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Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem


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7 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 The real test of freedom is if you can defend what you don't agree with.

 

7 hours ago, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Says you

 

To me, the real test of freedom is putting yourself out there to protect those who's freedom ( in every sense of the word) is in question.

 

It may seem contradictory, but I think you are both right or that both can be true. 

 

Freedom does demand vigilance and it is important to be able to march, fight, and speak out for it against those who would do harm, diminish, or eliminate our rights or the rights of others. On the other hand, Freedom also requires that you hold your nose at times in tolerance of how others celebrate their beliefs.

 

There is, however, a line and it's an important one. I don't think it's an arbitrary one either. I don't think it's a line that every individual ought to choose for themselves.

Edited by Burgold
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Freedom of speech means that the government isn't allowed to restrict speech, not that every Tom, Dick, and Harry has to defend the hate speech of White supremacists.  White supremacists aren't in any danger of having their speech restricted by this government.

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10 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

...perhaps you all should review my posting history.  I am not TWA.

 

 

10 hours ago, twa said:

...some people have no class.

 

These two posts back to back. The irony is soooooo sweet. :-D

 

10 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Reminds me of Rogue One when Saw asks her if she enjoys living under imperial flags and she responds along the lines of "its not a problem if you don't look up" 

 

basically choosing to ignore the realities that you live in because confronting and accepting them is annoying or inconvenient or difficult.   

Or because they rarely affect you or your loved ones.

 

6 hours ago, Destino said:

The lesson here is that NFL players need a stronger union.  

 

We can argue principles and rights all day, and we should, but power always gets the last word.  The owners can black ball players and make up patriotism rules as they go, because no one can do a thing about it.  

The players have more power than they realize. If Dak, Zeke and Dez and other key starters around the league, especially the ones that have fat contracts all decided they have sore hammies for a while, the owners would get it pretty quickly. At some point, they'd twist arms and force them back on the field, but then they can't force them not to play at half speed. See where I'm going with this?

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1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Freedom of speech means that the government isn't allowed to restrict speech, not that every Tom, Dick, and Harry has to defend the hate speech of White supremacists.  White supremacists aren't in any danger of having their speech restricted by this government.

 

Agreed, freedom of speech is always just thrown around and misapplied.

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I was officiating a middle school game last Thursday and half the team took a knee and half the fans in the stands of the home team didn't stand. First time I recall seeing it this season. 

 

I think any time someone complains about citizens kneeling the response should be talking about both why the protest is taking place and how we can make progress in that area which would end people kneeling during the anthem. I think those complaining should also stop trying to tell others what their actions mean. This whole "they are being disrespectful to the flag/country" is only your view and not necessarily the view of the protester. They may believe that by taking a stand against the inequalities in our nation that they are in fact being more respectful to the country than if they stayed quiet. 

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Hersh said:

I was officiating a middle school game last Thursday and half the team took a knee and half the fans in the stands of the home team didn't stand. First time I recall seeing it this season. 

 

I think any time someone complains about citizens kneeling the response should be talking about both why the protest is taking place and how we can make progress in that area which would end people kneeling during the anthem. I think those complaining should also stop trying to tell others what their actions mean. This whole "they are being disrespectful to the flag/country" is only your view and not necessarily the view of the protester. They may believe that by taking a stand against the inequalities in our nation that they are in fact being more respectful to the country than if they stayed quiet. 

 

 

 

 

 

Quick question, and PLEASE don't feel like you have to answer this...without getting into specifics as to which game you were officiating, what county was it in?

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9 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

Quick question, and PLEASE don't feel like you have to answer this...without getting into specifics as to which game you were officiating, what county was it in?

 

I was in Raleigh in Wake county 

for the game. 

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Threatening to bench players who kneel during the anthem is vile.  We've always known it, but worth reiterating that Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder are human garbage.

 

I want to see more white players kneeling in support of their black teammates and I want to see their damn union protecting the players from the greed and exploitation of the owners for once.  I would love to see Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, and Drew Brees take a knee.

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6 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Threatening to bench players who kneel during the anthem is vile.  We've always known it, but worth reiterating that Jerry Jones and Dan Snyder are human garbage.

 

I want to see more white players kneeling in support of their black teammates and I want to see their damn union protecting the players from the greed and exploitation of the owners for once.  I would love to see Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, and Drew Brees take a knee.

 

I think the highest profile white player is Travis Kelce, so far anyway

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28 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

I want to see more white players kneeling in support of their black teammates and I want to see their damn union protecting the players from the greed and exploitation of the owners for once.  I would love to see Aaron Rodgers, Matt Ryan, and Drew Brees take a knee.

 

Some of the most sponsored athletes in football. 

 

So you'll have to ask Verizon/Reebok/Gatorade/Adidas/State Farm/Ford if its ok. :)

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3 hours ago, skinfan2k said:

Synder reportedly told all the players they must stand for the anthem.  This is going to go well

 

Feel like the majority of our players are chumps and will do what the boss says. None of those dudes are giving up millions to get the Kap treatment. That's how supremacy works. 

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35 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Feel like the majority of our players are chumps and will do what the boss says. None of those dudes are giving up millions to get the Kap treatment. That's how supremacy works. 

 

The boss doesn't own you, now you might let your paycheck. 

:)

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58 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Feel like the majority of our players are chumps and will do what the boss says. None of those dudes are giving up millions to get the Kap treatment. That's how supremacy works. 

 

Goes back to the Donald Sterling mess.  Dudes can claim ignorance or play the victim card, but they WILLFULLY signed on to play under Sterling.  As long as the paychecks are coming in, folks can tolerate a lot or turn a blind eye to a lot of indiscretions. 

 

These guys are in a tough spot...this is their livelihood and Jones, amongst others, do sign their checks.  I guarantee a lot of these players may honestly feel supportive of the protests but are literally scared to say/do anything because they want to keep the food on their tables.  Trust me, I get it.  It's easy to say who should do this/that from the side, but I'm not the one who has my paycheck on the line if I do otherwise. 

 

I think it's great that teams like the 49ers are supportive of their players being socially conscious/aware, but others around the league are not afforded that opportunity...even while supposedly protected by your 1st amendment rights. 

 

Speaking of which, in the NHL, JT Brown, who is one of 30 or so black players in the league has decided to protest during the anthem.  I give him SO much credit for taking a stance.  He's literally on an island.  He's making a statement amongst a sea of folks who look nothing like him.  The next time a lot of these guys in the NBA/NFL decide to link arms instead of doing what they actually feel, I really hope they are made aware of what JT Brown is doing in the NHL.  I'm obviously a Caps fan, but there is no other player in the league who has my full support like JT Brown does right now. 

 

Kap started something big...and not to downplay what he did (because he's obviously being blackballed,) but I really think it's easier to protest when you have an overwhelmingly amount of co-workers who at least look like you.  JT Brown, not so much.  If you understand why these protests are happening and you're supportive, PLEASE give JT Brown a shout on twitter or something along those lines to let him know.  Who knows if he'll actually read what you send, but at least you're showing that you've got his back. 

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16 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

Kap started something big...and not to downplay what he did (because he's obviously being blackballed,) but I really think it's easier to protest when you have an overwhelmingly amount of co-workers who at least look like you.  JT Brown, not so much.  If you understand why these protests are happening and you're supportive, PLEASE give JT Brown a shout on twitter or something along those lines to let him know.  Who knows if he'll actually read what you send, but at least you're showing that you've got his back. 

 

Bruce Maxwell on the Oakland Athletics. he's a fringe major-leaguer to begin with and he did it anyway

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3 hours ago, The Sisko said:

The players have more power than they realize. If Dak, Zeke and Dez and other key starters around the league, especially the ones that have fat contracts all decided they have sore hammies for a while, the owners would get it pretty quickly. At some point, they'd twist arms and force them back on the field, but then they can't force them not to play at half speed. See where I'm going with this?

I have no doubt NFL owners collude and any player that becomes a "distraction" earns a lot less, if they are signed at all.  If players intentionally played horribly, they'd give cover for owners to black ball them.  Those fat contracts aren't guaranteed, and any hint of faking injuries would end up with teams suing to get back bonuses.  

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25 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

Goes back to the Donald Sterling mess.  Dudes can claim ignorance or play the victim card, but they WILLFULLY signed on to play under Sterling.  As long as the paychecks are coming in, folks can tolerate a lot or turn a blind eye to a lot of indiscretions. 

 

These guys are in a tough spot...this is their livelihood and Jones, amongst others, do sign their checks.  I guarantee a lot of these players may honestly feel supportive of the protests but are literally scared to say/do anything because they want to keep the food on their tables.  Trust me, I get it.  It's easy to say who should do this/that from the side, but I'm not the one who has my paycheck on the line if I do otherwise. 

 

I think it's great that teams like the 49ers are supportive of their players being socially conscious/aware, but others around the league are not afforded that opportunity...even while supposedly protected by your 1st amendment rights. 

 

 

its not really a first amendment issue though (if i'm reading you correctly). they have a right to protest, but doing so while working for a private (which is debatable) company isnt protected if your employer doesnt allow it. heres an article about it. http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/opinions/first-amendment-football-protest-callan-opinion/index.html

 

agree with you that some folks are in a tough position if they want to be supportive, but if its me, i have to take care of my family- i'd definitely find ways to be supportive outside of kneeling if my employer didnt allow it. 

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On 10/8/2017 at 12:41 PM, Mr. Sinister said:

 

Nope. I'll proceed.

 

In many other countries, you stand for an anthem because you do as you're told. Here, it is subjective, dependent on the situation. Sometimes it's to honor fallen soldiers. Sometimes it's because you want to honor civil rights leaders. Sometimes you want to honor victims of tragedies.

 

Many times it's because you are being asked to honor a country that does not honor its own values and declarations, and on a daily basis, shows that despite whatever "Pride" people have, this country is not proud of us, as a whole.

 

I love this country. Because of that, I want it to be better. I want it to uphold it's values, and purge itself of an infestation that has corrupted  it at every level.

 

These players want to do the same. They respect what this country is SUPPOSED to stand for. They respect what that flag is SUPPOSED to stand for. And they know that neither is is happening right now, and they want to bring attention to that. Has nothing to do with anything BUT that. And it's a further testament to the work that needs to be done that...... Some, simply are incapable, or do not want to understand, and therefore do not want this country to move forward and realize its true potential.

 

Now, fulfill my expectation

 

You should post in these threads more. Just sayin'. 

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14 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

 

perhaps you all should review my posting history.  I am not TWA.

  

 

You know he can see this, right?

 

You know how sensitive people with Reverse Spartacus Syndrome can be?

 

A little compassion, please.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

  

 

You know he can see this, right?

 

You know how sensitive people with Reverse Spartacus Syndrome can be?

 

A little compassion, please.

 

 

I know.  I didnt mean it as a insult.  Just that he and I have vastly differing opinions and ..........tactics.

Was I out of line?

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7 minutes ago, grego said:

 

its not really a first amendment issue though (if i'm reading you correctly). they have a right to protest, but doing so while working for a private (which is debatable) company isnt protected if your employer doesnt allow it. heres an article about it. http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/26/opinions/first-amendment-football-protest-callan-opinion/index.html

 

agree with you that some folks are in a tough position if they want to be supportive, but if its me, i have to take care of my family- i'd definitely find ways to be supportive outside of kneeling if my employer didnt allow it. 

 

Is the employer the NFL or the Cowboys?...seems to be a slippery slope as some teams are supportive of player activism and others are against it.  Lines have been blurred.

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42 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

Is the employer the NFL or the Cowboys?...seems to be a slippery slope as some teams are supportive of player activism and others are against it.  Lines have been blurred.

Interesting point.  I would argue they work for both.  It is like working for ES.  You would have to follow their rules.  But ES is owned by the Redskins.  So you have to follow their rules also.

 

Disclaimer: This is just a blind guess.

Edited by TheGreatBuzz
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Sorry I'm just getting to this now but I wanted to explain myself a little further.

 

To those who were saying I was comparing players kneeling to white supremacists, I guess you are right.  But please allow me to explain before you write it off.

 

My goal was to point out that it is easy to defend rights when you agree with them but difficult to defend them when you don't agree.  Now I believe it is important to defend them even when you don't agree with them, in fact one could argue it is MORE important to defend the unpopular positions.  Now to show this I needed a position that pretty much everyone disagrees with.  I couldn't use pro-gun, pro-life, affirmative action, or a number of other hot button topics because we have people on both sides of each argument here.  And when I said "do you defend the right of X group" a person could say yes simply because they agree with whatever position.  I used white supremacists because I HOPE there is no one on this board who can look at their position and say "yea, I agree with what they say".  THAT is why I used them to compare to the NFL players.  I was not drawing any other similarity other than they both exercising their 1st amendment rights.j

While I don't like what the players are doing, I think they are bringing up a topic that needs to be discussed.  I can look at their position and say "yea they have some good points."  I CANNOT look at the white supremacists positions and say that about anything they stand for.  I do not agree with, support, advocate, or anything else any of their positions.

 

So to highlight, this was an example about ONLY free speech.  The players have some good points and the white supremacists are a brown stain on the underwear of our society.  Free speech was their ONLY similarity.

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