Newsweek: Alex Jones and Other Conservatives Call For Civil War Against Liberals

[skinsmarydu]

1 hour ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Often wrong, never in doubt...

I always see @Jumbo's sig in these moments. 🤓

[Rogue Jedi]

Honestly, this has been all what’s been on my mind since the NZ massacre, and I’ve been losing a lot of sleep with all the anxiety it gives me.

 

Some of you on the older side (and I mean with the least offense as possible) don’t quite understand how the internet and social media has changed the game. This white nationalism idea is spreading wider and faster than before. I snooped sites like reddit and 4chan to only be completely shocked at the response. People on their were cheering and calling the psycho a hero for their cause.

 

For those not familiar, 4chan is a image board site that had humble beginnings with people into anime and video games, but over time basically became a white nationalist alt-right site. The unique aspect of this site is that it is usually unmoderated and posts are anonymous. This site probably had the most uploads of the live stream of the massacre since everything is basically allowed, and the posts of people gleefully mocking the victims being murdered was sickening.

 

Those people basically view this as a signal, and are preparing for war. 4chan is public. I can’t imagine what’s going on the dark web that we don’t have access to.

 

What scares me most about this possible civil war is that nihilists all around will use this as an opportunity to “cleanse” as many minorities as possible.

 

My family is of muslim descent (I’m pretty agnostic), and they don’t believe in owning firearms or weapons of any kind, so we have really no way of defending ourselves.

 

It’s not my safety that I’m concerned about as much as it is my parents. They’ve given back so much to the community through charities and blood donations, whether it be for disaster relief like Katrina and 9/11, and worked really hard to give me and my sister an upper middle class life in Nothern Va after coming here and starting from the bottom.

 

Quite frankly, they are just really kind and good people and they don’t deserve to go out like that, but they are old and defenseless. Who will they turn to? There’s rumors the police and army are infiltrated with people like this, and if **** hits the fan, who will protect them? 

 

Sorry for the long post, this **** is eating my brain and it feels like I’m losing my sanity. I had to just get some of it out.

 

To end on a lighter note, I hope both sides have enough decency to holster their weapons till the final Game of Thrones episode.

[NoCalMike]

I'd venture to say most of the posters on 4chan are depressed self loathing incels who are basically keyboard warriors, mix them with another majority on there who are basically trolling because they think it is funny to be a jerk.  If their true identities were ever discovered they would probably be exposed as crybaby cowards.  The internet just gives them the freedom to talk a big game anonymously.  I suppose the fear is that out of say 10,000 users, there will likely end up being a handful that are successfully egged on enough to actually do something.  

Edited March 28, 2019 by NoCalMike

[Llevron]

1 minute ago, NoCalMike said:

I'd venture to say most of the posters on 4chan are depressed self loathing incels who are basically keyboard warriors, mix them with another majority on there who are basically trolling because they think it is funny to be a jerk.  If their true identities were ever discovered they would probably be exposed as crybaby cowards.  The internet just gives them the freedom to talk a big game anonymously.  I suppose the fear is that out of say 10,000 users, there will likely end up being a handful that are successfully egged on enough to actually do something.  

 

The fun part is alot of them have migrated to 8chan because 4chan was too PC or some stupid **** like that. 

[Rogue Jedi]

18 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I suppose the fear is that out of say 10,000 users, there will likely end up being a handful that are successfully egged on enough to actually do something.  

 

Thats what worries me. A single match can burn the house down. And it’s quite evident this administration doesn’t seem to take the threat seriously 

[TheGreatBuzz]

25 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I'd venture to say most of the posters on 4chan are depressed self loathing incels who are basically keyboard warriors, mix them with another majority on there who are basically trolling because they think it is funny to be a jerk.  If their true identities were ever discovered they would probably be exposed as crybaby cowards.  The internet just gives them the freedom to talk a big game anonymously.  I suppose the fear is that out of say 10,000 users, there will likely end up being a handful that are successfully egged on enough to actually do something.  

I think some of the concern is that you get one or two of those people willing to do something and stick them in a crowd at a protest.  Mob mentallity takes over on the incels and trolls.

[Going Commando]

53 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I'm with @Hersh in thinking this whole topic about civil war is sort of silly.  The GOP is going to die or have to massively reinvent itself in the near future, just due to demographic shifts, their base dying off and not being replaced, and the forthcoming massive generation not generally being on board with any of their positions.  The GOP itself knew it was in trouble in 2012 and the underlying facts have not changed.  The GOP is holding on because it's older base of evangelicals vote more than any other demographic, combined with political gerrymandering/Senate vote distribution, voter suppression and help from foreign interference.  Trumpism is the last, terrible death rattle of tea party republicanism, and it's going to have the effect of pushing the country to the left.  

 

I don't think Democrats can continue putting our faith in demographics and the system to save us.  I don't think we can continue believing that we can restore a sort of Pre-Obama, pre-Rove status quo.

 

- I don't think we should write off the seriousness of the core grievance of White nationalists--that white population and culture is facing an existential demographic threat.  People get militant and get to the point where any means is justified when they believe they are facing an existential threat.  Their concern is not going to go away due the collapse of white majority demographics in the West.  They will get more extreme.

 

- I don't think we are more than a stone's throw from white nationalism becoming mainstream Right Wing politics.  I'm not sure we aren't already there here in the US.

 

- I don't think it actually takes anything close to a majority of the population to be radicalized and militarized for civil society to unravel into armed conflict.  And I think a fairly large bloc of American Right wingers are pretty far down the road of radicalization and militarization.  And I think this includes their political leadership, which has already been fully conditioned to depersonalize the Left.

 

- I don't think that standards of living and the level of functionality of the government are likely to improve as the effects of climate change become more pronounced and severe.  I think they will erode at an increasing rate proportionate to the increasing stress of climate change.

 

- I no longer think that there is anyway for us to avoid wide-scale societal disruption due to the effects of climate change.  I think we've already passed the point of no return, and have little hope of mobilizing the global economy in order to even substantially blunt the impact of climate change.  I think that we are looking at a timeline of decades before food shortages and mass migrations start becoming serious issues in the developed world.  if the erosion of our standards of living is gradual enough--say like 80 years before most people are living in what we would consider now to be poverty--rampant food and housing insecurity, unstable employment, and no access to healthcare--then maybe we won't see a really broad conflict within the United States.  But I also think that a shock that could cause rapid decline in standards of living would be unpredictable and always lurking around the corner--widespread crop failures in consecutive years is a terrifying potential shock.  And something like that becomes increasingly likely the more climate change takes effect.

 

- I'm also not sure how all of the broken aspects of our government that you outlined that Republicans use to hold power are going to be changed, or become less effective.  If anything, Republicans will continue breaking the system to keep power because that's what they're  incentivized to do.

 

- I don't think it's any great leap at all for American white nationalist radicals to turn to Russian funding and logistical support for militant operations in the United States.  I think this has already started with Russian patronage of Trump.

 

I get that these are deeply disturbing thoughts that no one wants to believe will come to pass.  I've been very hesitant to share them before.  I am pessimistic that there is anything that can be done to meaningfully stop this.  But we also have no chance to prepare for everything that's coming if we don't start looking at these contingencies and planning for them.

[Bang]

As i've been saying..   best be ready. i know folks think i'm just an angry firebrand lately, taking anything this admin does to the extreme conclusions, but believe it or not, i am a thoughtful person and I try to look at things objectively. 

And objectively, it's obvious. None of this will end without a lot o blood. It never does. It's more than here, it'll be more than a civil war.. because once we start, everyone else will be forced in by nazi terrorists that will drag them in.
They broke the system, the stupid have been swayed, and they are too stupid to know it.

A lot of people are going to die, and I hope i am wrong.

 

But i don't think I am.

 

~Bang

[No Excuses]

2 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I'm with @Hersh in thinking this whole topic about civil war is sort of silly.  The GOP is going to die or have to massively reinvent itself in the near future, just due to demographic shifts, their base dying off and not being replaced, and the forthcoming massive generation not generally being on board with any of their positions.  The GOP itself knew it was in trouble in 2012 and the underlying facts have not changed.  The GOP is holding on because it's older base of evangelicals vote more than any other demographic, combined with political gerrymandering/Senate vote distribution, voter suppression and help from foreign interference.  Trumpism is the last, terrible death rattle of tea party republicanism, and it's going to have the effect of pushing the country to the left.  

 

Right now the GOP is basically the party of white Christians waging a culture war against changing racial demographics and social values. The GOP doesn’t shout white genocide in its party platform but it basically dog whistles this with its anti-immigrant and xenophobic agenda. It attracts voters with its anti-liberal culture war, while simultaneously shifting wealth and power towards  its party funders.

 

The assumption that a nativist party will just go away as demographics evolve could be true. But if we look at the pattern of governance the GOP has shown over this decade, they don’t care about subverting democraticn norms. They don’t care if they are on the receiving end of electoral aid from a foreign country whose values and mission is in opposition to ours. They don’t care if they have to resort to voter suppression tactics to maintain electoral strength. They don’t care if they rewrite rules for incoming administrations (see:  Wisconsin). 

 

They are openly disregarding long-held democratic norms. They attack the free press and label it the enemy of the people. They have a state propaganda network that shamelessly spreads baseless conspiracy theories.

 

The assumption that things will return to normal post-Trump in the GOP, I haven’t seen anything yet that suggests this will happen. The GOP since 2008 has been on a path of becoming more extreme in its views, more insulated and more prone to using hateful rhetoric.

 

Can it get worse than Trump? Yes. We should in fact, expect this to be the case. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by No Excuses

[Bang]

I have heard people telling me these old people will die off for 35 years now.

They don't die off.

They teach their kids the same ****.

 

How many old people did y'all see in Charlottesville?

The GOP won't change. They are succeeding. They will not stop until they reach their endgame or are stopped.

And it's nice to think votes will do that. But not very realistic.

 

~Bang

 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Bang

[PleaseBlitz]

17 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

Right now the GOP is basically the party of white Christians waging a culture war against changing racial demographics and social values. The GOP doesn’t shout white genocide in its party platform but it basically dog whistles this with its anti-immigrant and xenophobic agenda. It attracts voters with its anti-liberal culture war, while simultaneously shifting wealth and power towards  its party funders.

 

The assumption that a nativist party will just go away as demographics evolve could be true. But if we look at the pattern of governance the GOP has shown over this decade, they don’t care about subverting democraticn norms. They don’t care if they are on the receiving end of electoral aid from a foreign country whose values and mission is in opposition to ours. They don’t care if they have to resort to voter suppression tactics to maintain electoral strength. They don’t care if they rewrite rules for incoming administrations (see:  Wisconsin). 

 

This is all true.  The GOP is definitely the party of white Xtians trying to retain their primacy within America, and they are fighting the inevitable not because of racial demographics alone, but also because the fight itself is turning off wide swaths of (educated, non-rural) white people to both the GOP and the church.  Furthermore, I think the GOP's contravention of democratic norms will hurt it in the long run, although certainly there is a benefit in the short term, which we are currently living in.  

 

17 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

They are openly disregarding long-held democratic norms. They attack the free press and label it the enemy of the people. They have a state propaganda network that shamelessly spreads baseless conspiracy theories.

 

Again, all true.  I just think that people that buy into those things are like 40% of the country, and they severely turn off everyone else.  

 

17 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

The assumption that things will return to normal post-Trump in the GOP, I haven’t seen anything yet that suggests this will happen. The GOP since 2008 has been on a path of becoming more extreme in its views, more insulated and more prone to using hateful rhetoric.

 

Can it get worse than Trump? Yes. We should in fact, expect this to be the case. 

 

I think post-Trump there will be a period where Trump is gone and the party tries to hold onto Trumpism, but nobody can really pull it off.  I think that will prove to be very unpopular, and then the GOP will (be forced to) reinvent itself, probably in some type of Reagan-esque or "compassionate conservative" type of way.  

[nonniey]

4 minutes ago, Bang said:

I have heard people telling me these old people will die off for 35 years now.

They don't die off.

They teach their kids the same ****.

 

How many old people did y'all see in Charlottesville?

The GOP won't change. They are succeeding. They will not stop until they reach their endgame or are stopped.

And it's nice to think votes will do that. But not very realistic.

 

~Bang

 

Votes or appropriate (again - appropriate) court action damn well should be the only way used to stop any political opponent in this country. Civil war and use of violence because voting doesn't go ones way is not an option.

[The Evil Genius]

29 minutes ago, nonniey said:

Votes or appropriate (again - appropriate) court action damn well should be the only way used to stop any political opponent in this country. Civil war and use of violence because voting doesn't go ones way is not an option.

 

That's nice as long as the GOP doesn't continue to pack and crack voting districts and mysteriously dump hundreds of thousands off of the voting rolls. I find it funny when conservatives tell people to vote when their own party doesn't want people to vote.

[Destino]

There is virtually no threat of civil war.  The way extremism seems to work is that some portion of an angry group gets more angry.  A lot more angry.  They also adopt even more rigid and extreme views and start to imagine themselves more committed or authentic than anyone that isn't looking to burn everyone that disagrees with them into little piles of ash.  Conservative anger, fear, and irresponsible rhetoric is creating a small group of fascists and racist lunatics.  

 

Liberals aren't pushing extremist policies as a whole, and they're clearly winning the culture war, so I don't think they're producing crazies on the same scale.  The environment isn't right.  If there is any crazy production on the left it's coming from ANTIFA, which exists largely as a reaction to fascists.  They certainly are mad enough to spit out the sort of heated rhetoric that attracts or creates extremism.  And so they have a small group of extremist of their very own.  They're the ones that show up in black, are described as anarchists, and just spoiling for a fight.  Interestingly, if you read the blogs related to those particular goons, they're not just anarchists... they're largely communist. 

 

This situation does not lead to civil war.  It leads to fringe groups getting violent and maybe a terrorist problem.  The larger segments of the population are not gearing up for war.  The US is a long way from that.  Out in the real world there is no obvious tension suggesting that the groups, each numbering in the tens of millions, are preparing to murder each other.  There are small (relatively) pockets of violent radicals springing up, and there are crazy people on TV and internet saying crazy things.  But American society is not fracturing. 

 

[Going Commando]

52 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

Can it get worse than Trump? Yes. We should in fact, expect this to be the case. 

 

The climate looms over all of this.  It looms over everything for me.  It's a force majeure that guarantees no matter what we do, the entirety of human civilization is going to go through a significant disruption within our lifetimes (assuming an average lifespan).  Even in the best case scenario.

 

I look at how humanity handled the disruption of the Great Recession or even the disruption caused by the democratization of technology and communication (Arab Spring), and I am very pessimistic about our ability to handle the much larger disruptions that will follow warming.  We're not putting our brightest and most selfless people into consequential leadership positions.  Instead the super wealthy people who run things are hoarding their wealth and consolidating their power.  They're fracturing society by stressing age old cleavage lines of ethnic nationalism the motivate a militant bloc to protect their interests.  This is exactly what the wealthy leaders of Virginia Colony did in the 1670s when populism and egalitarianism threatened the social coherence of an insecure society that was never very far away from unraveling.  This is the go-to tactic for societies led by small groups of elites--which we are--because it always works.  In times of conflict and stress, everyone hews to their tribe.

 

Feels like every day there is some new sign of decline.  Trump saying that Puerto Rico received too much relief after Maria for example.  The day we quibble and haggle over providing disaster relief to our citizens--the single worthiest way a government can spend money--is the day we have meaningfully diminished as a society.  **** like that will become our new normal.

[Jumbo]

 

[dfitzo53]

That was my favorite song on my dad's Kingston Trio album growing up. 

[Bang]

5 hours ago, nonniey said:

Votes or appropriate (again - appropriate) court action damn well should be the only way used to stop any political opponent in this country. Civil war and use of violence because voting doesn't go ones way is not an option.

I agree. No one should use violence for many reasons. But they do all the time.

And the President has begun threatening political violence. twice now, to my count.. his cops and bikers.. veiled and unveiled threats... continually playing to the angle of "democrats are dangerous"... Literally using those words..  "democrats are dangerous folks...  i don't know..."   again and again. 
How do you see any of that playing out? What exactly is the purpose of it? It certainly isn't political. Threats of violence aren't new..  i wonder how many members of the press felt threatened at his campaign rallies when he TOLD people ot turn around and scream at them , all the while telling them they are dangerous, they are liars, they are trying to destroy the country, trying to destroy him..

I'll go out on a limb. They want violence, they want democrats threatened, they want a strongarm to stop the dangerous democrats. They are an easily frightened, easily angered, and exceedingly stupid bunch.  There will be (more) violence.

remember,, this is the guy who has nothing but praise for thug Duarte, thug Kim...   brutal dictators who murder their population. He has said twice in public he thinks "president for life" is a good idea. "Maybe we should do that here." he keeps saying

 

Hope I'm wrong, but I doubt we will see Trump and the Trumpist GOP wanting anything to do with a "peaceful transfer of power.".

If he loses in 2020, do you really see him playing by the rules? He never has. Mob rule is his entire center of power, not the constitution and certainly no notion of patriotism.

He won't say "attack" in direct terms..  but he already is in indirect terms.

 

So we can be as indignant as we want about how we shouldn't do this or we shouldn't resort to that.  But these things are usually not left up to us, and if you can't smell that the coffee is starting to percolate, i am not sure what to tell you.
Best be ready.

 

~Bang

Edited March 28, 2019 by Bang

[TheGreatBuzz]

4 minutes ago, Bang said:

How do you see any of that playing out?

Just pointing out that I saw this coming a while ago and even started a thread on it.  What did I win?

[Destino]

@Bang you’re talking about Trump the way Chileans talked about Pinochet when he lost his election.  Trump isn’t a dictator and nothing he’s done puts him in that category.  He’s a jerk that won an election and continued to show his ass while in office.  He’s irresponsible and shameless, probably fair to say dangerously so, but he’s not a coup and military junta waiting to happen.

 

I have absolutely no reason to believe that if he loses the election he’ll do anything other than act like a big jerk before (and after) leaving the White House.  What he says might encourage the angry fascists that love him so much to do some stupid things, and possibly hurt some people, but he’s still going to step aside when his time comes.

 

 

[Jumbo]

Don't listen to Destino. If they kill Dog, we riot.

[Destino]

8 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

Don't listen to Destino. 

Sage advice. 

[NoCalMike]

I would not be shocked if Trump contests the results of the 2020 election should he lose, the bigger question is how the rest of the GOP will react.  In 2000, Gore could have chosen to prolong the contested election but he didn't and that election actually had a legitimate case to be placed on hold while the mess in FL was handled properly.   Of course it is a bit different since neither candidate was the incumbent. 

[Bang]

No dictator is a dictator until they are.

Wherever it has happened, people always said "it can't happen here".

 

He may huff and sulk and walk out like he won something. Except he has said things that hint to other ideas.

And as was said, he's a jerk..  he's an insecure bully. And he has spent his entire life screwing as many people out of as much as he can and doing only that which is in his own self interest, regardless of law, public perception, or even a shred of common decency. 

 

The toady GOP will back every single attempt to do it if he does. bet on that. He could burn the constitution and they'd back it. Write a new one. How hard would it be convince their masses? There has not been any step too far, any lie to brazen, or any contortion of reality that hasn't been fully accepted, defended, and cheered. Contradiction doesn't register, don't bet on self reflection.

 

As i said, i hope not..  but if and when, there will be no surprise on my face. 

 

~Bang

Edited March 29, 2019 by Bang

[No Excuses]

19 hours ago, PleaseBlitz said:

think post-Trump there will be a period where Trump is gone and the party tries to hold onto Trumpism, but nobody can really pull it off.  I think that will prove to be very unpopular, and then the GOP will (be forced to) reinvent itself, probably in some type of Reagan-esque or "compassionate conservative" type of way.  

 

This is the optimistic scenario but I think it’s wishful thinking:

 

1. It implies that there will be a major change in the identity of the GOP voter, where they drop the core philosophy that has driven the party for the last 10 years or so. They have shifted further right progressively, especially when forced to reconsider their politics. Remember the 2012 aftermath report that said the GOP must become more diverse in its outreach? They did the exact opposite and it was almost purely driven by the base and not the party heads who tried to resist Trumpism early on. 

 

2. It also assumes that the conservative media will tone down the rhetoric and the growth of right wing Alex Jones/conspiracy nonsense in right wing circles will fade away. 

 

There are just no signs of this. 

 

Look at the support for the QAnon conspiracy at the last Trump rally. None of these people are entering the real world in our lifetime. This is a brainwashed cult that has lost touch with reality. If I was conservative with a shred of decency left, I would seriously evaluate what the **** I am doing when those closest to my views are this insane: 

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by No Excuses