Nationwide Removal of Confederate Statues

[Going Commando]

39 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

I think you all need to relax.  There will be plenty of statues to put up after the next civil war coming soon.

 

It seems inconceivable but the road to civil war is never as difficult or far off as we think.  Americans of the antebellum behaved according to the logic of their time, and war was the natural result of the constitutional crisis they faced.

 

We've taken the strength of our civil institutions for granted for a long time.  But our society is much more fragile than we realize.  The Civil War provides us our most dire lessons about the dangers and costs of extreme political polarization and sectionalism in our political system.  It passed out of living memory with the Greatest Generation, so we actually have to work to keep the history of the war alive.  That's part of why I don't want to hide its history away by tearing down the monuments.  But I also don't feel like the Confederate monuments alone tell an adequate version of the story.

[visionary]

6 hours ago, Jumbo said:

i like how every time it's just fine and dandy "go to the nazi's" when someone wants to make a worst case example...and that just becuase i'm of goiman/austrian extraction (and yes, i was extracted) my feelinks are just a joke and my people are two...and you even have to do it in a thread where you already have as fodder all these racist redneck idol-worshiping murderous morons whose descendants would later inflict horrors like hee-haw and dukes of hazard on decent folk across the nation, and still you need bring up the "nazi" stuff...and like it would do any good to say anything to a mod...useless....

 

 

[Larry]

14 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

The Civil War provides us our most dire lessons about the dangers and costs of extreme political polarization and sectionalism in our political system.  It passed out of living memory with the Greatest Generation, so we actually have to work to keep the history of the war alive.  That's part of why I don't want to hide its history away by tearing down the monuments.  

 

 

News flash for you and everyone else shoveling this load of ****:  

 

Not one person is trying to "hide the history of the Civil War" by removing monuments to evil. 

 

So go take that straw man back to the Tractor Supply you bought it at. (Yes, I'm employing a colorful stereotype to ridicule the continued use of an untrue talking point). 

 

These monuments are not erected to remind people of the evils of civil war. They were erected to glorify the second biggest villains our nation ever fought. (In fact, I'd bet that the vast majority were erected specifically as an endorsement of racism. In short, they aren't monuments to the honor of the Confederacy, but to its racism). 

 

If people were trying to remove an accurate history of the Civil War, your talking point would be valid. But no one is trying to destroy the history of the Civil War but the people trying to turn the Confederacy into heroes. (Oh, and to use them as symbols of racism, so they can endorse racism, too). 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Larry

[Momma There Goes That Man]

17 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

but fighting simply because they believed it was right given the information that they had at the time, what they believed would protect their families, etc. 

 

Every way of a man is right in his own eyes.

 

Does this logic apply to Isis or Taliban enemies as well? Did it apply to Nazis at Nuremberg? I'm sure there are a lot of young terrorists that got caught up in the propaganda and found a brotherhood that was lacking in their life in those extremist groups or joined a bad cause out of a protection or duty to family. I'd imagine the answer is the same for all those enemies of the United States. 

 

17 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

I'm not making that point to defend Confederate ideals...I'm making that point because it's truly a slippery slope when we begin to pick and choose who is "important" enough to honor despite being racist or participating in slavery. It's very possible that there were better, albeit less important, men we are lumping into a category called "Confederate soldiers" without really knowing. 

 

It's not a slippery slope because we are not picking and choosing. History is. History knows the accomplishments of Washington and Jefferson, their impact is felt throughout time and still today which is why the are celebrated. I'm sure there were "better people" that fought on the confederate side but what did they do with their lives to be honored in the same way that Washington and Jefferson did? Had they distinguished themselves, history would recognize them beyond fighting bravely in a battle against America on the side that supported slavery. 

[Larry]

10 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

I'm sure there were "better people" that fought on the confederate side but what did they do with their lives to be honored in the same way that Washington and Jefferson did? Had they distinguished themselves, history would recognize them beyond fighting bravely in a battle against America on the side that supported slavery

 

And they're not being honored because of the supposedly great deeds they performed before or after the Confederacy. They're being honored because they were Confederates. 

[Going Commando]

50 minutes ago, Larry said:

These monuments are not erected to remind people of the evils of civil war. They were erected to glorify the second biggest villains our nation ever fought. (In fact, I'd bet that the vast majority were erected specifically as an endorsement of racism. In short, they aren't monuments to the honor of the Confederacy, but to its racism). 

 

I envy the clarity of your sources that you know the intent behind the building of all of these monuments was to endorse racism.  Don't ****ing tell me what Southerners and groups like the United Daughters of the Confederacy think about the Confederacy and the figures they're memorializing because you have no idea what you're talking about.  And LOL at the second biggest villains comment.  You have a cartoon understanding of the war.

[Zguy28]

Larry be like:

 

Edited August 22, 2018 by Zguy28
image site was troublesome

[The Evil Genius]

Would you at least agree that having the backing of the Klan for these monuments probably isn't for the best?

[Larry]

9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

And LOL at the second biggest villains comment. 

 

Well, I suppose they did come closer to destroying our nation than anyone else in our history. I mean, the Nazis make great movie villains, but they were never an actual threat to the US. 

 

Please ignore the word "second". 

 

 

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, The Evil Genius said:

Would you at least agree that having the backing of the Klan for these monuments probably isn't for the best?

 

No, it's ugly.  And there is no doubt they use the valor and achievement of Confederate war heroes to push an ideology of White Supremacy.  But why does the Klan get to define the purpose and meaning of the monuments?

Just now, Larry said:

 

Well, I suppose they did come closer to destroying our nation than anyone else in our history. I mean, the Nazis make great movie villains, but they were never an actual threat to the US. 

 

Please ignore the word "second". 

 

 

 

I'm going to do you one better and ignore everything else you have to say on the subject.

[Hersh]

12 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I envy the clarity of your sources that you know the intent behind the building of all of these monuments was to endorse racism.  Don't ****ing tell me what Southerners and groups like the United Daughters of the Confederacy think about the Confederacy and the figures they're memorializing because you have no idea what you're talking about.  And LOL at the second biggest villains comment.  You have a cartoon understanding of the war.

 

You don’t think the intent behind many of the statues, school/building names and roads was nefarious?

[Zguy28]

Just now, Hersh said:

 

You don’t think the intent behind many of the statues, school/building names and roads was nefarious?

Duh. The intent was to honor people who fought for a Confederacy that was formed to defend state's rights.... to continue the slave trade.

[Larry]

2 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I'm going to do you one better and ignore everything else you have to say on the subject.

 

Not surprising. Ignoring is how you got to where you are today. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

Just now, Larry said:

 

Not surprising. Ignoring is how you got to where you are today. 

 

Larry TKO2.

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Not surprising. Ignoring is how you got to where you are today. 

 

And just where is that?

6 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

You don’t think the intent behind many of the statues, school/building names and roads was nefarious?

 

I think that most of the organizations who put up the monuments made explicit statements of intent for doing so.  I think that the narrative "it was to remind black people to watch their step" is something that has been repeated in here a bunch of times to the point where you all have decided it's the truth and only truth.  But you don't get to tell your opponents what they mean, think, and feel.

[Bozo the kKklown]

The purpose was to honor soldiers and generals of the Confederacy,  Who were traitors who wanted to own slaves. It all comes back to white supremacy, no matter how you slice it.

 

Those people should not have statues and memorials or schools and highways names after them.

[Mr. Sinister]

Gotta say, this is an incredible heel turn.

[Jumbo]

18 minutes ago, Zguy28 said:

Duh. The intent was to honor people who fought for a Confederacy that was formed to defend state's rights.... to continue the slave trade.

 

 

OT--but dude...while i like the new avatar and think it suits,  i read on the internet just yesterday that thor now rules a new kingdom and i'm concerned for you

 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

 

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

The purpose was to honor soldiers and generals of the Confederacy,  Who were traitors who wanted to own slaves. It all comes back to white supremacy, no matter how you slice it.

 

Those people should not have statues and memorials or schools and highways names after them.

 

They fought for a terrible cause.  But how many of our wars are for bad causes?  How many of our soldiers are responsible for those causes? 

 

My opinion is that honor, martial virtue, and sacrifice are still worth memorializing even if the soldier fought for a terrible cause because they are civic virtues.  I fully agree with you about roads and schools though.  A statue is a work of art that's meant to keep the memory of something alive and/or celebrate some kind of virtue.  Schools and roads are meant for entirely different things.  I don't think it's appropriate at all to name a school after confederate soldiers.  And I'm not sure I like the idea of naming schools after soldiers in general.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Gotta say, this is an incredible heel turn.

 

[Bozo the kKklown]

3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

They fought for a terrible cause.  But how many of our wars are for bad causes?  How many of our soldiers are responsible for those causes? 

 

My opinion is that honor, martial virtue, and sacrifice are still worth memorializing even if the soldier fought for a terrible cause because they are civic virtues.  I fully agree with you about roads and schools though.  A statue is a work of art that's meant to keep the memory of something alive and/or celebrate some kind of virtue.  Schools and roads are meant for entirely different things.  I don't think it's appropriate at all to name a school after confederate soldiers.  And I'm not sure I like the idea of naming schools after soldiers in general.

1

You are acting like union soldiers weren't fighting with the same feelings and values yet we don't have as many statues for them? 

 

Here is the real, they were traitors. They fought to keep slavery. They fought to break up America. They can kick rocks.

 

They can be placed in museums and we can discuss it there with context. That is all. 

[TradeTheBeal!]

But what about Thomas Jefferson?

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

They fought for a terrible cause.  But how many of our wars are for bad causes?  How many of our soldiers are responsible for those causes? 

 

My opinion is that honor, martial virtue, and sacrifice are still worth memorializing even if the soldier fought for a terrible cause because they are civic virtues.  I fully agree with you about roads and schools though.  A statue is a work of art that's meant to keep the memory of something alive and/or celebrate some kind of virtue.  Schools and roads are meant for entirely different things.  I don't think it's appropriate at all to name a school after confederate soldiers.  And I'm not sure I like the idea of naming schools after soldiers in general.

 

I'm sure there were men that did not support the Confederacy or slavery that fought for the Confederate Army that were drafted as a result of the Confederate Conscription Act.  Those men died and are not on any monuments that I know of (please correct me if I'm wrong).  Those statues/monuments/flags are a symbol of racism, imo. 

 

Remove the statues, put them in a museum where people don't have to drive or walk by them everyday and see them.  Those that want to visit the museum can do so on their own accord.  For those men that were drafted against their will into the Confederate Army, they could honor them with some type of memorial like the Vietnam Wall.  But those that enlisted and the military leaders in the Confederate Army should not be honored, imo.  

 

[Larry]

13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

My opinion is that honor, martial virtue, and sacrifice are still worth memorializing even if the soldier fought for a terrible cause because they are civic virtues. 

 

How many statues you figure there are in, say, Georgia, of Confederate soldiers?  

 

And how many of Union soldiers?  

 

But please, keep trying to push the notion that they're there to honor virtue and sacrifice, and not to honor the Confederacy.