Burgold

Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

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Yeah. Complaining is actually an important part of inducing change, but complaining is only a short term positive. Once the complaint has been registered then there is a time for action. Unfortunately, too often we end up in a cycle of complaint and blame these days. Happens with too many problems.

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2 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

Love to see how patriotic he is when he gets that ass impeached.

Expat Donald Trump has a nice ring to it. 

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https://twitter.com/john_hudson/status/912445583964741633

Quote

White House chief of staff John Kelly was not pleased with the fight that erupted over the weekend between President Donald Trump and National Football League players who protest by kneeling during the national anthem, two administration officials told CNN. 

 

Trump has been on a three-day crusade since he first commented on the protests at a rally in Alabama Friday, when he said that coaches should get the "son of a ****" off the field if the player continued to kneel.

 

His chief of staff, a lifelong Marine who was brought in to introduce order into the West Wing, is attuned to race issues and voiced his concern about the matter, one official said. 

 

In a brief interview Monday evening, Kelly told CNN he is "appalled" by what he sees as a lack of respect for the flag and national anthem.

 

Edited by visionary

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28 minutes ago, Bang said:

But, a couple of things.

Bang, I mostly agree with the list you have there,

 

The differences I have are small comparatively and what makes people different.  And I can agree to disagree and be okay that we all may have different positions.

Earlier I wasn't calling for a boycott.  If it read that way, then let me clear that up.  I was wondering what your position on boycotts in general were, and you laid that out.  I actually agree with you and hold the same stance.

 

38 minutes ago, Bang said:

4. i think the NFL has done the right thing by leaving it up to a personal decision and to the teams. for one, they have a large base of talent that is African American. Their talent is what makes the league so great to watch. The NFL has nothing to gain by alienating their employees over this.  For another, they are a large part of the 'fabric of America".. we love our sports and we love football more than most. So i think the league can afford to not blink at boycott threats, and in the end will come out stronger as a result. 

 

I can understand your thought process and position.  My real question for the league is, does this set up a precedent for other forms of protest?  It seems to fly in the face of everything they have been doing to mold the product of what the public consumes.

 

We saw them deny a team the ability to put a patch on their uniforms for 1 game in support of ?police/military(can't exactly remember)?  Is this any different?  What restrictions will be come out later?  Where do they draw the line?  I don't even think it inappropriate that they do draw a line.

 

And, that was the thoughtful, well spoken response I am used to seeing from you. 

-Dav87sc

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Many of the same people (not all) who get all up in arms about people not standing during the anthem being, claiming it is disrespecting our troops, never seem to get up in arms over those troops being sent into pointless wars and being killed 

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I’m a US Army veteran, I’m not offended. Conservatives need to stop assuming they speak for all veterans or assuming that veterans are some monolithic group that all suffer from Conservative group think.

 

That said, does anyone have a non-Snopes page regarding the supposed Jerry Jones statement from last year?

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20 minutes ago, elkabong82 said:

Many of the same people (not all) who get all up in arms about people not standing during the anthem being, claiming it is disrespecting our troops, never seem to get up in arms over those troops being sent into pointless wars and being killed 

Maybe its because we don't see them as pointless.

 

So now that we have the country's (and the world probably) attention, are we actually going to talk about the police treatment of blacks and debate solutions or are we going to keep dumping on Trump and the anti-protesters.

 

Edit:  i meant that as a collective we as a nation, not just we here in this thread.

Edited by TheGreatBuzz

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Some little known facts about Francis Scott Key. 

 

From the seldom heard 3rd verse of the Star Spangle Banner. 

 

"No refuge could save the hireling or slave
From the terror of flight and the gloom of the grave,
And the Star Bangled Banner...," 

 

Francis Scott Key was a slave-holding lawyer from Maryland. His family owned a plantation, were rich and powerful with many slaves. He is quoted as saying that, "Africans in America were, 'a distinct and inferior race of people, which all experience proves to be the greatest evil that afflicts a community.'" (Smithsonian Magazine 7/1/16)

 

As District Attorney of New York, Key prosecuted abolitionists including a doctor for having abolitionist pamphlets in his house. 

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I don’t think about veterans or the military when listening to the anthem.  If anything I think of revolutionary veterans.  Mostly I’m thinking, “****, I wish this game would start already.  I’m bored.”

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13 minutes ago, LadySkinsFan said:

"No refuge could save the hireling or slave
From the terror of flight and the gloom of the grave,
And the Star Bangled Banner...,"

I looked up and read the whole thing the other day when Trump started this up.  The "terror of flight" part signified the other points you made about the abolitionist movement.

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Since we are now bringing up Francis Scott Key and pointing out a third verse which is being thrown out to try and justify these actions, how about pointing out the actions, the REAL actions behind the song!  Point out how many Americans DIED WHILE KEEPING THE Flag on Ft Henry up.  Point out the fact the ONLY thing keeping that flag standing were the bodies of those DEAD AMERICANS ensuring that flag NEVER touched the ground!  How about the reality of why that flag should NEVER touch the ground!  Our National Anthem and that Flag mean something, to many, it means EVERYTHING!  

 

For some of us (it is 8am where I am at, 13 miles from N Korea), it represents why we do what we do!  For many of us, we have lost friends, family members fighting these "pointless wars" and defending this great Nation!  I have lost enough friends in theses wars, but they aren't pointless, they are what we are asked to do from our Country!  That National Anthem and the flag I and EVERY service member wear on our Right shoulder means everything to us, it is why we do what we do!

 

Am I offended at the disrespect of our flag and National Anthem,  HELL yes, and if it were up to me, you don't like the Anthem and the flag, let me know, I can pick you up from airport in Seoul and personally take you to another country just 13 miles North of me!  Now, that being said, you have the right to protest, you have the right to disrespect that flag and even though I don't like it and it does offend me, it is your right to do so and I support it.  Doesn't mean I like it.

 

You can dislike, even hate this President, but that National Anthem and flag are bigger than him or any other President who has sat in that office! 

17 minutes ago, Springfield said:

I don’t think about veterans or the military when listening to the anthem.  If anything I think of revolutionary veterans.  Mostly I’m thinking, “****, I wish this game would start already.  I’m bored.”

That is a sad thing to hear!  

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Is it not crystal clear to NFL players that protesting  by disrespecting the anthem and flag would be polarizing and unpopular?  Do the marginal players among the protestors  think they will escape punishment by the owners if ratings go down and dollars are lost?  Surely not.  They do know they're in a workplace environment, right?

 

To me, the protest is fine and well within their rights but the method they chose to express it is ill-advised  and naive at best.

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10 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

Since we are now bringing up Francis Scott Key and pointing out a third verse which is being thrown out to try and justify these actions, how about pointing out the actions, the REAL actions behind the song!  Point out how many Americans DIED WHILE KEEPING THE Flag on Ft Henry up.  Point out the fact the ONLY thing keeping that flag standing were the bodies of those DEAD AMERICANS ensuring that flag NEVER touched the ground!  How about the reality of why that flag should NEVER touch the ground!  Our National Anthem and that Flag mean something, to many, it means EVERYTHING!  

 

For some of us (it is 8am where I am at, 13 miles from N Korea), it represents why we do what we do!  For many of us, we have lost friends, family members fighting these "pointless wars" and defending this great Nation!  I have lost enough friends in theses wars, but they aren't pointless, they are what we are asked to do from our Country!  That National Anthem and the flag I and EVERY service member wear on our Right shoulder means everything to us, it is why we do what we do!

 

Am I offended at the disrespect of our flag and National Anthem,  HELL yes, and if it were up to me, you don't like the Anthem and the flag, let me know, I can pick you up from airport in Seoul and personally take you to another country just 13 miles North of me!  Now, that being said, you have the right to protest, you have the right to disrespect that flag and even though I don't like it and it does offend me, it is your right to do so and I support it.  Doesn't mean I like it.

 

You can dislike, even hate this President, but that National Anthem and flag are bigger than him or any other President who has sat in that office! 

That is a sad thing to hear!  

Wow nice rant bruh...you do know that there is no mandate, legal, constitutional, moral or otherwise that the anthem be played before the beginning of ANY athletic event. 

 

BTW, bruh NONE of the protestors have said ANYTHING about not liking the flag, anthem or nation. The ONLY people saying that are Rightwing nutjobs like yourself.

 

Time to get a grip.

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If I may bottom line this...

 

The people who are protesting may have legitimate feelings and thoughts that are worth listening to. The people who are uneasy with the protests may have legitimate feelings and thoughts that are worth listening to. There's an intelligent conversation to be had on the subject.

 

And that's exactly why Trump's comments are wrong. He doesn't want a conversation. He doesn't want people to talk or listen to each other. He wants division, fear, and hate.

 

Make America one again.

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51 minutes ago, dav87sc said:

Bang, I mostly agree with the list you have there,

 

The differences I have are small comparatively and what makes people different.  And I can agree to disagree and be okay that we all may have different positions.

Earlier I wasn't calling for a boycott.  If it read that way, then let me clear that up.  I was wondering what your position on boycotts in general were, and you laid that out.  I actually agree with you and hold the same stance.

 

 

I can understand your thought process and position.  My real question for the league is, does this set up a precedent for other forms of protest?  It seems to fly in the face of everything they have been doing to mold the product of what the public consumes.

 

We saw them deny a team the ability to put a patch on their uniforms for 1 game in support of ?police/military(can't exactly remember)?  Is this any different?  What restrictions will be come out later?  Where do they draw the line?  I don't even think it inappropriate that they do draw a line.

 

And, that was the thoughtful, well spoken response I am used to seeing from you. 

-Dav87sc

 

The NFL and it's uniform rules always seem to fly in the face of common sense.. a police patch, other honorifics..they have their uniform standard and without actually knowing I would guess they probably don't disagree with a 9-11 tribute for example, they have to maintain a steady position. Open up the door, soon the uniforms can look like Nascar cars for every tribute these guys want to do. And while a patch to honor slain officers would be good, a patch to honor slain homey Snook might not. So they ban them all and be done with it. (And it also avoids potential side deals with non league sponsors.)

A kneeldown.. it's a bodily motion, quiet and still. No hystrionics, etc.  (If a guy wanted to hula hoop in his jockstrap to raise awareneess about his cause.. we aren't having that.)  Policing that starts to get into minutia (which the NFL dearly loves on the field) but off it can be messy, as they keep finding out with black eye after black eye. So they take the high road and they mend some fences with the players that goodell has been hacking away at in other ways. 

 

~Bang

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26 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

Since we are now bringing up Francis Scott Key and pointing out a third verse which is being thrown out to try and justify these actions, 

Ah ah... these are distractions.

the protest has absolutely nothing to do with the flag. It's about addressing the problems that exist with police shootings and police methods.

Everything else it is supposedly about is distraction meant to muddy the water and cause confusion. People get to arguing about all sorts of things. Folks who have you convinced it's about the flag or the military do so because they know a good sized group will inherently go along with that, because who wouldn't? Low hanging fruit gets eaten.
But it's not about that.

 

As we have seen, it works unless you keep your eye on the ball.


~Bang

Edited by Bang
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22 minutes ago, B&G said:

Is it not crystal clear to NFL players that protesting  by disrespecting the anthem and flag would be polarizing and unpopular?  Do the marginal players among the protestors  think they will escape punishment by the owners if ratings go down and dollars are lost?  Surely not.  They do know they're in a workplace environment, right?

 

To me, the protest is fine and well within their rights but the method they chose to express it is ill-advised  and naive at best.

I thought you self deported? Ratings were up this weekend. The NFL is okay with it and seems a lot of owners as well. I got to imagine the players know punishment might come from this. A player was blackballed for this.

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24 minutes ago, B&G said:

Is it not crystal clear to NFL players that protesting  by disrespecting the anthem and flag would be polarizing and unpopular?  Do the marginal players among the protestors  think they will escape punishment by the owners if ratings go down and dollars are lost?  Surely not.  They do know they're in a workplace environment, right?

 

To me, the protest is fine and well within their rights but the method they chose to express it is ill-advised  and naive at best.

Pretty much where I've been the whole time.

 

I've yet find anyone who's mind has changed over the issue.

 

Hell, majority of the NFL wasn't even involved until trump said a player should be fired for being involved. 

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Why make these protests a military issue? Because Trump told us to in order to distract from the absurdity of his comments? Flags represent more than just the positive, sacrificial elements of a nation. They can also represent hate and backwards ideology. Do people associate the Confederate flag entirely with the south's military efforts? Come on. 

 

All of this stems from an unwillingness to listen to the real reasons behind the protests, instead lazily attributing them wholly to a lack of national pride. These athletes are seen as a bunch of rich black malcontents that need to realize how good they've got it, spoiled crybabies that should shut up and get back to entertaining us with their crazy antics rather than engage in higher level reasoning like their superiors. 

 

I really don't think people realize how utterly tone deaf and bigoted they sound in these debates.

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4 hours ago, dav87sc said:

For some, it is the message......for some it is the medium.

The idea that it's okay to use whatever method that jumps into my head to get the message across is ridiculous.

I don't think you(or anyone) would argue against demonstrations being appropriate and sometimes even necessary.

But, those that think that violence, looting, and destruction of property during a demonstration is appropriate or justified, take away from the message.

Changing the message from, "hey look at the wrongs being done here" to "we hate you and everything you stand for, and while we are at it, if I/we can't have it, noone can.  We will destroy, steal and kill to make our point" and requiring "all-in" agreement or you are a racist/bigot/(add whatever name here) only furthers the divide and animosity.

 

If my children don't like something, I expect them to come to me and tell me.  They find that their cause is better served to have rational arguments and possible solutions than to scream/cry, break things or tell me they hate me.  Sometimes, I hear what they say and change the answer/way I look at things and sometimes I acknowledge their thoughts/feelings but l don't change the answer.  When they throw a temper tantrum, I send them to their room until they are able to have a conversation in a respectful manner.   If their actions are extreme enough, I get set in my way and won't change the answer, regardless.

 

Personally, if one person isn't getting enough of a response, then the next step would be to get more people into it.

You can't tell me that if 200 football players got together, leveraged their money, fame and started a campaign for whatever issue, they couldn't get adequate air time.  If the real intent is to create a dialogue and have injustices addressed, then find a way to make that impact.

 

I know there are many players who individually work through local charities and do many many great things for their towns/cities.

At the same time, the players aren't afraid to use the NFLPA to advance their individual/collective needs and wants within the NFL.

Maybe the next step is to join forces and create an organization, available to all players/coaches/staff, that brings attention to such social issues.

 

The problem I have with the kneeling issue, is it is during work time.  The NFL has been policing the players for on/off-field behavior - from domestic abuse, substance abuse, illegal activity, to end zone celebrations and uniform infractions.  All in an effort to present a product that does not celebrate the individual but the collective.  If they allow players to start demonstrating for whatever cause during the event(including pregame/postgame on premises), then they create a situation that is counter to the product they have been trying to cultivate.

 

Many, if not all NFL teams have received government moneys in the form of tax breaks (local/state and ?federal?)and subsidies for stadiums.  They enjoy the fruits of the labors of the public at large.  If/when every NFL team takes no public monies, and they decide as a private business to allow political speech during the performance of the job, then they can protest to their hearts desire in manners that are allowable by the league and teams.  Until then, don't take my money, and then beat me about the head and shoulders and tell me how racist and horrible I am.

Oh God, you're one of those people that tacitly supports police brutality because it's on "company time". How many of our coworkers spout their political views at work? 

 

Thats the problem. You people still see it as a "political speech". It's a humanitarian issue. People are getting shot over nothing. It's a humanitarian issue like Harvey and Irma. More people are outraged over Michael Vick brutalizing dogs over human beings being brutalized. 

 

"Your kids" have asked for redress from the court system for years. In Fairfax county, Moco, London when cops bust up a teen party, cops don't think of firing into a leaving vehicle?

 

you people bang the drum about law and order but have no concept of what law and order are meant to uphold: Justice.

 

no, "law and order" is another dog whistle to keep the status quo. 

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