Standing during the Pledge or National Anthem

[The 12th Commandment]

9 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

In the vein of what he is protesting, change was never brought about by being out of the public eye. Its been up close, personal, and uncomfortable. Sometimes, its the only way. You can have all the town hall meetings you want, where everyone speaks their mind and spreads good feels and talks about what needs to happen, but sometimes, one needs to be willing to pome that hornets nest, to bring even more attention to a topic, and get even more people talking, which will get other people talking, and so on and so forth. May or may not happen, but I think this was about as powerful a statement as one can make, given the intersecting topics (injustice, race, football, patriotism).

I agree, and in the end it's his right and I support that even if I don't feel he made the best use of his cachet.  I was thinking it would be even more powerful and in your face to do something, and maybe something crazy...ish, with others.  Controversial isn't my problem it's the focus on his take exclusively that I find a little off putting.

Edited August 29, 2016 by KAOSkins

[No Excuses]

My take is that everyone's got a role in the fight for fair treatment of minorities. Some are going to do community work, some are going to take public stands of dissent (like Kap) and some are going to sit on the fence and criticize those doing the work, while doing absolutely nothing themslves. 

There's somewhat of an irony in this that I don't think Kap even cared if this got out in the news. By all means it was his own private and silent protest, that he's been doing it all preseason and it didn't get picked up till the third game when someone tweeted a picture out. And now it's being blasted all across the news. And people are talking about it, and it's making people consider that maybe minorities, regardless of their success, aren't happy with where we currently stand on race and selective law enforcement. 

Anyways, carry on fence pigeons. Criticize those who are sticking their neck out.

[The Evil Genius]

2 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

I wonder if he has donated any of his millions of dollars to the "oppressed"?  If not, isn't it a bit hypocritical?  To say I am taking a stand, but not willing to do anything about it (other than sit down for the national anthem) other than make a statement which is not based on factual information but of your own opinion, only to bring attention to yourself and say "Look at me!!!".  If you are willing to take a stand, TAKE A STAND and go all in!!  I would have more respect for that.  He is just a spoiled NFL player who has never experienced oppression who is upset he is out of the limelight and no one is paying attention to him.

 

Like a lot of athletes, Kap is involved in a lot of charities (Camp Taylor is the big one).  

Also..Kap retweeted this 11 days ago. Prophetic.

 

[Mr. Sinister]

2 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

My take is that everyone's got a role in the fight for fair treatment of minorities. Some are going to do community work, some are going to take public stands of dissent (like Kap) and some are going to sit on the fence and criticize those doing the work, while doing absolutely nothing themslves. 

There's somewhat of an irony in this that I don't think Kap even cared if this got out in the news. By all means it was his own private and silent protest, that he's been doing it all preseason and it didn't get picked up till the third game when someone tweeted a picture out. And now it's being blasted all across the news. And people are talking about it, and it's making people consider that maybe minorities, regardless of their success, aren't happy with where we currently stand on race and selective law enforcement. 

Anyways, carry on fence pigeons. Criticize those who are sticking their neck out.

But he didnt donate any money...

Edited August 29, 2016 by Mr. Sinister

[LD0506]

Well Kap ought to be happy, he wanted to make a gesture to keep the topic in play, it worked. If that's all he's got, so be it. Add whatever momentum you can, even if it's one lil push. I don't agree with it personally but there simply is no question about his right to express himself however he sees fit.

I like to see "America" as an ideal we aspire to, ain't nowhere near it yet but we keep stretching and straining to reach closer to it. Freedom is the right to be wrong, to disagree, to hold opinions outside the accepted. Totalitarian states are about being "right", and they tell you what that is. So, we're all wrong together at some time, we learn from wrong, a lot of times two wrongs make a fight but a lot more times it can make a helluva good conversation. Embrace the wrong. 

I am disappointed that we haven't accomplished more but still look around and see a lot of people trying, aspiring to be more and help others do the same. The acknowledgement that we have more to do drives us, and in that respect Kap or BLM or whoever that cares enough to speak obliges me to listen. Not to agree, never signed that one, but listen and seek some understanding.

Often find that I'm wrong.

I'm grateful to learn it.

 

 

[mcsluggo]

1 hour ago, Burgold said:

Didn't know the history behind the National Anthem, sports, and WWI. Cool to learn. Thanks, Popeman. 

 

The complaint we don't know what Kap does outside of sitting holds resonance, however, it kind of brings me back to gesture vs protest. 

Mid he's protesting we should know about his other actions. After all, by choosing to sit he's making a public statement. He's then upping the public part when he chose to give that explanation. 

Why wouldn't he talk about his other efforts? He wants to make a statement. He wants to protest injustice. On top of that, I think we'd hear about his involvement. These things surface quickly. 

So, while I think it's a fair criticism I am not sure if it's an accurate one I might be proven wrong though  

  

 

 

7 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

I wonder if he has donated any of his millions of dollars to the "oppressed"?  If not, isn't it a bit hypocritical?  To say I am taking a stand, but not willing to do anything about it (other than sit down for the national anthem) other than make a statement which is not based on factual information but of your own opinion, only to bring attention to yourself and say "Look at me!!!".  If you are willing to take a stand, TAKE A STAND and go all in!!  I would have more respect for that.  He is just a spoiled NFL player who has never experienced oppression who is upset he is out of the limelight and no one is paying attention to him.

As for respect for the flag, well, it is absolutely disrespectful (IMO) not to stand for it and try to use it as some symbol of oppression.  I have given 20 yrs of service to this country, multiple combat deployments (3 more to go) and it sickens me to see someone show disrespect to the US Flag (whether burning it, not standing for it, etc) as so many have given their lives defending it.  That being said, everyone has a First Amendment right, they are given that right by the freedoms we have and if you truly believe in the first amendment and freedom of speech, you can disagree with the statement or stand but you must respect that persons opinion and right to do what they believe.

 

 

I donl't get these ones..at all.   He has made a statement, take that for what it is.  It might be the first step he makes, it might not.... but it is what it is.

 

If i go work on a habitat for humanity worksite next Saturday, is it hollow statement if i haven't also given money to them, or lobbied legislators for them...?   an action is an action.  judge it for the action.   If we aren't allowed to make statements, or take actions, unless we are "all-in"  .... then frankly all of us not named Mother Theresa better just shut the **** up,  and that won;t be good for anyone.     

[Rskins06]

2 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

If we aren't allowed to make statements, or take actions, unless we are "all-in"  .... then frankly all of us not named Mother Theresa better just shut the **** up,  and that won;t be good for anyone.     

Thought I was pretty clear when I stated he had the right to make that statement or take that stand and even if you disagree with it, you must respect that persons right.

 

[Rskins06]

http://www.allenbwest.com/allen/message-non-oppressed-black-man-colin-kaepernick

Good read

[TheGreatBuzz]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

What does the military get from the money it spends on patriotic displays before sporting events?  I assume the reason they are doing it is for a boost to recruiting.  But has there been a good cost-benefit analysis conducted on the practice?  The displays are often impressive but it feels like they could be a waste of money.

Yes.  Massive recruiting tool.  And their sports costs are a drop in the bucket compared to their biggest recruiting tool, the Blue Angels (for the Navy, other branches have similar things with massive budgets.).

 

 

As for this anthem business, I've made most of my points in the Kaep thread.  But one point I wanted to share here:

I don't like what Kap did but it pales in comparison to those jack holes that yell "Oooo'ssss" during the anthem.  Even worse when it's not even at a freaking Orioles game.  I did it once as a kid and my dad back handed me.  Told me how disrespectful it was.  To this day, I still agree with that.  I think most people do it without thinking about it.

[mcsluggo]

9 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

Thought I was pretty clear when I stated he had the right to make that statement or take that stand and even if you disagree with it, you must respect that persons right.

 

yes.. you made it clear that he has the right say what he wants to.

.... but you also made it clear that he is a hypocrite, spoiled brat, attention whore unless he has gone all-in.... right?

[Rskins06]

http://www.allenbwest.com/michele/hey-kaepernick-real-champion

Amazing!!!  Usain Bolt showed more respect (and he is NOT a citizen) to the anthem and flag as Colin Kaepernick. 

 

 

[Mr. Sinister]

2 minutes ago, Rskins06 said:

http://www.allenbwest.com/michele/hey-kaepernick-real-champion

Amazing!!!  Usain Bolt showed more respect (and he is NOT a citizen) to the anthem and flag as Colin Kaepernick. 

 

 

Okay

[Rskins06]

6 minutes ago, mcsluggo said:

yes.. you made it clear that he has the right say what he wants to.

.... but you also made it clear that he is a hypocrite, spoiled brat, attention whore unless he has gone all-in.... right?

You are correct.  As he is allowed to have an opinion or make a statement, I have that same right to have an opposite opinion.  Just because I believe he has the right to do it, doesn't mean I think what he is doing is right.  And yes, if he is making a statement, but not willing to back it up (other than sit down for our National Anthem) he is a hypocrite.  Now, when I see or read anything about him being involved in this other than sitting during the anthem because of his "feelings", I will then retract my hypocrite statement.

If I tell you it is wrong for people who can't afford college be kept out and should be given free college, but I am unwilling to give that person my seat in class, that makes me a hypocrite.  Doesn't change the fact I stood up for that person, just changes my sincerity to the cause.

[tshile]

protesting during the anthem doesn't offend me, but given how much it offends others (and how obvious and easily known it is that a large amount of people will be offended) it's hard to look at someone who chooses the anthem as their chance to protest as doing the issue they care about much good.

i've yet to see where he's furthered the conversation. i see tons of people claiming that he has, but I don't actually see where he has. where I see people actually talking about the issue I see the same people having the same conversations, but mostly I see people speaking directly about the idea of protesting during the national anthem.

doesn't really seem worth it.

[DogofWar1]

1 hour ago, The Evil Genius said:

 

I'm not arguing - just continuing on a point you made.

Considering this will cost him considerable endorsement dollars - I don't see what he gets out of it from a selfish viewpoint. He's even acknowledged that it will likely cost him financially. 

 

Yeah, I would certainly include the loss of endorsements as a result of this action in with his "actions" for the purposes of determining if he is doing this for the right reasons or not.

Between his tweet about 11 days ago, his sit, and the likely loss of endorsements, at this point, it weighs towards him doing it for the right reasons.  We'll see from here on out.

I see McSluggo's point that an action is an action and we should read it for what it is, and not heap extra requirements on it, and largely agree that he doesn't have to go "all-in" to be considered doing something unselfishly; after all, a rich man who gives to charity can be charitable without giving away his entire fortune and wearing sackcloth.

I will say however, that he should continue.  Right now it's a single act.  If he's still making his protest in 6 months or a year, or however long, then I think we can mostly put to bed the publicity thing.

That is, he should protest how he feels is appropriate, not how others feel he should, but he should protest.  Protest your way, and stay committed to it.

[Sticksboi05]

2 hours ago, Popeman38 said:

No, you said:

The NFL and/or the 49ers can demand he stand (and terminate employment/fine him if he refuses), just not the government.

 

But my point was that outsiders who are arguing that because troops stand he has to, that's convoluted since they defend a document that protects his right to not stand.

Not focusing on the discussion of whether or not he can be forced, he obviously can, just like Donald Sterling can be removed for racist comments but not thrown in jail.

[Burgold]

1 hour ago, mcsluggo said:

 

If i go work on a habitat for humanity worksite next Saturday, is it hollow statement if i haven't also given money to them, or lobbied legislators for them...?       

The constant danger with a thread such as this one is that I  always worry that I'm staking out a position more extreme than I mean to or that I'm responding in a way that makes me seem more extreme than I feel.

That disclaimer given

There's a big difference to me between you working next Saturday at a Habitat for Humanity and you not standing. For one, you are giving up your time, sweat, and effort for a specified cause. For another, I know exactly what that cause is and you are acting in an unambiguous cause. If I don't stand for the National Anthem that can mean anything from I'm a lazy sonofagun or I hate America, to I have a legitimate grievance and I'm trying to make a point.

In Kap's case, it seems to be the latter. Now, sitting is not enough of a protest in my book because I just don't know what it means. I like that he is speaking out and expanding on why he's sitting. That to me is a different ball game.

I am not personally a fan of this form of protest, but as almost everyone has said... he has a right to protest in the way he sees fit and if it does cause some to pause and grumble that makes the gesture effective.  A protest or a gesture that no one responds to isn't worth spit.

To me, I am not sure that this is the most effective form of protest because very few are focusing on what he is protesting just the how. That makes it different than spending a weekend building houses for Habitat for Humanity or marching arm in arm with BLM protesters or sitting down in front of an abortion clinic etc.

On the other hand, whether this is an effective form of protest is a bit of a sidetrack from the issue of the thread which is should you stand for the pledge or the NA. Is not standing a legitimate means of protest or a gesture of global disrespect.

I'd recommend Kap take a stand and keep speaking. I do hope he becomes an advocate in other ways, but that's entirely up to him. He doesn't owe that to me or have to prove himself to me in any respect. 

[Popeman38]

17 minutes ago, Sticksboi05 said:

 

But my point was that outsiders who are arguing that because troops stand he has to, that's convoluted since they defend a document that protects his right to not stand.

Not focusing on the discussion of whether or not he can be forced, he obviously can, just like Donald Sterling can be removed for racist comments but not thrown in jail.

Fair enough.  I read your post more as your statement and not as pointing out a flawed argument.  My bad.

[HooHog]

2 hours ago, Rskins06 said:

http://www.allenbwest.com/michele/hey-kaepernick-real-champion

Amazing!!!  Usain Bolt showed more respect (and he is NOT a citizen) to the anthem and flag as Colin Kaepernick. 

 

 

So Allen West speaks for all black people now?

[RonArtest15]

Not a big deal if you do or if you don't.  It's not hurting anyone and you're exercising your 1st Amendment rights to do so. 

[twa]

14 minutes ago, HooHog said:

So Allen West speaks for all black people now?

 

Just the good ones  

[justice98]

3 hours ago, No Excuses said:

My take is that everyone's got a role in the fight for fair treatment of minorities. Some are going to do community work, some are going to take public stands of dissent (like Kap) and some are going to sit on the fence and criticize those doing the work, while doing absolutely nothing themslves. 

There's somewhat of an irony in this that I don't think Kap even cared if this got out in the news. By all means it was his own private and silent protest, that he's been doing it all preseason and it didn't get picked up till the third game when someone tweeted a picture out. And now it's being blasted all across the news. And people are talking about it, and it's making people consider that maybe minorities, regardless of their success, aren't happy with where we currently stand on race and selective law enforcement. 

Anyways, carry on fence pigeons. Criticize those who are sticking their neck out.

That's what I've been trying to argue all day when people criticize him because they say his protest doesnt accomplish anything.  

[Burgold]

Thing is, if you make a statement and no one hears it or understands it did you say anything at all? If a trees falls in a forest and no one is there does it make a sound?

The point of protesting is to make change. You can't do that if no one knows what the hell your protesting or what you are upset about.

I could be wrong in that, but it's how I feel.

[justice98]

Personally, standing for the pledge is one thing.  That makes some sense.  It's a pledge.

Standing for the anthem at sporting events I dont feel particularly strongly about.  I dont even really get why playing it at sporting events is a thing.  And why people are freaking out about Kap.  On the list of controversies in sports that got me upset, this wouldnt even rank.

[The Evil Genius]

Burg,

Perhaps it was an internal protest that when asked, he shared? It's not like Kap was or has been secretive about his views on Twitter. 

Edited August 29, 2016 by The Evil Genius