Nationwide Removal of Confederate Statues

[Jumbo]

i think it'd be awesome to swap 'em out with famous/heroic/inspirational black people of the times...tell their stories..

 

 

someone i know does a seminar where audiences that often feature open-minded, well-educated, aware people find they had no idea of the great wealth of detailed history we have of the industry of racism and the institutionalization of racism across all american, well, institutions.....it's not some imagined liberal creation....just the history of the congressional record alone, over literally centuries, and the volume of virulent racist material, is staggering.....content from every section of every newspaper across the land....local writings and letters.....transcriptions of major corporation's board meetings,  colleges and universities reports, all levels of city and state government (transcribed meetings/events etc)...and on and on...example after example of pure racist bull**** decade after decade over a couple centuries of it.... and it's mind-boggling, even for those who felt "they know all that stuff"...also, when i was a kid, interracial marriage was illegal in this country

[SoulSkin]

1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

Richmond

 

The Richmond mayor reiterated his position on the statues remaining, but adding contextualization, just today. That's what the 'flaggers' rally, planned for Sept. 16th, was supposed to be in protest of (contextualization). The permit is currently under review by the GSC, and the flaggers group themselves are considering not having it so soon after the events of this past weekend. Their official view is that the statues here do not need contextualization, and they honor the war dead, which I find pretty weak. They are statues of individuals. I guess 'honoring the war dead' could be someone's interpretation. On the other hand, If one person or group can decide what the interpretation of a statue should be, other people and groups should have at least as much of a right to do so as well. They fear contextualization as a sort of gateway for people later having more solid ground to argue about the obvious racial reasons the statues are there to begin with, and their eventual removal.

 

I also agree that these decisions, and the path forward, should be up to the cities in which they exist. Some psychopath from Maumee Ohio, or a flagger from Crozet, VA should really not have reason to think that their opinion matters on the direction this city takes on the issue. I know the Lee Statue here is actually on a tiny little chunk of state property though, so state laws have to be taken into consideration. I think some of the others might be too. 

[PleaseBlitz]

11 minutes ago, Destino said:

 

 

*what are we calling it, protest seems like the wrong word.  Racist riot?  Nazi gathering?  I'm never going to call it Unite the Right.

 

Virgin revolt?

6 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

..also, when i was a kid, interracial marriage was illegal in this country

 

Good post.  Also, interracial marriage was a Virginia innovation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

 

 

[SkinssRvA]

Here's my thing: I don't really care.  If you want to take down statues of confederates, I'm going to be ok with it.  But you need to answer the "why" for me.  Are you actually upset about a statue?  Or is this your way of signaling to the world your superior morals? I'm a 30 something white guy, these statues dont bother me.  If it's difficult for others, let's help them feel comfortable. If it means tearing down some statues then that's a concession that I feel a reasonable person can make.  What are some of these statues doing there anyway?  Lots of them don't seem to make logical sense contextually.  

 

Same goes for people protecting the statues.  Why?  Are you trying to "protect free speech" or are you using that as a veil to hide racist motives?  When white supremacists show up I'm going to dock you very valuable points in the game of social correctness.  I guess I want a discussion to take place before we all show up in riot gear wielding weapons and running over each other in cars demanding things happen.  

 

what I really hope we don't lose is our landmarks.  Places where significant events in history took place.  The civil war is the deadliest war in American history by a long shot.  The death toll alone is remarkable and stands the test of time.  There's much to be learned from it even to this day.  I walk in Richmond every day and can find a new plaque telling me what happened here 150 years ago.  It's not good or bad, it's just statements of fact about the war.  The southern White House, the houses and churches that were used as hospitals, the buildings burned, yes even monument Avenue.  

 

[Warhead36]

The statues don't bother me, but I don't like what they stand for. They represent an awful time in our country's history, and those that wore that symbol at that time represented treason. Also, and this can't be emphasized enough, the Confederates LOST. I can't believe how much people are in love with the symbol of a loser. I'd rather run around wearing Cleveland Browns gear then the confederate logo.

 

In seriousness, the confederate symbol and all its statues and representations symbolize hate. Having statues/memorials of them only serve as a reminder of that hate and empower those who use it for that purpose.

[SkinssRvA]

8 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

 I can't believe how much people are in love with the symbol of a loser. I'd rather run around wearing Cleveland Browns gear then the confederate logo.

They will argue as they often do that it's a symbol of freedom.  states rights.  Yadda yadda.  which in a ****ized way, they actually are.  

 

If you want a real loser jersey I'll send you a Liverpool top.  Haven't won premier league title ever.  My friends over in soccer thread won't like that joke  

[BRAVEONTHEWARPATH93]

41 minutes ago, SkinssRvA said:

They will argue as they often do that it's a symbol of freedom.  states rights.  Yadda yadda.  which in a ****ized way, they actually are.  

 

If you want a real loser jersey I'll send you a Liverpool top.  Haven't won premier league title ever.  My friends over in soccer thread won't like that joke  

Something something *lost to Burnley* something 

 

 

Anyways this tweet is amazing 

 

 

[CRobi21]

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/national/full-speech-mitch-landrieu-addresses-removal-of-confederate-statues/2017/05/31/cbc3b3a2-4618-11e7-8de1-cec59a9bf4b1_video.html?utm_term=.b2bd9b1990a7

 

Full speech: Mitch Landrieu addresses removal of Confederate statues

 

On May 19, 2017, New Orleans Mayor Mitch Landrieu delivered a moving speech about why the city took down four Confederate monuments that had been installed by supporters of the "Cult of the Lost Cause."

[Gamebreaker]

2 hours ago, SkinssRvA said:

They will argue as they often do that it's a symbol of freedom.  states rights.  Yadda yadda.  which in a ****ized way, they actually are.  

 

If you want a real loser jersey I'll send you a Liverpool top.  Haven't won premier league title ever.  My friends over in soccer thread won't like that joke  

 

This, I just have to disagree with. The South didn't secede over states rights, they seceded over slavery. Idolizing men who fought and lost to keep a large portion of our population enslaved is repugnant. The statues should've never been erected, but considering how this country acted immediately after the civil war ended, that people thought it a good idea to create them isn't surprising at all. 

 

I have no problem with historical exhibits on the site of major historical events. I used to be a history major, and that kind of stuff I find important to teach the younger generations. It's the rest of the junk that has been added to it that needs to go. A statue of General Lee serves no purpose other than to give racists something to look up to. 

 

Now this is a bit off-topic, but it came to mind and I thought it a similar enough story to mention. I read an article a couple years back about a woman who worked as a tour guide at a historical plantation house. She had numerous stories of white people getting angry with her for telling the truth of what happened in that house on their tours. Some people tried to rationalize away the depravity of it all. I explicitly remember her mentioning one woman said to her,"Well, they treated them well. Weren't they happy with that?" I think her response back was,"Would you be?" In which she received no response. 

 

I bring that up because some people see movies like the 2016 version of Birth of a Nation, or 12 Years a Slave, and think it's just a Hollywood exaggeration of what really happened. It wasn't that bad. These are the same people who fight for "Southern Pride", and claim they aren't a racist. Who think removing a statue somehow diminishes them in some way. 

[ixcuincle]

History don't remember losers

 

Get that **** outta here, "southern pride" my ass 

Also Virginia was a heavy advocate of Confederation, remember the capitol was in Richmond and Lee was a Virginia. They still have Lee Highway (Rt 29) named after him. The Statues gotta go though but do you think there'd be enough traction to rename streets? I mean..."Jefferson Davis Highway." "Lee Highway". 

[zoony]

I love the South bashing threads from all you government leaching welfare state parasites who contribute nothing to society other than sucking the societal tax tit.

 

Also, DC is perhaps the most racist city in the United States.  Good thing you all arent a bunch of hypocritical assholes on that front.  This is almost as rich as douchebags from Boston preaching racial tolerance.  Almost.

 

As to the confederate monuments, i think they belong in museums, not city squares.  Have a nice day everyone!

[skinsmarydu]

I was a resident of the great Commonwealth of Virginia from ages 7-18.  From Sterling, Manassas, Lorton, Alexandria, and beyond... way beyond out into nowhere.

 

The Civil War was a secession for state's rights...slavery BECAME the issue, for those who are historically challenged.  VA sat on the edge.  It was, and still is, conflicted territory. 

[Bang]

I very much doubt all of them will be removed without serious blood being shed.

And at some point, you have to ask whether that is worth it to move them. Is a second civil war acceptable over some statues? regardless of what they represent to people, in the end, they're statues. How much death and damage is acceptable?

It's not acquiescence, and it's not approval. It's a baby's bottle. 

 

State flags, state houses, take them down. But going for 100% is going to result in much more damage than it's worth.

Historical sites. battlefields, significant locales.. leave them be. That is where history is and should be learned.

 

~Bang

Edited August 15, 2017 by Bang

[Mr. S]

I think something can be said about how Germany has stamped down any reference to Hitler and the Nazi's.  You don't see tributes to those leaders of the Nazi party around Germany.  You do however see the preserved concentration and death camps showing how horrible they were.  

 

Similarly, the people whose ancestors suffered the most due to slavery (mostly African Americans) may not want to see these statues up either.  

 

Me being a US born person of South Asian (India) descent, the History fan in me thinks there is something to be said of educating and informing people about the Civil War and the lives of the soldiers and leaders on both sides.  Many military innovations came about during the war and some fine strategists and tacticians on both sides played a part.  Shouldn't families be allowed to honor their ancestors who died in a truly horrific war?  Just like we cannot classify all German soldiers as Nazi's, can we classify all Confederate soldiers as racists?  

 

Also, where does it end?  Jefferson, Washington, and others had slaves.  Are they next?  Will we rename Washington DC in due time?

 

But being a history fan, what difference does it make in the end to keep these types of statues up?  What benefit is it really bringing?  I think at this point we do need to take a page from Germany and, legally and safely (not in protest like that Durham video shows), remove the Confederate statues.  Move them to battlefields or museums to at least preserve and teach the history so others don't forget.  We, as a country, should not try to honor the wrongs of the past.  

[RedskinsFan44]

10 hours ago, twa said:

 

trolling or truth?

 

 

And now the parties have flipped on the issue. Trolling or truth?

[StillUnknown]

1 hour ago, zoony said:

I love the South bashing threads from all you government leaching welfare state parasites who contribute nothing to society other than sucking the societal tax tit.

 

Also, DC is perhaps the most racist city in the United States.  Good thing you all arent a bunch of hypocritical assholes on that front.  This is almost as rich as douchebags from Boston preaching racial tolerance.  Almost.

 

As to the confederate monuments, i think they belong in museums, not city squares.  Have a nice day everyone!

 

[twa]

Just now, RedskinsFan44 said:

And now the parties have flipped on the issue. Trolling or truth?

 

Flipped or the Dems just moved to pandering on another issue?

[RedskinsFan44]

1 minute ago, twa said:

 

Flipped or the Dems just moved to pandering on another issue?

flipped

remember when the south was a democratic stronghold. yeah.

Edited August 15, 2017 by RedskinsFan44

[skinsmarydu]

1 minute ago, RedskinsFan44 said:

flipped

You're so smart.  Mr. Texas didn't get it.

Absolute truth...you are a historian, I see?

[Riggo-toni]

10 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Also, interracial marriage was a Virginia innovation.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia

 

 

Maybe my sarcasm meter is off? Or I have misunderstood?

This case invalidated laws against interracial marriage, but they had already been married in DC or some other state which had no such prohibitions, so I don't think crediting VA as the innovator of interracial marriage quite fits.

[Riggo-toni]

1 hour ago, skinsmarydu said:

The Civil War was a secession for state's rights...slavery BECAME the issue, for those who are historically challenged.  VA sat on the edge.  It was, and still is, conflicted territory. 

The South was virulently opposed to states' rights right up until the outbreak of war. It was northern abolitionists who originally championed states rights in refusing to return escaped slaves back to southern owners, and much to the delight of southerners, they were rebuffed by the Dred Scott decision.

 

It was only when it became clear that expansion would lead to a majority of free states that the southerners reversed course completely on states' rights in order to protect the institution of slavery.

That the war was fought over states rights became a canonical part of the southern myth later during the fight against desegregation.

[Riggo-toni]

We should put up statues of Earl Warren all across southern courthouses - the GOP appointed SCOTUS chief justice who mandated the end of segregation by reversing Plessy v Ferguson with the Brown v Topeka Board of Education decision, and abrogated all laws against interracial marriage in Loving v Virginia.

 

He also presided over the Miranda decision, and so is responsible for everyone who's ever watched TV to know "you have the right to remain silent..."

[@DCGoldPants]

When I was in Berlin, the most emotional thing was visiting the museum of Jewish History. Not just because I'm Jewish. But because they collected so much from before the war and put it all together there. Nazi stuff too.

 

A solution in my mind would be a new Civil War Museum in or near Washington. I know there are others around the country. But this one would be a place where all these statues could be for historical and educational value. A whole section on the Confederate States. 

[Hersh]

I suspect we will see a lot of bigger cities and places of diversity remove the monuments as much as possible. We will also see a lot of lawsuits files against states where the "small government" GOP have passed laws stopping these decisions from being made at the local level. Ya know, cause they are so full of principles about being against government overreach. It will be interesting to see if anything happens in a lot of the smaller towns in the south with significant black populations that have "confederate hero" statues. 

[Reaper Skins]

13 hours ago, No Excuses said:

 

Taking ideas on what the confederate statues should be melted and turned into.

 

Selfie sticks so everyone can broadcast how much this issue means to them since 5 minutes ago.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree with the statues coming down.

 

Let's just say I have a healthy skepticism of people who are willing to make a scene when they know the cameras are rolling and there's a chance for 15 seconds of internet fame

Edited August 15, 2017 by Reaper Skins