The Brexit Thread

[visionary]

3 hours ago, London Kev said:

 

OK, just to play devil's advocate;

 

Remain should not be on offer.

 

The pre-referendum discussion was that this was to be a "once-in-a-lifetime decision". We live in a democracy which by definition means majority rule, and the majority voted to leave.

 

It should be leave with a deal or leave with no deal.

That’s not how democracies work .

[UKskins]

3 hours ago, London Kev said:

 

OK, just to play devil's advocate;

 

Remain should not be on offer.

 

The pre-referendum discussion was that this was to be a "once-in-a-lifetime decision". We live in a democracy which by definition means majority rule, and the majority voted to leave.

 

It should be leave with a deal or leave with no deal.

 

Totally respect that point of view, but the referendum was not held on honest grounds and the situation has dramatically changed in the last 4 years. By sheer demographics, the result has flipped to remain, just based on the very polarised voting by age and natural death rate, plus young people turning 18. All the polling says we want to remain. Many people would have voted remain if they thought the alternative was a hard brexit or a no deal brexit, but voted leave on the promises of unicorns and customs union that vote leave campaigned on.

 

The sensible compromise is a preferred vote. Remain and both leave options on the ballot, with electorate marking their choices in order of priority. Votes are counted, and any votes for the 3rd best option are then added back into the counting based on the second preference. Doesn't split the leave vote, doesn't hamstring people into a binary choice, everyone's voice is heard.

 

Democracy is not a finite point in time, it evolves and changes. We voted Tony Blair in in 1997, why have we bothered having elections since then? WE made our choice and majority ruled - he won a landslide. The whole it happened and therefore it must be respected is bull****. It was a dishonest campaign and lots of people voted utterly blind asd they had no idea what was lies. Since then parliament has tried to implement it but the reality is that it would be so catastrophic in so many ways that no-one will accept responsibility for forcing it through. Nobody wants to take the blame for it.

3 hours ago, nonniey said:

I think the option actually voted on was leave or stay. How they leave wasn't part of the vote.  Since then is has been a no holds barred attempt to prevent Britain from leaving despite their vote.

How we leave was a HUGE part of the pre-referendum debate and no deal was ruled out as not being an option several times. People voted based on that misinformation that if they voted to leave then it would not result in no deal.

Edited October 23, 2019 by UKskins

[London Kev]

1 hour ago, visionary said:

That’s not how democracies work .

 

Well yeah, democracy doesn't only mean majority rule.  There are individual and minority rights that are agreed to be beneficial for society as a whole and these are (and should be) set in stone as it were. But generally issues with differing viewpoints are often settled by a vote, and as we don't have proportional representation then it's the majority that decides the outcome.

 

Government is elected with a majority vote, Parliament passes bills by a majority vote. Regarding the Brexit referendum, more voters wanted to leave than wanted to remain. The people have spoken, well the majority have anyway. Majority rules.

 

Just so you know, I re-wrote this three times because it just sounded sarcastic, belligerent or both, and that is not my intention.  I'm generally not very political and if it's pointed out that I'm wrong about this then I'm big enough to admit it.

[London Kev]

1 hour ago, UKskins said:

 

Totally respect that point of view, but the referendum was not held on honest grounds and the situation has dramatically changed in the last 4 years. By sheer demographics, the result has flipped to remain, just based on the very polarised voting by age and natural death rate, plus young people turning 18. All the polling says we want to remain. Many people would have voted remain if they thought the alternative was a hard brexit or a no deal brexit, but voted leave on the promises of unicorns and customs union that vote leave campaigned on.

 

The sensible compromise is a preferred vote. Remain and both leave options on the ballot, with electorate marking their choices in order of priority. Votes are counted, and any votes for the 3rd best option are then added back into the counting based on the second preference. Doesn't split the leave vote, doesn't hamstring people into a binary choice, everyone's voice is heard.

 

Democracy is not a finite point in time, it evolves and changes. We voted Tony Blair in in 1997, why have we bothered having elections since then? WE made our choice and majority ruled - he won a landslide. The whole it happened and therefore it must be respected is bull****. It was a dishonest campaign and lots of people voted utterly blind asd they had no idea what was lies. Since then parliament has tried to implement it but the reality is that it would be so catastrophic in so many ways that no-one will accept responsibility for forcing it through. Nobody wants to take the blame for it.

 

Your first and third points are a bit of a reach IMHO.

 

If we had a re-vote every time a political party reneged on their manifesto or skewed statistics in their favour then no vote would ever stand. You know perfectly well that general elections vote in a fixed term government. The Brexit vote was said to be a one-off.

 

Your second point regarding a preferred vote compromise option is clever and something that I hadn't thought of.  I would be willing to to see a re-vote if it was along these lines. Lets just hope it doesn't come out 50/50 .

[nonniey]

3 hours ago, visionary said:

That’s not how democracies work .

Yeah who cares what was voted for.

[visionary]

 

[TheGreatBuzz]

More kicking the can down the road it seems?

Edited October 28, 2019 by TheGreatBuzz

[nonniey]

25 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

More kicking the can down the road it seems?

Delaying tactic.  Brexit is not going to occur unless a general election occurs that Brexiters win. Those opposed to Brexit managed to pass legislation that won't allow Brexit to occur without a deal, that same group won't approve a deal, thus preventing Brexit. They oppose also general elections right now as they would lose, so they are delaying  an election until the odds of them winning improve.

 

If that isn't an attack on democracy, what is? 

Edited October 28, 2019 by nonniey

[No Excuses]

10 minutes ago, nonniey said:

 

If that isn't an attack on democracy, what is? 

Openly lying about prorogation, getting caught trying to shutdown democratic debate by the highest court and losing all credibility and trust in the process? 
 

All of this is completely the fault of the Brexiters, from the outright lies at the start of the campaign to complete inability to deliver on their false promises. Their only saving grace is that Corbyn sucks and is anti-EU himself.

Edited October 28, 2019 by No Excuses

[visionary]

2 hours ago, nonniey said:

Delaying tactic.  Brexit is not going to occur unless a general election occurs that Brexiters win. Those opposed to Brexit managed to pass legislation that won't allow Brexit to occur without a deal, that same group won't approve a deal, thus preventing Brexit. They oppose also general elections right now as they would lose, so they are delaying  an election until the odds of them winning improve.

 

If that isn't an attack on democracy, what is? 

This is exactly how representative democracy works.  There is no clear unified support for Brexit in Britain or in the parliament.  If Brexit were as it had been advertised it would have been passed by now.  It's up to the parliament to take what the people want and figure out how or if they can actually deliver.  In the meantime public opinion is allowed to change and parliament is allowed to take that into account as well.  I think assuming people in Britain still want what they wanted years ago after everything that has come out, is a bit silly.  Even during the original vote quite a few people voted for it as a protest vote, thinking it would not win.  Now much more is known and many things have happened since then.   

 

 

Also you're wrong about a general election.  From what I've been seeing, it's supported by the Lib Dems who are mainly an anti-brexit party and likely to pick up seats, and opposed by Labour who is mostly anti-Brexit, but mixed on the issue, likely because Corbyn is afraid he will lose seats and the election.  The ruling conservatives will probably lose seats as well on both sides.

Edited October 28, 2019 by visionary

[visionary]

 

[DCSaints_fan]

On 10/23/2019 at 11:11 AM, London Kev said:

 

OK, just to play devil's advocate;

 

Remain should not be on offer.

 

The pre-referendum discussion was that this was to be a "once-in-a-lifetime decision". We live in a democracy which by definition means majority rule, and the majority voted to leave.

 

It should be leave with a deal or leave with no deal.

 

Referenda are not constitutionally binding in the UK.  The UK courts have ruled that Parliament is sovereign.   If the people don't like what Parliament is doing, then can elect a new Parliament which reflect the public will. 

 

Parliament has attempted, in good faith, for nearly the last three years, to negotiate a withdrawal agreement with the EU that was in the interests of the British people.   They have failed.   The public should now be well informed of the complex issues that a withdrawal from the EU entails.   I think its reasonable that a second referendum has the option to call the whole thing off. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by DCSaints_fan

[visionary]

 

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[nonniey]

1 hour ago, visionary said:

 

The results will likely determine whether Brexit ever occurs. Guess the remainers have 6 weeks to turn the polls around (not impossible but not likely either).

[visionary]

8 minutes ago, nonniey said:

The results will likely determine whether Brexit ever occurs. Guess the remainers have 6 weeks to turn the polls around (not impossible but not likely either).

It's way more complicated than that.  There are other issues on the table for the election and various flavors of brexit and non-brexit.

Edited October 29, 2019 by visionary

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[TradeTheBeal!]

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[FanboyOf91]

Not sure where to put this, so...

 

 

[FanboyOf91]

wtf britain