Burgold Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 It could be, but LT owned everyone. Hall of Famers can have a nemesis and even a better. As good as Barry Sanders was... Pettibone always neutralized him completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 Just now, Burgold said: It could be, but LT owned everyone. Hall of Famers can have a nemesis and even a better. As good as Barry Sanders was... Pettibone always neutralized him completely. I'm not saying it should be the reason, but that it could be the reason. Taylor always said Jacoby gave him trouble. He might have said (not sure, but I thought I remembered it) that Jacoby was the best he played against. But again, I've heard it before, this idea that LT destroyed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted February 6, 2017 Share Posted February 6, 2017 No, I got you. I can see that being used as an excuse. It's just one that annoys me. Jacoby was great and was great for a long time. Not to mention as a UDFA... he's an incredible underdog story on top of everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Pro Football Hall of Fame Selection Committee Arizona Kent Somers, Arizona Republic Atlanta Darryl Ledbetter, Atlanta Journal - Constitution Baltimore Scott Garceau, WMAR-TV Buffalo Vic Carucci, Buffalo News Carolina Darin Gantt, ProFootballTalk Chicago Dan Pompei, Bleacher Report* Cincinnati Geoff Hobson, Bengals.com Cleveland Tony Grossi, ESPNCleveland.com/WKNR Radio Dallas Rick Gosselin, Dallas Morning News*# Denver Jeff Legwold, ESPN/ESPN.com* Detroit Dave Birkett, Detroit Free Press Green Bay Pete Dougherty, Green Bay Press-Gazette Houston John McClain, Houston Chronicle* Indianapolis Mike Chappell, RTV6 - ABC Affiliate Indianapolis Jacksonville Sam Kouvaris, WJXT-TV Kansas City Terez Paylor, Kansas City Star Los Angeles TBD Miami Armando Salguero, Miami Herald Minnesota Mark Craig, The Minneapolis Star-Tribune New England Ron Borges, Boston Herald* New Orleans Jeff Duncan, Times-Picayune New York (Giants) Bob Glauber, Newsday New York (Jets) Gary Myers, New York Daily News Oakland Frank Cooney, The Sports Xchange* Philadelphia Paul Domowitch, Philadelphia Daily News Pittsburgh Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette San Diego Kevin Acee, San Diego Union Tribune San Francisco Matt Maiocco, CSNBayArea.com Seattle Mike Sando, ESPN.com Tampa Bay Ira Kaufman, JoeBucsFan.com Tennessee David Climer, The Tennessean Washington David Elfin, DavidElfinOnSports.com PFWA Mary Kay Cabot, The (Cleveland) Plain Dealer At Large Howard Balzer, The Sports Xchange# At Large Jarrett Bell, USA Today# At Large John Clayton, ESPN# At Large Jason Cole, BleacherReport.com At Large John Czarnecki, FOXSports.com* At Large Dan Fouts, CBS (Hall of Famer) At Large Clark Judge, Talk of Fame Network and Yahoo Sports Radio# At Large Peter King, Sports Illustrated# At Large James Lofton, Westwood One (Hall of Famer) At Large Ira Miller, The Sports Xchange* At Large Sal Paolantonio, ESPN# At Large Vito Stellino, Florida Times Union At Large Jim Trotter, ESPN# At Large Charean Williams, Ft. Worth Star Telegram# At Large Barry Wilner, Associated Press Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 now which one of you can write the most eloquent defense for induction into the HoF of Joseph Erwin (And yesterday, wearing a camouflage outfit, John Riggins was asked to provide a capsule description of the Hogs he loves to run behind. ''Joe Jacoby,'' he said, ''Interstate 66, go West, young man, go West") Jacoby??...this is DC.....I know some of you are lawyers....some young Ciceros n chit.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 http://www.nytimes.com/1984/01/19/sports/sports-of-the-times-hogs-in-three-piece-suits.html#h[TFpoR,32,33] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I posted on this kind of heavily over at CPND. The thing I really noticed that was fascinating was the disparity between the dynasties of 1981-1995, and the dynasties of 1960-1983. Basically, the Raiders (13), Packers (10), and Steelers (9) of the latter era got a gazillion guys in, double digits all. Many of them patently absurd (Hornung, for instance, was considered a disappointment after he was such a monster at Notre Dame, but still got in largely on his college exploits, even the sports betting temporary ban couldn't keep him out), the Raiders got an absolute ton of guys from their late sixties incarnation, and from their late seventies incarnation (some of whom were a part of the 80's, while others weren't a part of the 70's), and the Steelers got 9, count them, NINE different starters from their '74-'79 incarnation, 9 starters. Nine. I can't say that enough because compare that to Shula's Dolphins, I think 6, the Vikes had 5 I think, the Cowboys that were a whisker away from the Steelers, got only I believe 6 or 7 guys from the generation that faced off with Pittsburgh in X and XIII, and Denver in XII (another 4 came in through earlier incarnations circa V and VI, and in two cases, built most of their CV while playing for other teams). But even worse is checking out how disrespected the dynasties of the 80's and early 90's are, those dynasties were: SF: '81-'95 5 guys Montana Young Rice Lott Fred Dean (SF and SD) Charles Haley (SF and Dallas) NYG '84-'90 Lawrence Taylor Harry Carson Chicago '83-'88 Walter Payton Michael Singletary Richard Dent Dan Hampton Dallas 1992-1995 Troy Aikman Larry Allen Emmitt Smith Michael Irvin Charles Haley (SF/Dallas) Buffalo: 1989-1994 Bruce Smith Jim Kelly Thurman Thomas Andre Reed James Lofton (Packers/Raiders/Bills) Washington: 1981-1992 Darrell Green Art Monk John Riggins Russ Grimm When you look at it this way it becomes fairly clear that nearly everyone is getting hosed from the 80's and early 90's. Comparing these teams, which for the most part were at least as competitive, and in my view, more competitive (in the NFC), then in any era I can think of, it's hard not to feel as if writers simply overrate the hell of the players from the original NFL Films, John Facenda era and underrate the more modern players unless they were flashy and camera ready, or great for a quote or story. I did some digging to try and find if teams had guys getting short shrift and it didn't take too long, the bears had two lineman that looked hall worthy, and one or two guys on defense that got overlooked, the cowboys had 2 or 3 lineman+Woodson,the niners had Randy Cross, Roger Craig and a bittersweet moment for Eric Wright who might have been headed to the Hall if he hadn't been derailed by injury, the Giants had Carl Banks and a lot of near misses for me in guys like Morris, Bavaro, and Simms who just don't quite have the goods, I haven't looked hard enough at the Bills, in terms of the redskins, it's easy to me: Gary Clark: if you're gonna put TD in there, you've got to consider Clark who was a dominant playoff performer, big game performer, and consistently made everyone's top 5 WR's in that 1985-1992 era. Charles Mann: Dominating strong side end who never was flashy, but also was a master class at stuffing the run and providing consistently excellent pass rush. Joe Jacoby: five years of honors as a top LT before he shifted to the right side with the arrival of Lachey. There's no dishonor in getting rag dolled by a coked up LT, everybody got rag dolled by him. Jim Lachey: again, with TD and Warner getting a free pass, the argument that Lachey doesn't belong because of the short era is flushed down the toilet. Lachey was a top LT, and at times THE top LT in the NFL from 1985-1992. Much better, much consistently better than Warner was in his erratic career, or TD was in his Sayers like short career which has since lost the bloom of the rose with 8, count them 8, non-1st round RB's blowing up for 1,000+ yards in the system since he tore his ACL (including several day 3 guys with no plaudits to speak of, and other guys that were flat out scrubs like Droughns). Again, for me, the issue isn't these annoying Cowboys teams that seemingly get someone in every year, it's actually the disparity between the teams of the 60's and 70's, as compared to the teams of the eighties and nineties. Part of that is simply time, but not all of it, as the bulk of the players of those great Niners, Bears, Giants, Redskins and even Cowboys teams retired 20-30 years ago, they should have long since been busting through the doors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 Dallas and SF each had Deion Sanders as well. I always thought Clark should go in, because his numbers are impressive for a guy who got a late start after starting in the USFL. Also, the supposed reason that Monk was kept out was that Clark was the real threat that opened things up for Monk. If he was and still put up those numbers, how is he not a HOF player? Jacoby absolutely. A case for Lachey easily can be made. The biggest snub though, imo, is Bobby Beathard. Bill Polian being in and not Bobby is beyond laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 3 hours ago, Rufus T Firefly said: Dallas and SF each had Deion Sanders as well. I always thought Clark should go in, because his numbers are impressive for a guy who got a late start after starting in the USFL. Also, the supposed reason that Monk was kept out was that Clark was the real threat that opened things up for Monk. If he was and still put up those numbers, how is he not a HOF player? Jacoby absolutely. A case for Lachey easily can be made. The biggest snub though, imo, is Bobby Beathard. Bill Polian being in and not Bobby is beyond laughable. absolutely...i thought Bethard was in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanskins Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 4 hours ago, The Consigliere said: the bulk of the players of those great Niners, Bears, Giants, Redskins and even Cowboys teams retired 20-30 years ago, they should have long since been busting through the doors. how can they already be a "bygone" era...but it seems to be...very strange...those were best 1/3 of the entire nfl history...a third of guys should be fro that era... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 It's just really strange looking at it, seeing that drop, from consistently about 7-13 players for those great powers of the sixties and seventies (and I didn't check the Colts, who knows how many they got during the Unitas era), and then to peer at the 1980-1995 time period when the NFC was dominant with literally 5 different teams that could have easily pounded these patriot super bowl winners into the ground in any of those super bowls (Niners, Giants, Bears,Cowboys, and of course, the Redskins). These journalists really need to remember that the '82 Redskins had to beat Landry's cowboys, and Shula's Dolphins, the '84 Niners had to beat Parcells Giants, and the '85 Bears (just a few short months before they'd prove to be the most dominating defense ever), Marino's best year as a Dolphin under Shula a few months before they found out just how freaking good they were, the Bears would demolish the Giants who'd demolished the niners, and then would crush the Patriots who upset the Dolphins, in '86 the Giants would have to beat the Niners, which they did 49-3, and Redskins 3 times, a Redskins team that beat the Bears by double digits IN CHICAGO in the playoffs, when Chicago was coming off a record streak in which they'd gone 32-3 between September 1985, and kickoff in that game in January 1987. In '87 the Bears would repeat that accomplishment beating Chicago in Chicago in a frozen game which would be Payton's last, before beating Minnesota, and then pounding Elway into submission. The Niners would nearly complete a 3peat, going 39-5 from midway through the '88 season when they started their streak with a butt kicking of us on MNF, until they had the misfortune to fumble the ball away as they were running out the clock against the Giants with the lead, and 2 minutes and change left (and first down), that Giants team, 14-3 at the time, would go on to win that game and finish 16-3 to end their dynasty, before the Redskins then went on for one last stab at glory going 17-1 (and a second loss in a game where they rested their starters), and demolishing the Bills along the way. Then it was the Cowboys turn, and they'd go 59-16 over the following 4 years, 2 of the losses during Emmitt's notorious 1993 hold out. To me, you look at that era, in most particular that era from around 1981-1995, you have an era in which for the most part, the Bears, Cowboys, Giants, Redskins, and Niners had to find a way to beat a true dynasty, or rising potential dynasty every single year, and sometimes 2 or 3, just to make the super bowl, let alone win it. Compare that to what the Broncos, Patriots,Ravens, Rams, and Bucs teams of the turn of the century. No contest. More interesting to look at the sixties and seventies. Seems like in the sixties the Packers had to worry about Dallas, LA and the Colts and not much else. The AFL seemed to be about Kansas City, Oakland, and the Jets. By the seventies the NFC evolved from Dallas, Minnesota and SF, to Dallas, LA, Washington and Minnesota (and occasionally St. Louis). Personally, I wasn't around to see it, but there's nothing I can see in that NFC that comes close to comparing to the NFC of the eighties and the first half of the nineties, instead, interestingly, it looks remarkably like the AFC circa 1984-1995, where there was usually one great team, and then a bunch of teams that just couldn't play with them, in this case, it was either the cowboys or vikes most years). The AFC did look quite a bit more like that NFC of the 80's/90's with Miami, and Oakland, and then Pittsburgh battling out (before Miami faded), with also rans like Houston, and Denver popping up from time to time. Not sure what to think, but honestly, when I consider what I saw as a kid growing up in the eighties, and in high school and college in the nineties, I see nothing to suggest that there were more HOF quality players on those teams, than the NFC greats of the 80's and 90's and it definitely bothers me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexa Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 They need to get former coaches and players voting. Having media people do it has turned it into the clown show that it currently is.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsGuy Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 On 2/9/2017 at 0:58 AM, Rufus T Firefly said: always thought Clark should go in, because his numbers are impressive for a guy who got a late start after starting in the USFL. Also, the supposed reason that Monk was kept out was that Clark was the real threat that opened things up for Monk. If he was and still put up those numbers, how is he not a HOF player? Actually, it really isn't a late start because you would add in Clark's USFL numbers to his NFL numbers. Remember, it is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL Hall of Fame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 8 minutes ago, SkinsGuy said: Actually, it really isn't a late start because you would add in Clark's USFL numbers to his NFL numbers. Remember, it is the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not the NFL Hall of Fame. Yeah it is, because his career numbers don't reflect his USFL stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsGuy Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, Rufus T Firefly said: Yeah it is, because his career numbers don't reflect his USFL stats. Well most websites are just going to put up his NFL stats, but if he were to be considered for the Hall, his USFL stats would be added. They also consider stats for NFL Europe as well as the Canadian Football League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus T Firefly Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 12 minutes ago, SkinsGuy said: Well most websites are just going to put up his NFL stats, but if he were to be considered for the Hall, his USFL stats would be added. They also consider stats for NFL Europe as well as the Canadian Football League. You can say that all you want, but the voters don't just consider your USFL stats as anywhere near equal to NFL numbers. They just don't. Regardless, my main point int eh first place is that his career numbers and stays would likely have been much better if he had joined the Redskins right out of college, rather than two years later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsGuy Posted February 14, 2017 Author Share Posted February 14, 2017 Just now, Rufus T Firefly said: You can say that all you want, but the voters don't just consider your USFL stats as anywhere near equal to NFL numbers. They just don't. Regardless, my main point int eh first place is that his career numbers and stays would likely have been much better if he had joined the Redskins right out of college, rather than two years later. I don't know how much they consider them or not. I doubt numbers for any player really considered because if they were, Clark would be in already. Just a bunch of sports writers with agendas. I was just saying his USFL numbers would be added, even if they weren't considered by the voters. Just like Warren Moon's CFL days were added when he was inducted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Consigliere Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Certainly can put it on as an addendum if nothing else. It is interesting peering through the stats and seeing like 70-75% of the league leaders didn't do much of anything in the NFL, in many instances, it was the lesser known guys who killed it (although Sanders had a 100+ reception season in '84). Interesting, I never realized we traded a 3rd round pick for Ricky Sanders rights, and Beathard was apparently so determined to get it done, he made sure he tied up the deal before the Patriots could actually work him out (he was a top pick in the USFL Supplemental Draft in '84), and we got Gary Clark at the tail end of round 2 (I kinda remembered that). Fascinating to see the picks that were made, and totally blown by teams. A lot of hit and miss, more than a typical draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkB452 Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 1984 USFL Supplemental draft: http://www.drafthistory.com/supplemental/supplemental-1984.html Our first pick never played for us, but his brother did..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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