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Larry

CNN: Supreme Court strikes down Texas abortion access law

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46 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Innocent zygotes? Not really my business to take a moral stance in this case. Late term abortions for the sake of backing out isn’t something I agree with but unless I’m mistaken I don’t think anyone is arguing in support of that. Why do you use the term “hiding behind” rape and incest? They are provisions that should be looked at independently imo. One woman being forced by law to a carry a rapists baby in a first world country in 2019 is reprehensible and should never happen. 

 

You seem to be taking a stand by referring to them as zygotes,when in actuality most abortions on performed on a fetus.

 

 

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Needed:  Somebody has to figure out a way that a woman can give herself an abortion using a gun.  

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3 hours ago, Larry said:

Needed:  Somebody has to figure out a way that a woman can give herself an abortion using a gun.  

 

That's just disgusting and disturbing.  Not funny at all.

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22 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

This is Exodus 21:22:

 

 

A lot of theologians and archeologist interpret it as paying fine for property loss, not eye for eye execution for taking the life of the unborn fetus.  It's a multi-cell organism absorbing resources from the mother, its life, that's not the question.

 

  It's not a human being yet or capable of being one to get the same rights.  I can imagine numbers of premature babies in these states not standing a chance and dying anyway because of the higher then normal infant mortality rate.

 

 

C-section is jus as invasive as child-birth.  You run the risk of a complication that prevents further child birth every time you do it, imagine forcing someone to give birth and decide to give up for adoption because they cant afford the kid but it goes bad and they cant have kids down the road.  Why open ourselves up to this?

 

 

Do you agree with this law they passed in Alabama?

I have to. This goes back to the main disagreement that everything else comes down to. I see it as a human life, so as such I cant be okay with a human being killed. Obviously others dont view it as that so it makes sense that they would not have a problem with having an abortion. And if they dont see it as a human life why they would be so upset at being told what to do, they dont see anything worth/needing protection.

 

If you saw lots of human lives being destroyed somewhere in the world, I imagine you would of course be completely against it and would want that to stop, right? So while I can understand the thought process for those that disagree, that dont see it as a life, I personally couldnt ignore what I see and believe is going on and that is loss of life. And until I see, read, or find something that makes me think its not a life I dont see that changing for me. I dont think its an easy thing, I cant imagine what some people go through, but in the end I think the value of life that I see doesnt deserve to be snuffed out. It wasnt their fault. I think the only time I would be okay with a choice being made is when the life of the mother is at risk, as then you are deciding between two lives and you have to make a decision.

 

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Just now, MisterPinstripe said:

I see it as a human life, so as such I cant be okay with a human being killed. 

So do you think the women who get abortions are murderers or accessories at least?

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3 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

No.

Then who's the murderer in this scenario? A human is being killed. Someone is responsible, right?

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Just now, Cooked Crack said:

Then who's the murderer in this scenario? A human is being killed. Someone is responsible, right?

I think they would have to know that this is a baby, a human being, and deciding to kill it regardless because they just dont want it. I assume that women having abortions dont think this, dont believe its a life, and so they are not murderers. I think they are wrong, I think they are misinformed or deceived by what they have read or heard. But thats very different from being a murderer.

 

If you had a doctor performing an abortion on a 7,8, or 9 month old baby I would assume they know thats a person. They can feel pain and can survive outside of the mother, etc. I would be more inclined to say that was murder. But late term abortions arent allowed outside of very rare situations where either the baby or mother will die.

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15 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

 

If you saw lots of human lives being destroyed somewhere in the world, I imagine you would of course be completely against it and would want that to stop, right?

 

Please dont pull at my heart strings with that, because the adjacent policies implemented by people trying to push these laws show they dont care about the child once they are born.  Not only that, I dont hear anything anymore about helping what's going on to the Rohingya or that part of Africa that got whipped out by the cyclone or the silence of evangelicals on refugee issue coming from Latin America that includes children.  You may be sad about what's happening in the world, but are you challenging these lawmakers to do anything about it, because they aren't.  I am, by voting them out of office.

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Just now, Renegade7 said:

 

Please dont pull at my heart strings with that, because the adjacent policies implemented by people trying to push these laws show they dont care about the child once they are born.  Not only that, I dont hear anything anymore about helping what's going on to the Rohingya or that part of Africa that got whipped out by the cyclone or the silence of evangelicals on refugee issue coming from Latin America that includes children.  You may be sad about what's happening in the world, but are you challenging these lawmakers to do anything about it, because they aren't.  I am, by voting them out of office.

Im not trying to pull at heart strings, just trying put in perspective how I feel about it. Nothing more. I would also suggest you dont lump people into a group without reason or making assumptions about how I vote. Im all for helping as many as possible and I didnt vote for anyone that is currently in office.

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3 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

Im not trying to pull at heart strings, just trying put in perspective how I feel about it. Nothing more. I would also suggest you dont lump people into a group without reason or making assumptions about how I vote. Im all for helping as many as possible and I didnt vote for anyone that is currently in office.

 

I'm not trying to lump you into anything, but disappointed you commenting about doing something to help what's going on and you aren't voting.  That doesn't make sense to me.

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1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm not trying to lump you into anything, but disappointed you commenting about doing something to help what's going on and you aren't voting.  That doesn't make sense to me.

I never said I didnt vote, I said I didnt vote for anyone currently in office. The people I voted for just didnt get elected. I vote every chance I get.

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6 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

I never said I didnt vote, I said I didnt vote for anyone currently in office. The people I voted for just didnt get elected. I vote every chance I get.

 

Unfortunately GOP makes clear their priorities via their actions.  I'm not sure how you vote, but can't get down their plan for making world a better place.  They like Dany talking about what they know good is and don't care what others think anymore because "they don't have to". Not how democracy works.

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1 minute ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Unfortunately GOP makes clear their priorities via their actions.  I'm not sure how you vote, but can't get down their plan for making world a better place.  They like Dany talking about what they know good is and don't care what others think anymore because "they don't have to". Not how democracy works.

I guess I should have said this outright earlier, Im not a republican.

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48 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

I see it as a human life, so as such I cant be okay with a human being killed.

Are you against any human being killed for any reason?  If not, what circumstances are you okay with a human being killed?

 

33 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

If you had a doctor performing an abortion on a 7,8, or 9 month old baby I would assume they know thats a person. They can feel pain and can survive outside of the mother, etc.

Going by context, I think you are talking about an unborn baby that is 7-9 months along.  Is that correct? 

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55 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

I have to. This goes back to the main disagreement that everything else comes down to. I see it as a human life, so as such I cant be okay with a human being killed. Obviously others dont view it as that so it makes sense that they would not have a problem with having an abortion. And if they dont see it as a human life why they would be so upset at being told what to do, they dont see anything worth/needing protection.

 

If you saw lots of human lives being destroyed somewhere in the world, I imagine you would of course be completely against it and would want that to stop, right? So while I can understand the thought process for those that disagree, that dont see it as a life, I personally couldnt ignore what I see and believe is going on and that is loss of life. And until I see, read, or find something that makes me think its not a life I dont see that changing for me. I dont think its an easy thing, I cant imagine what some people go through, but in the end I think the value of life that I see doesnt deserve to be snuffed out. It wasnt their fault. I think the only time I would be okay with a choice being made is when the life of the mother is at risk, as then you are deciding between two lives and you have to make a decision.

 

 

And I think this is where reasonable disagreements can come up in this issue.  When does life begin?  Can we define it?  Can we legislate it?  It's a really hard question in my view.

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6 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

Are you against any human being killed for any reason?  If not, what circumstances are you okay with a human being killed?

 

Going by context, I think you are talking about an unborn baby that is 7-9 months along.  Is that correct? 

 

In general, yes though my line of thinking is more along protecting the lives of innocents. I think there are exceptions in theory for people in a certain category like a Hitler, serial killers, etc. But in general Im against the death penalty because there are many cases of people that have been convicted of something who end up being innocent. If there is a chance that you could execute an innocent person I dont see how we can continue. I dont want to go too far off topic here though.

 

Yes, I would be referring to an unborn baby in that context.

 

5 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

And I think this is where reasonable disagreements can come up in this issue.  When does life begin?  Can we define it?  Can we legislate it?  It's a really hard question in my view.

Agreed.

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10 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

And I think this is where reasonable disagreements can come up in this issue.  When does life begin?  Can we define it?  Can we legislate it?  It's a really hard question in my view.

 

Its always life.  In a sense that it’s a living thing, it’s always life.  An amoeba is life, an insect is life, a Christmas tree is life.  We have no problem killing those.

 

To me, the question is more about whether this life is just one of millions of living inside of the mother’s host body or its own person.

 

Ultimately the answer to me is whether this life is capable of sustaining itself outside of the womb or its reliant on the mother’s body in order to exist on its own (and no, not in a lab or a test tube or hooked up to machines).

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5 hours ago, Larry said:

Needed:  Somebody has to figure out a way that a woman can give herself an abortion using a gun.  

Dude, you should just self ban!

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1 minute ago, Springfield said:

Ultimately the answer to me is whether this life is capable of sustaining itself outside of the womb or its reliant on the mother’s body in order to exist on its own (and no, not in a lab or a test tube or hooked up to machines).

 

I have trouble wrapping my head around this standard because babies born at full term are not capable of sustaining themselves outside the womb. 

 

And plenty go to full term but still need machines to stay alive for a while. 

 

I just don’t understand where the line is drawn here. It feels like anyone could draw it anywhere with this standard. 

 

 

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33 minutes ago, MisterPinstripe said:

 

In general, yes though my line of thinking is more along protecting the lives of innocents. I think there are exceptions in theory for people in a certain category like a Hitler, serial killers, etc. But in general Im against the death penalty because there are many cases of people that have been convicted of something who end up being innocent. If there is a chance that you could execute an innocent person I dont see how we can continue. I dont want to go too far off topic here though.

So what are your thoughts on holy wars?  Was God wrong?  Has he just had a change of heart?

 

I ask because when I have had these discussions with other people they are usually not able to justify being pro-life because their religion tells them so and also say why things like the holy wars were just.  I was curious what your thoughts were.

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29 minutes ago, tshile said:

 

I have trouble wrapping my head around this standard because babies born at full term are not capable of sustaining themselves outside the womb. 

 

And plenty go to full term but still need machines to stay alive for a while. 

 

I just don’t understand where the line is drawn here. It feels like anyone could draw it anywhere with this standard. 

 

 

Parent(s) have to make a life or death decision regarding that too. 

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4 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

So what are your thoughts on holy wars?  Was God wrong?  Has he just had a change of heart?

 

I ask because when I have had these discussions with other people they are usually not able to justify being pro-life because their religion tells them so and also say why things like the holy wars were just.  I was curious what your thoughts were.

I really dont want to take this too far off topic for the thread, so ill try to keep this short and would be happy to answer more if you want in a side message so as not to derail. Which is one of the reasons in these discussions I dont reference anything religious. Appealing to, for example, the bible as an authority is quite a waste of time for discussions with anyone that doesnt believe it as well. It wont have any authority for them. If I am going to have a legitimate discussion about a topic like abortion I have to be able to have that discussion without any reference to a religious belief that isnt shared.

 

With that said, what do you mean by holy wars? If its in reference to wars that happened in the old testament in the bible I have and see no contradiction but if you want me to expound further send me a message. This could easily go off the rails from the actual topic of abortion which I don't want to do.

 

On a side note I wanted to thank again everyone who did respond and explain where you were coming from. Its been a helpful and civil discussion for me which is refreshing.

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