Burgold

Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

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I currently teach college biology to a high school class. As the students are minors, I am neither surprised nor concerned that first amendment limitations exist regarding my interactions with them. Too bad the Fayetteville teacher did not consider any repercussions to his "teaching" moment. I suppose it could become a good teaching moment for students in the future.

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I somewhat understand where the teacher is coming from. He is right to say things like flag burning and kneeling during the national anthem are protected by the 1st amendment, and I would be willing to bet a lot of his students don't recognize it. I can also tell you that doing or saying something shocking can be a good way to get students attention, get them thinking, and get them talking.

That said, I wouldn't have done what he did. First of all, I love my country. Second of all, what he did was imprudent, he should have foreseen the consequences he is now facing. Third of all, I don't think it was an especially effective way to make the point he was trying to make.

Let me give you a sense of how I would have approached the question instead: I recently had a class where students wanted to talk about Kaepernick kneeling during the national anthem. They were split 50-50 in support and opposition. We had a productive dialogue about it, and I gave everybody a chance to speak his or her mind on the subject, democracy in action! For my part, I took the opportunity to remind them that such acts of protest are protected by the 1st amendment, but I tried to focus the discussion by quoting Cornel West, "We have to keep two ideas of America in our head at the same time." On one hand America is a place that believes in liberty and justice for all, but on the other hand America is an empire that has a long history of tyranny and injustice. Thomas Jefferson is a good example of this contradiction: He wrote the Declaration of Independence, saying it is "self-evident" that all men are equal and have a right to liberty, but he also owned slaves and regarded the indigenous people as "savages," which is remarkably dissonant if you think about it. One could rightly ask him, as David Walker did, "Do you understand the meaning of your own language?"

These are difficult questions, and maybe that's where I would disagree most with teaching about the first amendment in the way this teacher did, it was too much of an oversimplification.

 

Edited by s0crates
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On 9/23/2016 at 0:52 PM, mcsluggo said:

bring 'em on... Zoony baby,.   

 

Say that name 2 more times and look in a mirror....

Sluggybitch.jpg

Boo!

 

This is old news.  Now I prefer they kneel before this great flag and during the singing of our anthem, or even just lay on their backs in a show respect for the awesomeness of America with their hands pointing to the lord.

 

Only the strong should be standing with their hands on their hearts.  We can let the cowards sit, kneel, or flounder around on the ground.  

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Like I've said repeatedly, my hand on my heart.

If I didn't have a heart, I wouldn't have my country.  And if I didn't have my country, I wouldn't have a heart.

I did it so I can do it.

With heart.  <a kneel to me is the same>

Hail to the fallen, and to all who hold your Constitution near and dear.

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It seems DeSean Jackson, Niles Paul, Greg Toler and Rashad Ross have decided to protest the National Anthem - What will Danny do? I say cut them!!!

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2016/09/25/desean-jackson-and-three-other-redskins-raise-fists-during-national-anthem/

 

Edited by THE HAMMER'IN HOG

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Well I know it's only my opinion but I've said I don't have an issue with a respectful proteat.  They are still standing.  

It's the sitting on the bench like a lazy child that bothered me.  Raid fists or even taking a knee I'm fine with.  I still don't like it but it showseems you still have some respect while protesting.

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if you've never served, but continue to speak on the vets that have, please, for the love of god, STFU.  

 

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On the opposite end of the spectrum, I just saw what Dabo Swinney said. OMG. Plantation owner mentality much? 

Basically, it sucks people like you are unarmed and getting shot by police but look on the bright side, you can marry a white woman if you wanted to.

Hey Dabo, I'm glad you think that having the civil liberty equivalent of table scraps is good enough for some of us to have. I hope every black recruit you have sees how you really feel. 

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12 hours ago, youngchew said:

if you've never served, but continue to speak on the vets that have, please, for the love of god, STFU.  

 

Thank you. I've just about had it with some folks on social media who say "I know I speak for all vets when I say..."  No. No you don't. Lot's of examples of vets supporting Kap's and others signs of protests. As I stated earlier in the thread,(wait...need more coffee for this one).... 

*

 

I find it to be disrespectful,(to a certain degree),but only because of what I believe the flag and anthem stand for. Among them, ideals. Ideals written in the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution that we continue to strive for to this day,and hopefully will continue to do so.  Making this country great is a team effort. A total team effort by all Americans,(Great example would be WW2 imho). As such,the flag represents all Americans and does so equally. Not just the military both past and present,(something our first citizens of the United States would find disconcerting is the military aspect of the flag I think). I served,(and proudly did so),in a US military whose missions include defending the right of this particular type of protest,(among many others). To me,(the double edged sword of my disrespectful comment),it would be hypocritical to then **** about the way it's done. I do not consider it a "slap in my face" or "total lack of respect" towards me as a vet because of a fist raised in the air or a kneel during the National Anthem. Certainly I understand that if Kap and others are going to give their opinion,then others are going to give their's. It's all Part and parcel of the deal in this wonderful country of ours and one of many reasons it's still a great one. :) Where I do draw the line,is this mentality that's beginning to grow that,no matter who you are,you will stand for the anthem and show respect to the flag or else. That's not what this country is about and not what I served for.  

 

 

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Michael Rose-Ivey's comments are telling.  Stand for the anthem, we'll cheer for you (and probably call you slurs behind closed doors).  Kneel/sit for the anthem, we'll say those slurs to your face. 

No-win situation for a lot of these guys and it takes a lot of courage to do what they're doing. 

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1 hour ago, youngchew said:

if you've never served, but continue to speak on the vets that have, please, for the love of god, STFU.  

 

didn't the vets serve to protect their right to speak?

;)

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16 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I just saw what Dabo Swinney said. OMG. Plantation owner mentality much? 

Basically, it sucks people like you are unarmed and getting shot by police but look on the bright side, you can marry a white woman if you wanted to.

Hey Dabo, I'm glad you think that having the civil liberty equivalent of table scraps is good enough for some of us to have. I hope every black recruit you have sees how you really feel. 

Good article on Dabo's comments.

 

The Root: Confounding Fathers: Paternalism and the Sociopathic Nature of Racial Discourse in America

Quote

Swinney’s press conference reminded me of a Sopranos episode that I recently rewatched, from the show’s fifth season, in which Tony Soprano gets into a car accident with his nephew’s fiancee in the passenger seat. Rumors fly. Tony professes innocence to his wife, Carmela, who is justifiably skeptical. Tony says, “I know I haven’t been an angel,” referring to his having bedded hundreds of women behind her back. Then he adds, “But you’ve had your issues, too,” referring to her admitting that she once desired another man, though never slept with him.

Tony Soprano is a sociopath, a moral monster. He can never accept blame; always feels that he, in fact, is the one being wronged; and endlessly rationalizes dysfunctional behavior, whether it be infidelity or murder.

 

And another from a Clemson professor

Take MLK’s name out your mouth: An open letter to Clemson football coach Dabo Swinney

Quote

In his speech to the SCLC board in 1967, King argued that “The evils of capitalism are as real as the evils of militarism and evils of racism.” He brought the civil rights struggle to the most public platforms at the most inconvenient times.

You did get one thing right about Dr. King when you mentioned, “He changed the world through education in the face of ignorance.”

On the topic of education, I wonder if you have ever read Dr. King’s “Letter from a Birmingham Jail.” It’s okay if you haven’t. Dr. King wrote many things, and it’s challenging to read them all. Although this letter was widely circulated in the 1960s, I find that less and less people are familiar with it today.

Perhaps after reading it, you’ll work with me to change that.

Like today’s protesters, Dr. King faced critics who claimed that they agreed with his ultimate aim of justice but simply disagreed with his methods. They said that they agreed – as you do – that citizens have the right to protest, but they felt that there was an appropriate time and place for it. Your statements encouraged athletes to keep their protest off the field. Dr. King’s critics didn’t say that his methods were “wrong.”

 

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I guess my tears (as a veteran) mean nothing.  I guess being a black man in the military (as far as police ar concerned) means nothing.  I am so frustrated about what is going on in this country between police and black america, that it makes me cry.  (I mean that, I  took a 3-month break from ES and the internet/facebook to calm my head, check my posts)

I myself have got so many stories of being pulled over and treated like **** by police that it could be an ABC Family movie.  

But yet the NEVER SERVED A DAY IN THE MILITARY conservatives continue to make excuses for police shootings of black people.  Justified or not, "before the facts come out" as many of them love to say, they immediately support police and "blue lives matter."  HELLO, earth to humans.  Most black people agree that ALL LIVES LATTER.  

My wife (black) jokes that she married a black man with an Irish name so that our children, just like me,  will "look white" on paper.

 

Hey, conservatives....If you've ever......EVER....known what that feels like to be confronted by police as a black man, than by all means, you chime the **** in.  

 

Edited by Chew
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oh wait, you've never been black before when being pulled over by police?  Oh ****, my bad.  

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From the link Benning posted above:

"I winced when I heard a reporter ask you, a white man who makes somewhere in the area of $5 million a year from the physical labor and bodily risk of unpaid black athletes, if he would “discipline” them for making a political statement. Given that you and I both work on the former plantation of John C. Calhoun, the historical significance of the question is staggering and troubling."

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Imagine if YOU got pulled over and the cops said they needed to search YOUR car (for absolutely no ****ing reason

DO THAT 12 TIMES in 5 years and then tell me how you feel, Conservative America.  You feeling TREAD ON?!

Edited by Chew
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4 minutes ago, SemperFi Skins said:

You need a beer dude, or maybe a hit?

 

I assume you're on this message board because you like the Redskins......

so I got nothin' :(

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http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/news/nfl-tv-ratings-rasmussen-reports-poll-colin-kaepernick-anthem-protest-reaction-effect/95jdoch1ngj103xvbkllcbvk

 

It's the Kaepernick Effect, stupid.

The alarming fall in NFL TV ratings this season is partly because of fan anger over on-field protests by Colin Kaepernick and other players of the American flag/national anthem, according to pollster Rasmussen Reports.

 
y one-third (32 percent) of adults say they're less likely to watch NFL game telecasts because of the Kaepernick-led player protests against racial injustice, according to Rasmussen's telephone/online survey of 1,000 American adults conducted Oct. 2-3.
Edited by Springfield

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