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Fixing the Republican Party (new material on pg 9)

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19 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

Ohohoh ask me! Ask me!

Asssk meeeeeee!!!!!!!

 

LMAO fine.  I'll ask you.  (See above question).  

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Rex Tomb said:

But, instead, it turned into an anti-white, anti-Christian tirade. 

 

It’s not personal.. that’s what is at the core of far-left ideology, and maybe some people on these boards are a part of that far-left.  Different perspectives is what makes the net interesting.  

 

Im not really sure how else to look at programs that arbitrarily add points to an applicants score on the sole bases of their sex and race as anything but discrimination... it’s probably justified though.

Edited by CousinsCowgirl84

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Posted (edited)

Regarding "fixing the Republican Party," I saw that a poll of the Alabama GOP Senate primary was released today. Roy Moore has a sizable lead. 

 

I think it's beyond fixing.

Edited by skinsfan_1215
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3 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

Regarding "fixing the Republican Party," I saw that a poll of the Alabama GOP Senate primary was released today. Roy Moore has a sizable lead. 

 

I think it's beyond fixing.

 

 

He'll win just because of a sympathy vote. The poor dude was treated so bad...

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23 minutes ago, superozman said:

 

Many churches do loudly announce Christianity condemns discrimination.  Have you gone to local churches to see what they have done, or are you just generalizing from what you've read?

 

1 minute ago, superozman said:

 

LMAO fine.  I'll ask you.  (See above question).  

I spent most of my adult life (20 years) actively working in and being trained in predominantly white churches/denominations (Baptist and United Methodist) and in that time I can say that there are many pastors who decry discrimination in most of its forms. Those voices are however disproportionately found within the more liberal mainstream denominations, and while there are voices that show up in Conservative denominations around MLK Day they are typically silent on the issue the rest of the time. That goes for many mainline pastors in Conservative areas too. Even when we do hear these clerical voices on the issue of discrimination it is almost always limited to racial discrimination, and rarely if ever addresses the six other Federally protected classes. And almost never, except in the most liberal churches on the issues of homosexuality, and other religions. And that is from the clergy. If you want a more stark understanding of the church and discrimination then look at the always present divide between the laity and the clergy who on average tend to be FAR more extreme on these issues than their clergy. This is one of the main issues in the UMC today where the divide between the laity and clergy is so wide on the issue of same sex relationships that it will most likely divide the church in the same way slavery did in the 1800's. When you look at most white Evangelical laity they look VERY much like Trump's Conservative Nationalistic base who are actively working to maintain their ability to actively discriminate by simply saying that whoever is standing in front of them is against their religion. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

I saw that a poll of the Alabama GOP Senate primary was released today. Roy Moore has a sizable lead. 

 

Someone needs to remind the proud voters of Alabama that none of the teenage girls he molested were blood relations, and that is antithetical to their state's long-standing cultural values.

Edited by Riggo-toni
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6 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

I spent most of my adult life (20 years) actively working in and being trained in predominantly white churches/denominations (Baptist and United Methodist) and in that time I can say that there are many pastors who decry discrimination in most of its forms. Those voices are however disproportionately found within the more liberal mainstream denominations, and while there are voices that show up in Conservative denominations around MLK Day they are typically silent on the issue the rest of the time. That goes for many mainline pastors in Conservative areas too. Even when we do hear these clerical voices on the issue of discrimination it is almost always limited to racial discrimination, and rarely if ever addresses the six other Federally protected classes. And almost never, except in the most liberal churches on the issues of homosexuality, and other religions. And that is from the clergy. If you want a more stark understanding of the church and discrimination then look at the always present divide between the laity and the clergy who on average tend to be FAR more extreme on these issues than their clergy. This is one of the main issues in the UMC today where the divide between the laity and clergy is so wide on the issue of same sex relationships that it will most likely divide the church in the same way slavery did in the 1800's. When you look at most white Evangelical laity they look VERY much like Trump's Conservative Nationalistic base who are actively working to maintain their ability to actively discriminate by simply saying that whoever is standing in front of them is against their religion. 

 

So my claim was many churches denounce discrimination.  You state that many pastors decry discrimination in most of its forms.  So we agree there I believe.  

 

You state that there are churches/pastors that voice the issue but typically only racism.  I'm not sure what churches need to do with the other 6 classes that they aren't doing, considering if you remove race and religion there are 9 other classes.  I'm not sure I like that claim how it's stated, but feel free to elaborate.

 

And I think we can agree that there is a divide in some churches between laity and clergy.  I've been in that situation.  However, in my area, i've seen more churches where the laity does not like the decision of clergy in being too judgmental and not being outward in discrimination.  So interested flip there from your area versus mine on that one.  

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16 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

 

 When you look at most white Evangelical laity they look VERY much like Trump's Conservative Nationalistic base who are actively working to maintain their ability to actively discriminate by simply saying that whoever is standing in front of them is against their religion. 

 

Do you have much experience with laity of color and similar bias?

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1 hour ago, superozman said:

 

Many churches do loudly announce Christianity condemns discrimination.  Have you gone to local churches to see what they have done, or are you just generalizing from what you've read?

 

I have no doubt that they do. 

 

And then they (no doubt not all. Many) tell their flock to go vote for the candidate who has promised to make it legal for businesses to discriminate, as long as the owner claims that his religion endorses it. 

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28 minutes ago, Riggo-toni said:

Someone needs to remind the proud voters of Alabama that none of the teenage girls he molested were blood relationships, and that is antithetical to their state's long-standing cultural values.

 

They call that the James Woods factor.

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5 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

I have no doubt that they do. 

 

And then they (no doubt not all. Many) tell their flock to go vote for the candidate who has promised to make it legal for businesses to discriminate, as long as the owner claims that his religion endorses it. 

 

Can you provide examples of "they tell their clock go vote for.....legal for businesses to discriminate...", as you assert so strongly here?

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19 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Do you have much experience with laity of color and similar bias?

I have not, and I do not believe I have spoken as if I do. If you have an issue with what I wrote I'd be happy to address it.

3 minutes ago, superozman said:

 

Can you provide examples of "they tell their clock go vote for.....legal for businesses to discriminate...", as you assert so strongly here?

Low hanging fruit man. 

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3 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

I have not, and I do not believe I have spoken as if I do. If you have an issue with what I wrote I'd be happy to address it.

 

Just curious. :ols:

 

 

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11 minutes ago, AsburySkinsFan said:

I have not, and I do not believe I have spoken as if I do. If you have an issue with what I wrote I'd be happy to address it.

Low hanging fruit man. 

Wasn't asking you, however, I disagree.  He is making a claim, and I am looking for examples of "Many" that "Tell their flock", that validates the claim.  

 

I don't think i'm asking for anything that isn't pertinent to the conversation.  Additionally, i'm asking after a claim, not making claims and not backing it up.

 

 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, superozman said:

Wasn't asking you, however, I disagree.  He is making a claim, and I am looking for examples of "Many" that "Tell their flock", that validates the claim.  

 

I don't think i'm asking for anything that isn't pertinent to the conversation.  Additionally, i'm asking after a claim, not making claims and not backing it up.

You mean to tell me that you don't think that there is large scale preaching in American pulpits to defend their right to discriminate on religious grounds?

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Posted (edited)
47 minutes ago, superozman said:

 

Can you provide examples of "they tell their clock go vote for.....legal for businesses to discriminate...", as you assert so strongly here?

 

28 minutes ago, superozman said:

Wasn't asking you, however, I disagree.  He is making a claim, and I am looking for examples of "Many" that "Tell their flock", that validates the claim.  

 

I don't think i'm asking for anything that isn't pertinent to the conversation.  Additionally, i'm asking after a claim, not making claims and not backing it up.

 

 

It's a legit request, IMO. And a valid point. 

 

I freely admit that I have no firsthand experience of ordained ministers literally telling their congregation who to vote for. And I strongly doubt there are all that many cases of reporters catching them literally doing so. 

 

(Well, other than the much-publicized cases of famous ones like Pat Robertson and similar. And I'm not going to try to claim that they speak for Christianity.)

 

Its a completely unsupported assumption on my part. 

 

Based on nothing other than the undisputed fact that so many of their congregation vote that way. And cite their religion as their reason for doing so. 

 

But Ash made a valid point. The congregation does not always represent the views of their priests. 

Edited by Larry

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Posted (edited)

Well we can probably start with every single pastor/preacher/rabbi that shows up on Fox News as an "expert" in the constitution. Of course the key here is to understand that in most cases they will use the phrase "religious freedom" as a code word for the legal right to discriminate. 

Edited by NoCalMike
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I can tell you for a fact that the last time I was going to Trump the Pastor stressed the importance of voting bu never explicitly told people to vote for Obama.....but we all knew thats what he meant (and agreed) 

 

I know I can find people doing it for Trump on TV and on radio. Im sure the clips exist on the internet. I dont think its a Conservative thing at all tho. I think thats just a religious leader thing. Part of why I dont like it. 

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21 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Well we can probably start with every single pastor/preacher/rabbi that shows up on Fox News as an "expert" in the constitution. Of course the key here is to understand that in most cases they will use the phrase "religious freedom" as a code word for the legal right to discriminate. 

 

religious freedom includes the right to discriminate, now how far that extends beyond the church property is the real question.

Since religion naturally can legally be practiced outside a building or group it tends to bump into other rights.

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I know I can find people doing it for Trump on TV and on radio. Im sure the clips exist on the internet. I dont think its a Conservative thing at all tho. I think thats just a religious leader thing. Part of why I dont like it. 

 

Honestly, if the Churches agree to start paying taxes, I wouldn't care if they straight up tell people to vote for a specific candidate. Just can't have it both ways. 

Edited by NoCalMike
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1 hour ago, superozman said:

 

 

So my claim was many churches denounce discrimination.  You state that many pastors decry discrimination in most of its forms.  So we agree there I believe.  

 

You state that there are churches/pastors that voice the issue but typically only racism.  I'm not sure what churches need to do with the other 6 classes that they aren't doing, considering if you remove race and religion there are 9 other classes.  I'm not sure I like that claim how it's stated, but feel free to elaborate.

 

And I think we can agree that there is a divide in some churches between laity and clergy.  I've been in that situation.  However, in my area, i've seen more churches where the laity does not like the decision of clergy in being too judgmental and not being outward in discrimination.  So interested flip there from your area versus mine on that one.  

I think your regional experience is swaying your impression regarding the whole. While my pastoral experience was in the midwest, I did have a denominational perspective and many conversations with clergy and laity across the country. I'll also remind the readers that a clergy voice is RARELY as effective on counter cultural issues than they'd ever like to admit. As such I think you're giving too much weight to the few voices that are speaking out.

 

You're not sure what churches need to do in the other areas such as: National origin, Religious beliefs, Gender, or Pregnancy in terms of discrimination? Have you even turned on Faux News lately? Have you even seen the numbers of Evangelicals who directly oppose one or more of these not to mention sexual orientation and identity? All because what someone 2000 years ago some guy in a gown transcribed the words of his god, which later kinda got changed, and are now completely reinterpreted and or ignored? Oh yeah, I know God said we can eat shrimp now because of Peter's vision but that kinda goes against the idea that God's commandments are unchanging and eternal.

 

I'm curious about your denominational experience though, seriously, no judgments. I'd just like to see if I'm correct in your background.

 

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Pastors don't even have to come straight out and say "vote for......" it would seem rather simple to emphasize specific scripture or "stories" from the bible as a guiding principle for the voting booth.  I am not a church-goer so perhaps I am being obtuse here? 

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18 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

 

Honestly, if the Churches agree to start paying taxes, I wouldn't care if they straight up tell people to vote for a specific candidate. Just can't have it both ways. 

Some choose to do so. It's not a blanket thing that all of them get, it's a stipulation in their 501c3 non-profit status. Any pastor who is not covered by an IRS 501c3 legal status can advocate for any candidate they choose. Most don't because they want the benefit. However, there are ways around it because you'd have to be pretty stupid to not figure out which issues each candidate supports and which issues your pastor says you're going to hell if you support.

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Pastors don't even have to come straight out and say "vote for......" it would seem rather simple to emphasize specific scripture or "stories" from the bible as a guiding principle for the voting booth.  I am not a church-goer so perhaps I am being obtuse here? 

Oh they don't even have to be so indirect, they can just preach on the issues directly, and no, you're not being obtuse, it literally happens all the time and is a regular topic of discussion with clergy.

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5 hours ago, Rex Tomb said:

And, I'm sorry, but "White Christians" aren't out there doing things like stoning people for their sexual orientation, but you don't want to bring up Sharia law or the extremists in the Muslim faith.  Instead, you'd rather go after someone for refusing to bake a cake... give me a break.  

 

I'd argue that there is just as many, if not more, members of the Christian faith that do harm than there are members of Islam that are out stoning homosexuals.  If you don't think this is true, there are a few thousand choir boys you should talk to.

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