. But he does consider himself a proud "redneck" and I've definitely heard some less than progressive thoughts come out of his cakehole over the years... so prolly just what you think it means.

Edited June 19, 2020 by hawgboy

[nonniey]

3 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Gonna stop here. Let's get one thing straight. There were no "Good" slave owners. People were kidnapped, stored like cattle, ripped away from their families, and "purchased," and made to work themselves to death in the best of conditions

 

"Good" people would have  helped them escape (and good people did exactly that). "Educating" them and freeing them later is not a good thing. Convenient thing, perhaps. Owning another human is not a good thing. Not now. Not ever.

McDonogh was both opposed to slavery and the largest purchaser of slaves in the anti-bellum South (about 1200). His sole purpose for buying slaves was to acquire a fortune so he could educate them (which was illegal) free them and then repeat.  He didn't use the money on himself and when he died he left his fortune to establish schools for poor children of all races.   I guess he could have spent all his money on buying and freeing a handful of slaves at the beginning instead off the 1200 he did free over his lifetime.  You are quibbling over the tactics he used in opposing slavery. 

 

I would call him a good man - his statue should not have been torn down. (I'd say he was the Oskar Schindler of the anti-bellum south).

 

 

Edited June 19, 2020 by nonniey

[Mr. Sinister]

I'm good with "Quibbling"

[Jumbo]

funny, i'd say "quibbling" is one way to describe some of noinney's  posting appearances lately  

 

that and questionable prioritization (imv) seems to be a theme (i'm being judgy)
 

 

and perhaps----or so it appears---trying to keep the crazy libs a little tethered to earth, which if so means that's a role he sees as needed and is willing to serve...be grateful 

 

you lefties ought to listen-up better because keeping this resolute focus on this truly widespread, sustained, powerful, negative reaction to the centuries-long lack of will to fully address racism against blacks by the dominant white culture doesn't mean you shouldn't give this matter that's of great concern* to noinney the attention and recognition he thinks it deserves for the monumental   travesty it was and the ominous possible future it portends 

 

(*it's about the civil war times slave owner good-guy that's like the anti-nazi dude from the movie the close encounters guy made---not to mock great men, but to mock we internet posters--def me included)

 

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

Plot Twist - I was a registered Republican until 2008 

 

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

@tshile dropping RTJ jams in the Confederate statue thread is my highlight for 2020.

 

Tell your children the truth...

 

 

[The Sisko]

8 hours ago, hawgboy said:

 

Hi, I'm late to the discussion as usual... so if this has been addresses please point me to approximate page. So for now monument removal is accelerating for Confederate monuments, questionable sports mascots, and owners. Will it also reach back before the Civil War (Can't call it Antebellum anymore)  to where they remove the Washington and Jefferson Monuments and remove their respective names from cities, counties, schools, ect? As you said, they were slave owners.

 

Anything’s possible but I doubt it happens. The vast majority of the memorials to confederate traitors honor people who did little else of note in their lives aside from maybe being KKK big shots. The founding fathers memorials are honoring them for their role in founding the country. There’s certainly a conversation to be had about the absurdity of founding a “free” country while many of its inhabitants were enslaved, but there’s a clear difference. They’re not being memorialized because they owned slaves but, nowadays anyway, in spite of it.

If you want some background on how we got here after the civil war was supposed to have settled the issue, try reading How the South Won the Civil War.

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

[visionary]

 

OK, this is out of control.  Also, “kill whitey” wtf?  Follow the thread.  Oh and Cervantes came down as well as Grant.

 

 

 

NSFW:

https://twitter.com/jrivanob/status/1274190319806853120

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by visionary

[visionary]

 

[@DCGoldPants]

The Grant mini-series talked about this. I don't know how accurate. They said Grants parents were big time abolitionists. His wife's parents own slaves. Grants parents didn't attend their wedding. 

 

Grant himself was ridiculed for working side by side on his in-laws estate with Slaves before as @visionary shares, freed William Jones. I don't recall the fate of the other Man.

 

His time as President was barely covered. 30min out of a 3 night series. 

[Mr. S]

17 hours ago, hawgboy said:

 

Hi, I'm late to the discussion as usual... so if this has been addresses please point me to approximate page. So for now monument removal is accelerating for Confederate monuments, questionable sports mascots, and owners. Will it also reach back before the Civil War (Can't call it Antebellum anymore)  to where they remove the Washington and Jefferson Monuments and remove their respective names from cities, counties, schools, ect? As you said, they were slave owners.

 

 

I'm late myself on this.  People are actively trying to go after Thomas Jefferson already.  If Jefferson goes, so does George Washington and any other slave owner of the founding fathers group.  I don't think they will be held to a different standard to those who want change and are protesting.  Some will point out that the Confederates were traitors to the US, which is true.  However, could it be argued that the founding fathers were traitors to England who established the colonies?

 

I'm not sure how people will draw the line.  Personally, the confederate statues should go down and moved to the battlefields and numerous civil war museums.  Washington and Jefferson should remain.   Whether my opinion matters or not is a different question.  

[visionary]

 

 

[LD0506]

Ok, on  a personal level this is as much a measure of just how ****ing weird this year has gotten as anything...........but I'm gonna have to kinda selectively speak out for nonniey's postings.

 

<whew>

 

Lemme take a breath

 

There is a very real diversion/distraction in trying to judge 18th century figures by 2020/whatever day of the week it is standards. I am not and would not even suggest any support/defense/excuse for slavery, it is a fundamental evil, but turning every single person in history into today's meme or villain without any context or understanding makes us all dumber.

 

The statues themselves are a kind of shorthand trope for racism, so tear 'em down, I am good with that. But the what and why and when of them being erected is as important as people finally getting up the nerve to say enough of that **** and trashing them now. The same way that there was not a unified opinion on slavery during Washington's time, reducing everything to some twitteresque soundbite doesn't serve anyone well.

 

Some simplistic "There were no good people" attitude is a child of ignorance. No one benefits.

 

Let's finally admit and accept the actual history of this country, good and bad and uncomfortable and horrifying. We need to find a way to a common understanding of who and what we are, not a white version and a black version or a northern or southern or asian or latino or any and all of it, the integration we need is one of our history, where all of it becomes the one we build on to move forward. E pluribus unum

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/juneteenth-tulsa-massacre-what-isn-t-taught-classrooms-has-profound-n1231442

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by LD0506

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Very few things irritate me more than seeing someone try to speak with arrogant authority on a topic they know very little about. Especially when I know a ****load more about it than they do.

 

And yes, i just came from twitter lol...talking out of your ass should be the official language of that place.