Moose & Squirrel v Boris & Natasha: what's the deal with the rooskies and trumpland?

[CurseReversed]

16 minutes ago, RedskinsFan44 said:

If there is no charge I would be surprised but i would not feel bad for suspecting Trump et al of tcollusion due to the already documented lies about Russian contacts, the altering of the Republican platform, and the lies about the Trump Tower meeting. There is plenty of reason to suspect him of it, there is a lot of circumstantial evidence. If he;'s innocent he's innocent. I disliked him before he ever ran based on his character, and I feel he has been a horrible person as President, so I won't be like, oh I was totally wrong about him if he is cleared of collusion. Still a rotten person, and even his supporters for the most part know that, and many acknowledge it. It's jus he's their rotten person.

 

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.  I understand why many people think that and why the evidence seems so overwhelming.  I could get into a debate as to the merits of that evidence but that was not my point here.  Maybe after the mueller report comes out we will have to take a closer look at what really happened. 

 

Keep in mind  how much resources were poured into this.  How many voices chanted it from every corner.  Many people were EXTREMELY invested in finding something and had all the resources to do so, if they cant come up with anything, after all this time, something stinks.   

 

We will see.   As of right now its all hypothetical.

[China]

FYI, you may want to read the mandate, it's not just for collusion but also "related matters" and he seems to have found a lot of those so far:

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download

 

 

[CurseReversed]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

 

1 hour ago, Larry said:

 

I already know for a 100 percent fact that there was. 

 

A week before Trump accepted the nomination, the biggest event of his campaign so far, the top three members of his campaign cleared room on their schedule so that the three of them could meet with a representative of the Russian government, for the specific purpose of negotiating what it would take to get the Russian government to help them with the election. 

 

Within hours after this meeting, Donald Trump personally announced that he was going to be getting lots of juicy dirt about Hillary Clinton. 

 

A week later, the Republican Party platform was modified, at the request of the Trump campaign, to remove calling for a response to an ongoing Russian military invasion. 

 

Two weeks later, emails stolen by the Russian government were released. 

 

This is collusion, and it's a quid pro quo, negotiated and delivered on. 

 

 

-***********************************************************************

(Well if thats the case this should be an open and shut case for mueller.  Nothing to worry about.)

***************************************************************

- - 

 

And you wanna know the next part?  "Collusion" isn't the only crime here. It was simply the place the GOP moved the goalposts to, when their first five lies fell apart. 

 

Whats illegal is (I'm typing from memory, so this may not be exact) is receiving anything of value from anyone outside the US. No coordination of any kind is required. 

 

(Me, I think that law is too broad. I think in reality, it needs to exclude the purchase of any item at fair market value. Buying a Toyota at list price is not receiving an illegal contribution from a foreign government). 

Goal posts are definitely being moved here.  but by whom?   There are have been two straight years of TRUMP RUSSIA COLLUSION being shouted from nearly every major news outlet. This narrative has been force fed to every person with eyes and ears.  There was a special council investigation that had a specific purpose.   It does not mean that there are not other crimes, it means that this was the crime that justified the investigation in the first place.  Is it not important if there turns out to be not a single person indicted for it?   This is not complicated.

Edited March 15, 2019 by CurseReversed

[visionary]

3 minutes ago, CurseReversed said:

Goal posts are definitely being moved here.  but by whom?   There are have been two straight years of TRUMP RUSSIA COLLUSION being shouted from nearly every major news outlet. This narrative has been force fed to every person with eyes and ears.  There was a special council investigation that had a specific purpose.   It does not mean that there are not other crimes, it means that this was the crime that justified the investigation in the first place.  Is it not important if there turns out to be not a single person indicted for it?   This is not complicated.

This did not happen.  The only ones shouting about 'collusion' were Trump and his cronies.   And it seems like you don't understand how investigations work.  

Edited March 15, 2019 by visionary

[CurseReversed]

35 minutes ago, China said:

FYI, you may want to read the mandate, it's not just for collusion but also "related matters" and he seems to have found a lot of those so far:

 

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download

 

 

How far can one interpret related matters?   Is a process crime a related matter? 

I am not going to argue the semantics with you.   I will just repeat my original question in a simpler form.

If nobody is indicted for collusion, what would be your response be?  How will it change your opinion?

 

will you claim that the investigation was justified and that the entire trump russia narrative was no bs, because a few people who arent trump get charged for related matters?

Edited March 15, 2019 by CurseReversed

[China]

2 minutes ago, CurseReversed said:

How far can one interpret related matters?   Is a process crime a related matter? 

I am not going to argue the semantics with you.   I will just repeat my original question in a simpler form.

If nobody is indicted for collusion, what would be your response be?  How will it change your opinion?

 

Are you really going to claim justification of the all of the trump russia nonsense because a few people who arent trump get charged for related matters?

 

I guess your definition of a few is different than mine.  30 entities have been charged so far, including 3 Russian entities:

 

Quote

The special counsel investigation has resulted in criminal counts against more than 30 people and three Russian entities

 

Link

[CurseReversed]

1 hour ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Why is it that the only person who keeps saying that Trump is under investigation is Trump?

 

Why are Trump and the GOP so keen on stifling / discrediting an investigation into Russia’s attacks on us during the 2016 election?

No, he wasn’t. No matter how many times Donnie says it.

 

 

 

why are you so keen on forgetting what the narrative has been for the past two years?

Please answer the question.   IF nobody is indicted for collusion will  you still believe it happened?

 

Even if russia is proven to have attacked during the election(it hasnt)  this is a separate issue from the POTUS being part of it.   A BIG distinction.

 

[CurseReversed]

15 minutes ago, visionary said:

This did not happen.  The only ones shouting about 'collusion' were Trump and his cronies.   And it seems like you don't understand how investigations work.  

Are you going to dismiss the collusion narrative so easily? Are you really going to pretend that the last two years did not exist?    We havent even got the verdict yet and your already trying to blame him for accusing himself.   haha. 

 

So if there is no collusion, no big deal?

 

 

 

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

14 minutes ago, CurseReversed said:

Even if russia is proven to have attacked during the election(it hasnt)

 

Ok. Thanks for letting us know to put you on ignore. Could have just opened with this and we could have saved a bunch of time. 

 

If you can’t get this simple verifiable and indisputable fact understood after 2+ years, you aren’t worth discussing anything Russia related with 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Momma There Goes That Man

[CurseReversed]

23 minutes ago, China said:

 

I guess your definition of a few is different than mine.  30 entities have been charged so far, including 3 Russian entities:

 

 

Link

none of these indictment have any link to trump or as far as I know anyone close to him.  

hence not related to collusion.   They might fall under the umbrella of the special investigation but they do not fall under the umbrella of my original statement or the hypothetical question I proposed in my original post reagrding collusion   if russians did anything illegal im all for them getting investigated. 

 

Just as a side not though.  None of them will be convicted IMO.  They are already in court and it doesnt look good for the prosecution.  Sorry I have link for this.

 

6 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Ok. Thanks for letting us know to put you on ignore. Could have just opened with this and we could have saved a bunch of time. 

 

If you can’t get this simple verifiable and indisputable fact understood after 2+ years, you aren’t worth discussing anything Russia related with 

 

There have been russians indicted but not convicted yet.  Thats all i was saying.   It has not been proven, but if they are guilty they should be convicted .

I heard they are fighting in court.  I dont have a link and I do not care to argue about this.   My question was about collusion.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by CurseReversed

[China]

1 minute ago, CurseReversed said:

none of these indictment have any link to trump or as far as I know anyone close to him.  

hence not related to collusion.   They might fall under the umbrella of the special investigation but they do not fall under the umbrella of my original statement or the hypothetical question I proposed in my original post reagrding collusion   if russians did anything illegal im all for them getting investigated. 

 

Just as a side not though.  None of them will be convicted IMO.  They are already in court and it doesnt look good for the prosecution.  Sorry I have link for this.

 

 

Pssst...Manafort was convicted and 7 others plead guilty.  You're delusional.

[visionary]

 

24 minutes ago, CurseReversed said:

Are you going to dismiss the collusion narrative so easily? Are you really going to pretend that the last two years did not exist?    We havent even got the verdict yet and your already trying to blame him for accusing himself.   haha. 

 

So if there is no collusion, no big deal?

I'm really confused as to where this nonsense is coming from....  

 

'Collusion' has always been a bull**** rallying cry from Trump people in an effort to distract from the success of the investigation and the many related crimes that people around Trump have been convicted for and crimes Trump has committed just from what he has said and done publicly and admitted to already.

[LadySkinsFan]

Even if some semblance of the real Mueller Report is published, it's under the control of AG Barr. And Trump's going to see it before anyone else, so what little we may see will be scrubbed clean. 

 

That's why I keep saying that I hope Mueller keeps thumb drives with the real report. After the Trump administration is concluded, we may finally see it. 

 

I have no hope that anything that the AG releases results in indictments of any Trump.

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

43 minutes ago, CurseReversed said:

Even if russia is proven to have attacked during the election(it hasnt)

Ok, we’re done here.

 

 

Hey guys, I am incapable of discerning reality from obvious fiction. I get ALL of my information from “news” that I know is going to tell me what I want to hear 100% of the time (90% of that time, I only found out what I wanted to hear after they told it to me). The people I believe are known liars and sure aren’t trying very hard to be clever about their current lies. They give my intelligence zero credit & I actually can’t blame them. My opinion is completely useless and for some reason, I feel the need to constantly broadcast all of this. Almost certainly because subconsciously, I don’t feel worthy of being loved.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Sacks 'n' Stuff

[CurseReversed]

I am going to bed now.  Even though we had disagreements I appreciate that many of you engaged me in a civil manner, even though most did not really address the actual question I proposed.

 

Trump russia collusion has been the primary narrative pushed from so many different sources it would be impossible to calculate.  THose words have literally been said over a million times in the last two years by every major news outlet. It was The primary purpose of the mueller investigation.  The majority of the posts in this thread has been focused on it. Its even  in the title of the the thread for gods sake.  

and to this point nobody has been indicted for it.  IF at the end of all this there is no collusion it is a big deal..   Yes there have been other crimes that have been involved but that was not relevant to my original question.

 

Who knows what will happen, maybe mueller has the goods.   If not there are some serious questions that need to be asked.   It will take some serious mental gymastics to avoid it.    It seems like people are already limbering up for the routine.  

 

I still would like to hear what people will think if there is no collusion and how they will process it.  I know that it might not be a pleasant scenario but lets be honest about what happened, if it occurs.

 

34 minutes ago, China said:

 

Pssst...Manafort was convicted and 7 others plead guilty.  You're delusional.

Again nobody has been indicted or convicted for anything to do with trump russia collusion.   My question still stands. 

[CurseReversed]

36 minutes ago, visionary said:

 

I'm really confused as to where this nonsense is coming from....  

 

'Collusion' has always been a bull**** rallying cry from Trump people in an effort to distract from the success of the investigation and the many related crimes that people around Trump have been convicted for and crimes Trump has committed just from what he has said and done publicly and admitted to already.

So you are saying that there was no investigation into collusion?   are you also implying that there was no collusion, trump made it up?  He accused himself of collusion... ok gotcha.   Mental gymnastics.

 

So if mueller ends the investigation with no collusion charges for anybody, all is well?

 

Remember if all these crimes that trump comitted are so obvious then mueller should have no problem making them stick. 

29 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Ok, we’re done here.

 

 

Hey guys, I am incapable of discerning reality from obvious fiction. I get ALL of my information from “news” that I know is going to tell me what I want to hear 100% of the time (90% of that time, I only found out what I wanted to hear after they told it to me). The people I believe are known liars and sure aren’t trying very hard to be clever about their current lies. They give my intelligence zero credit & I actually can’t blame them. My opinion is completely useless and for some reason, I feel the need to constantly broadcast all of this. Almost certainly because subconsciously, I don’t feel worthy of being loved.

 person attacks ok.    my question was simple what will you think if there is no collusion?  It has not been refuted. 

I will let mueller determine lies from fiction.   And news flash they are all known liars.

You still cant answer the question as i posed it .  

And yes until these 30 russians indicted by mueller are convicted that is NOT proven either.   But I am not even talking about that.  It would not suprised me if russians tried to meddle.  I am sure  a lot of countries tried to meddle.  But trump colluding with them is a whole different story. 

That is the major issue. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by CurseReversed

[CurseReversed]

34 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

Even if some semblance of the real Mueller Report is published, it's under the control of AG Barr. And Trump's going to see it before anyone else, so what little we may see will be scrubbed clean. 

 

That's why I keep saying that I hope Mueller keeps thumb drives with the real report. After the Trump administration is concluded, we may finally see it. 

 

I have no hope that anything that the AG releases results in indictments of any Trump.

Are you already claiming that the mueller report will be rigged?  sounds like conspiracy...

do you really think that mueller and his staff that have worked for 2 years on this are going to have proof of collusion and then just let trump or barr sweep it under the rug?

 

You are reaching here...   ANd it hasn't even come out yet!!    Come on trumps crimes were so obvious everyone knows hes in bed with the russians.  right?  SUrely mueller will have some proof right?  

 

If he doesnt somethings up.  Obviously you will not be convinced.  That is fine at least you answered my question.

Edited March 15, 2019 by CurseReversed

[Burgold]

There were Russian attacks unless you believe every US Intelligence Agency is a liar. Each has sworn this to be the case. There was collusion. You read Donald Trump Junior's emails (or should have) he laid out very plainly that he was open to meeting with Russia, greedy for the intel they had, then physically met with them to coordinate and plan. Moreover, if there was no relationship between the Trump Campaign and Russia why such a coordinated effort to lie about meeting with Russia on security forms. Why did every high ranking Trump official lie in exactly the same way and omit exactly the same things?

 

To believe there was no illegal relationship between Trump and Russia or that Trump's behavior towards Moscow has not been influenced requires such a benefit of the doubt that it would fill the entire Pacific Ocean. It's as likely to be true as Trump's statement that he never had any business dealings in Russia or that he fired Comey because President Trump thought that James Comey treated Hillary Clinton unfairly.

[CurseReversed]

One last thing I think should be referenced here as it seems like its in some dispute.theres some confusion on the issue.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Appointment_of_Special_Counsel_to_Investigate_Russian_Interference_with_the_2016_Presidential_Election_and_Related_Matters.pdf

 

THe first item specified as the purpose of the investigation is literally

 

"the investigation of any links or coordination between the russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of donald trump"

 

So lets not pretend its not important. 

 

also just for fun a link on the russian trolls that mueller indicted.  Guess what, they didnt just not show up like they were expected to. 

Some of them are taking him to court. 

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/04/mueller-russia-interference-election-case-delay-570627

 

There are better articles but they are all sources that you would consider fake news...the irony.   I picked one that sounded mainstream. 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by CurseReversed

[CurseReversed]

16 minutes ago, Burgold said:

There were Russian attacks unless you believe every US Intelligence Agency is a liar. Each has sworn this to be the case. There was collusion. You read Donald Trump Junior's emails (or should have) he laid out very plainly that he was open to meeting with Russia, greedy for the intel they had, then physically met with them to coordinate and plan. Moreover, if there was no relationship between the Trump Campaign and Russia why such a coordinated effort to lie about meeting with Russia on security forms. Why did every high ranking Trump official lie in exactly the same way and omit exactly the same things?

 

To believe there was no illegal relationship between Trump and Russia or that Trump's behavior towards Moscow has not been influenced requires such a benefit of the doubt that it would fill the entire Pacific Ocean. It's as likely to be true as Trump's statement that he never had any business dealings in Russia or that he fired Comey because President Trump thought that James Comey treated Hillary Clinton unfairly.

THey have lied before. The are professional liars, go figure.   But then again I am not disputing that there were russian attacks...
Again

My original question is a hypothetical based up on the possibility that nobody will be charged with collusion.  but people seem to only want to convince me of what they have already been convinced of.

 Im not here to debate that nor did i say that definitively that there would be none.  I asked  what if there was none.   Besides if it is so obvious then mueller will have no problem proving it right?

Everyone is so sure but seems to have no confidence in mueller...weird.

 

 I could debate the proof of collusion and maybe I will after the mueller report but for now the proof will be in the pudding.  WIll you answer the questions i posed in my first post?  

 

What if there is no proven collusion?

Edited March 15, 2019 by CurseReversed

[visionary]

Ugh, this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.  I'd advise folks not to waste their time from here on out.   

[Burgold]

1 minute ago, CurseReversed said:

 

 

What if there is no proven collusion?

Well, this is relatively easy. If no evidence is found then nothing proceeds.

 

The problem is that it's a pretty silly question. Again, all you have to do is read Donald Trump Junior's emails and know the meeting took place to know that collusion did happen.

We already have seen fruit from the Mueller investigation. There are multiple people in jail due to the Mueller investigation. Moreover, we have seen evidence with our own eyes that came directly from the emails of these people and from their own lips that there were crimes committed. They have plead guilty to crimes. So, the hypothetical, "What if the sky is not blue, water is not wet, and humans don't need oxygen to survive?" is a nonstarter for most of us. 

[Llevron]

4 hours ago, CurseReversed said:

Even if russia is proven to have attacked during the election(it hasnt)  this is a separate issue from the POTUS being part of it.   A BIG distinction.

 

Nevermind 

2 hours ago, visionary said:

Ugh, this conversation isn't going to go anywhere.  I'd advise folks not to waste their time from here on out.   

 

Yea you're right. 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Llevron

[RedskinsFan44]

4 hours ago, CurseReversed said:

 

"the investigation of any links or coordination between the russian government and individuals associated with the campaign of donald trump"

 

So lets not pretend its not important. 

 

 

Links that were denied have been discovered. But you will wave that away so I am done.

[Llevron]

If there is one thing that really grinds my gears its people who have enough intelligence to completely fabricate a story to suit their ****ed up mental need to be smarter than everyone but at the same time they are too stupid to read whats right in front of them. They are smart enough to make up some lie or completely ignore the facts but still stupid enough to believe that they can fool someone into doing the same. I legit dont know if people like this are confused or just too stupid to see the inaccuracies they project onto the people they argue with. I had to deal with dummies like that in highschool. It drove me crazy. 

 

Not directing that towards anyone in particular here. Not personal. Just came up when thinking about Trump supporters and this entire process we have been dealing with for the last 3 years.