PleaseBlitz Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 @Momma There Goes That Man said we should honor those that "fought on the victorious American side." There was only one victorious American side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 9 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I think you know this is wrong. Lincoln refused to acknowledge their secession and argued that they were American citizens of American states in rebellion. This was a crucial interpretation because to acknowledge their secession as legitimate would have destroyed his justification for going to war with them. It would have been the Union invading a sovereign state. I'll admit, I kinda cringed seeing that, too. Civil War is deadliest American war because it was American killing American. No country official acknowledged the confederacy as a sovereign nation (though UK and French government hotly debated it, rumors they helped anyway) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 20 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: @Momma There Goes That Man said we should honor those that "fought on the victorious American side." There was only one victorious American side. The confederate soldiers proved their valor in battle many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: The confederate soldiers proved their valor in battle many times. For the wrong team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: The confederate soldiers proved their valor in battle many times. You aren't gonna win this one, I'd let it go. Both sides grew more respect for each after it was obvious first bull run wouldn't be the blow out either side expected. The confederates causes will forever taint that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, bearrock said: For the wrong team. Once again, great nations commemorate valor in honorable enemies. And in this case, the enemies were fellow Americans. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Confederates typically had better generals, but I have a bad feeling in where this convo is going right now. Think it through, fellas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearrock Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 1 minute ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Once again, great nations commemorate valor in honorable enemies. And in this case, the enemies were fellow Americans. How many statues do we have of enemies from WWI or WWII? Maybe people could compromise and build statues of southerners who provided great humanitarian aid? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 15 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: The confederate soldiers proved their valor in battle many times. So did lots of soldiers throughout American history. Only monuments to confederate soldiers were erected specifically to intimidate certain portions of the population. 6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Once again, great nations commemorate valor in honorable enemies. And in this case, the enemies were fellow Americans. If you can name me another country with 1,740 monuments commemorating honorable enemies, I'd love to hear it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Pretty sure @stevemcqueen1 isn't talking about keeping the statues up but acknowledging that were indeed all American. Carry on, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said: So did lots of soldiers throughout American history. Only monuments to confederate soldiers were erected specifically to intimidate certain portions of the population. We have monuments to celebrate heroes and sacrifice in our other wars too. there are thousands of Confederate monuments erected in the country and you are sure the reason they were all put up was for racists to intimidate black people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Pretty sure @stevemcqueen1 isn't talking about keeping the statues up but acknowledging that were indeed all American. Carry on, though. No I think most of them should be left up. I am against sanitizing history and shuffling it away out of sight and mind in a museum. I think it ultimately leads to historical illiteracy. I think we should be building more historical monuments in public spaces, not getting rid of them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: We have monuments to celebrate heroes and sacrifice in our other wars too. Well, I don't really see anything objectionable about celebrating heroes in most wars, but I do see something objectionable about celebrating, on public property, soldiers that fought to perpetuate slavery, when those monuments were erected largely during periods of racial conflict by private organizations. We don't have any monuments to, say, King George III, king of England during the revolution (an honorable enemy). We used to, but the revolutionaries tore that **** down, melted it, and turned it into musket balls to shoot at the redcoats. https://www.amrevmuseum.org/press-room/press-releases/“melted-majesty”-musket-ball-discovered-monmouth-battlefield-be-displayed 6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: there are thousands of Confederate monuments erected in the country and you are sure the reason they were all put up was for racists to intimidate black people? I didn't say all (nice try), but as I already mentioned, confederate statutes were largely erected during two distinct periods. The first began around 1900, amid the period in which Southern states were enacting Jim Crow laws to disenfranchise the newly freed African Americans and re-segregate society. The second began in the early 1950s and lasted through the 1960s, as the civil rights movement led to a backlash among segregationists/racists that didn't want to drink from the same fountain. There are well over 1500 of them, again, on public property. Further, as far as I know, Silent Sam is a fictional soldier who displayed no valor or any other personal characteristic. It is simply a monument to the confederacy, again, on public display at a school to, I guess, remind people of how great the confederacy was and, again, the dedication speech was by a KKK supporter who spoke about horsewhipping a black girl and how great he felt about that. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: No I think most of them should be left up. I am against sanitizing history and shuffling it away out of sight and mind in a museum. I think it ultimately leads to historical illiteracy. I think we should be building more historical monuments in public spaces, not getting rid of them. History isn't told with statues, it's told with books. As hyperpartisain as our country has become, I'll only support monuments that don't add to that division. Please tell me you don't want more confederate statues. Again, Robert E Lee didn't want this for this exact reason. Edited August 21, 2018 by Renegade7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 33 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: Once again, great nations commemorate valor in honorable enemies. 14 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I am against sanitizing history One of these things is not like the other. 2 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 I don't think removal of these statues is sanitizing history. Anyway, there is a weird line here between our country granting honorable status to the former Confederate states, and their citizens, and the dishonor of the cause they fought for (with valor in many cases). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zguy28 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Larry said: Just had a patient's mother inform me that she is a civil war expert. And the civil war wasn't about slavery, it was because the North didn't have any ports, and wanted the South's ports. No, no, no. It was about State's rights...................................................................................................................to own slaves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 28 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: History isn't told with statues, it's told with books. As hyperpartisain as our country has become, I'll only support monuments that don't add to that division. Please tell me you don't want more confederate statues. Again, Robert E Lee didn't want this for this exact reason. I am not arguing for more Confederate statuary, but more statuary from the Civil War would be beneficial and worthy. I think there should be be statues of black heroes and instances of sacrifice and union soldiery and sacrifice placed among the Confederate statuary. I think there is real educational and historic value in placing statues and monuments in public spaces. It makes interaction with our history a daily, tangible thing. They tell a story that something important happened to our ancestors and they demonstrate the value we place on civic virtues like valor and sacrifice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 My head hurts 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 11 minutes ago, Zguy28 said: I don't think removal of these statues is sanitizing history. Anyway, there is a weird line here between our country granting honorable status to the former Confederate states, and their citizens, and the dishonor of the cause they fought for (with valor in many cases). I don't think we should blame the soldiery for the war. That is an over simplification. And I don't think fighting for an unworthy cause diminishes their valor or honor. When we start going there, do we denigrate the heroes of Vietnam and Iraq for fighting futile wars to protect colonialism and corporate war profiteering? Their sacrifices and heroism are sincere and worthy. America has a complicated and problematic history and no period is more emblematic of this than our biggest and most costly war. But it's important to remember this time and commemorate the virtue of the participants when they demonstrated it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 The simple solution is really to go back to this being a local issue. Unfortunately in NC there has been an unchecked power grab by the legislature (it's pretty crazy if for those of us that live in NC). The truth is that no one would miss 99% of these statues or highway/building names. It wouldn't be sanitizing history and it wouldn't be placating "snowflakes." It would just be one less issue that people argue about and we could move to being a happier people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 37 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: I think there is real educational and historic value in placing statues and monuments in public spaces. It makes interaction with our history a daily, tangible thing. They tell a story that something important happened to our ancestors and they demonstrate the value we place on civic virtues like valor and sacrifice. I feel what you want, but I think Civil War is jus too sensitive a topic to go this route with. I think how you look at statues is different then say most people do, they jus pass them by, might look at the plaque, which rarely does the individual justice. The story behind the majority of the confederate statues is unique and has to be taken into account, it's not normal to have that many for the losing side and to intimiate an entire race of people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said: @Momma There Goes That Man said we should honor those that "fought on the victorious American side." There was only one victorious American side. Pretty sure he clarified what he meant in the next post. Does this mean no native American statues either? I mean they won some battles, but the real Americans whopped em good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PleaseBlitz Posted August 21, 2018 Share Posted August 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, twa said: Pretty sure he clarified what he meant in the next post. Does this mean no native American statues either? I mean they won some battles, but the real Americans whopped em good. How many native American statues are there that glorify their fight for the continuance of slavery? None? Okay then. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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