bulldog Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 with all the events that have occurred, the blown personnel moves, the departure of Jeff George, the horrendous opening losses........ how long does Marty have before he gets canned? does he get the rest of the season regardless or should he go if the team is say 0-6 and has not been competitive even with the change in quarterbacks? My own view is that Marty deserves at least the chance to finish out the season whatever the record. I think last year proved that Norv should have been allowed to hang himself by losing those last three games, which they would have, instead of being able to say he left at 7-6 when the team was still in the playoff hunt for a wildcard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickalino Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Norv started out 0-7 and that was still after several miserable seasons, and he still squeezed out another couple years. Marty will get at least a full year, even though I disagree with it. In my opinion, he should have never been hired. I was shouting against his hire for quite a while, until everybody here started sayin "Give Marty a chance". So I compromised by responding, "I'll bite my lip now, if you let me say 'I told ya so', when he fails" [ by Mick on September 28, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 28, 2001 Author Share Posted September 28, 2001 you bring up an interesting point. A lot of us had differing opinions about Marty in the beginning based on our perceptions of his past record. An interesting snippet from the KC media I picked up this week from my former college roommate who lives out there: Former players from KC and Cleveland look at what Marty has done here and claim it is not the same guy. Hanford Dixon and Clay Matthews said Marty was always a discipline guy but never ran the kind of lockdown training camp he did here in 2001. The Browns and Chiefs never had assigned seats on the team plane as the Redskins do or assigned parking spaces and the like. He also treated performing veteran players with respect and never did the kind of stuff to he did this year to Darrell Green and Bruce Smith in terms of trying to reteach them techniques and making them go hard in two a days. In fact Matthews was saying how Marty developed a soft spot for one player, Frank Minnifield and brought him a homebaked batch of cookies to a team meeting on his 30th birthday as a gag. Sound like the same guy to you? Something is missing in this incarnation of Schottenheimer and John Riggins put his finger on it a week ago on the radio: a lack of a sense of humor. Marty is not having fun despite his pronouncements about being glad to be back in the NFL and he has not allowed the players to enjoy being members of this year's team. As a line in an old movie says Marty is "all justice and no mercy" as an avenging angel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2cents Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I think Marty may be afraid to have fun with the guys at this moment. Remember, as an analyst, he knew the cr@p that was going on here as far as the inmates running the asylem. He probably feels he can't let his guard down because he knows the personalities on this team will take miles for every inch he gives them. Yes I include Green and Smith in that statement. I wonder if Darrell even remembers what it was like here under Gibbs. Sacralige I know, but sometimes I wonder, Smith has always been a jerk from what I remember hearing out of Buffalo. Leadership when the chips were down was not his strong suit there, I've heard that he would always point fingers, but never at himself. So who are Marty's leaders then, Westbrook(please)???, Davis(mr. no-show at the wight room)???? If you had this group to work with, you wouldn't have a sense of humor either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Angry Buddha Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Even Snyder would have to give Marty until the end of 2002 to prove himself. Marty's pulled off all the parts of this team that weren't working, subbed in a slew of waiver wire rejects for 1 year deals, and will have a tremendous amount of cap room next year to re-arm the team. How the choices he makes for the 2002 Redskins work out will determine his fate. ------------------ <IMG SRC="http://home.earthlink.net/~wahoofamily/flag.gif" border=0> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I agree, Buddha. Even if this year ends horrendous as it has started, it will take that long to make it "Marty's" team. If, by the end of NEXT season, we are not poised to contend ... there may be decisions to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UK Skins Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Exactly what I was going to say Buddha. (why angry today?) If we start the 2002 season the same way then bye-bye. A decent off-season though and everyone will be back on the band-wagon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sailor Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Marty gets to finish out the season, but I don't think 2002 is guaranteed at all. Dan Snyder won't fire his head coach mid season two years in a row. That thought is too awful to contemplate. But Dan is not a patient guy. Marty is going to have to give him a reason to invest another year. One thing we don't know is what Marty has been telling Dan. Marty has a tremendous credibility problem right now. If he has been telling Dan the same things that he has been telling the media, that this team will contend for a SB, etc. and the season goes on as it has, Dan will totally have lost faith in Marty. It's not just the record or the awful play, Marty has done a lot of controversial things like hiring all his relatives, Oklahoma drills in training camp etc. If you do controversial things and are successful, everyone thinks you're a genius. But if you fail, everyone thinks you're an idiot. Would Dan give another year to an idiot he didn't trust? I don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markrc99 Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 if dan snyder were to ax marty that pre-maturely,he'd never get anybody again..especially after he's publicly taken responsibility for the situation of the team..justly or not,working for snyder is an issue other top candidates weighed heavily..& any coach has to have a QB..i think if norv can get 7 yrs,we can give marty more than 7 gms. i agree,by the end of next season,if the QB position is the only thing keeping this team from turning the corner,then i'd still tend to support marty..the team can't go back to what was..which was absolutely no accountability..i agree w/mick,norv was well liked and they still started 0-7.. i don't know about marty's rules..some of that does sound a bit much..but i think some of it is designed to get the team to become more familiar with all it's parts..maybe two guys that don't like each other but have to work together,do need to be around one another a little more..everybody knowing everybody a little better isn't a bad thing.. the stinking press would love to see marty axed so they could just completely shred snyder for months on end..you know it's true..the offensive scheme isn't top shelf,that's my only beef w/marty..but he's won alot of gms playing conservative football,and he can here too..it's down to the players,as they often will contend themselves. [ by markrc99 on September 28, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Angry Buddha Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 UK Skins-- I'll probably be ANGRY from here on out... ------------------ <IMG SRC="http://home.earthlink.net/~wahoofamily/flag.gif" border=0> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Even if Marty goes 0 for a bunch of games, he'll still get to come back next year. He'll convince Dan that the overhaul needed to be deeper than he thought and that 2002 will be a continuation of the rebuild. But I think that we would then have to show signs of life by the end of 2002, indications that we are poised on the brink of being a serrious contender in 2003. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Remember to think only Happy thoughts. Anything else you do at your own risk. Rod Sterling the twilight zone ------------------ Take a sip of the Marty KoolAid and Believe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I think Marty has this year to blow, next year to be around .500 and if in the 3rd year he blows, he doesn't make it to week 8 in 2003 ------------------ <IMG SRC="http://www.blackmind.com/Phiya/movbob.gif" border=0><IMG SRC="http://tenaciousd.com/images/tenaciousd_002.jpg" border=0> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 The simple fact is we all agreed that this Redskin team needed a complete change of culture after seven years of Norv and having a pretty loose ship. Marty WAS a lock down guy in this camp. I've pointed out that Lockett has said this was a harder camp than he had gone though in KC. And I've said, with most in agreement, that this camp was necessary to change how we approach things, but next year's camp would be the true measure of what Marty is, has become, or wants to really be. He couldn't do this next year and get away with it. He simply had to make sure the people here knew he was in charge and there was no nonsense. He made camp and life more structured than it had previously been, because there was little structure. Obviously, this camp was something this team had to go through. That they don't like it is irrelevant to me. They liked Norv's camps and they generally underperformed. I'd rather see them underperform while they hate something because at least they are upset about something that way . Marty will not be fired this season. It's preposterous to even consider it a possibility. He's got too many close friends on this staff and not one of them would take over. It is highly unlikely you'd get rid of Marty before he's completed two seasons on the job and failed in both. Much like Vermeill, but he got a third season and it went well for him. Marty was given $80 million to spend on this team and he spent $52 million. He made the choice to straighten out a certain cap issue in a couple of years by spending less than he was given now, thinking the team would still be competitive and he'd be able to smooth out the needs in the next year or two. Now, it turns out this team isn't playing well and certainly isn't competitive. But, in my mind, this year was less important to Marty than the next several. If this year was as important, he'd have spent that extra cash. Now, his job is simply to show he can motivate this team to lift its level and show up better than it has. He'll be here this year and next year though. Without much question. ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Marty gets at least until mid-season 2002. If it's still the trainwreck then that it is now, I don't see Snyder sitting idly by. But for now Marty's made far too many roster moves, far more of them needed than not, to hang him because his new team isn't performing. Just as people were saying last year that the new faces on the team needed time to gel, the same is true with this year's new but lower profile faces. Those excuses for failure certainly don't have a long shelf life. Plus, markrc99 brings up an excellent point. Snyder has placed his credibility on the line by hiring Marty. Someone as image conscious as him isn't oblivious to teh "meddlesome owner" label. He can't afford to fire "his guy" only a few weeks into his tenure right after he quixotically stuck with a coach he certainly didn't like - Norv - far into that coach's second season under him and seventh with the team. Interesting points, bulldog, about Marty's difference in style between Cleveland and here. I'd attribute to him being rattled by his prior experience in KC where he sacrificed his principles and feels like he got burned by the people around him. He may be holding on too hard to the reigns to compensate. This is where a credible veteran player, like Marco Coleman or Darrel Green should quietly, privately approach him and tell him to loosen up or risk losing the team. ------------------ "Loosen up, Sandy baby. You're just too damn tight!" - John Riggins to Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor ---------------------- "I fear we've awakened a sleeping giant, and filled him with a terrible resolve." - Japanese Imperial Admiral Yamamoto, after hearing that the Japanese declaration of war failed to reach the U.S. government before the attack upon Pearl Harbor [ by redman on September 28, 2001.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 You know, when I was in College, there was this Iron ***** who was a Biology Professor. Everyone from day one knew about her and what a complete pain in the *** she was. In fact, when it was time to take her classes, she had 3 that were pre reqs to general studies, everyone used to fight to get into the other classes. Well, she knew she would be stuck with the students who really didn't want to be in her class. So for the first 2 weeks of the semister, she was a complete B I T C H. I'm talking really bad. Boy, if you breathed funny, she knocked your grade down. It was bad. Then on one Monday, she walked into the class and *BAMF*. The neatest teacher I had my entire college carreer showed up. She said she just couldn't handle people who hated the subject or hated the teacher to be in her class. So she would push out all who were problems or couldn't follow the rules of the class. After that, she was a riot and a blast to be with and to learn from. At the end of the semister, she made everyone promise to keep the IRON ***** rumor going but I can tell you that everyone who stayed in her class not only learned, but we had great time doing it. Not sure how that story completely relates to Marty, but I would suspect Marty is pulling a Mrs B and making sure that there is no one who is even thinking they can dictate how their football career witht he Redskins will go. Marty wants that all to himself. Just a thought. ------------------ "He has a confidence born of demonstrated ability."<IMG SRC="http://www.ideaspot.net/nfl/NFC_East/medium/wash2-med.gif" border=0> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted September 28, 2001 Author Share Posted September 28, 2001 that's fine. the problem for me comes in when I see the veteran free agents we picked up in the offseason and see few if any of them making major contributions to the team. I also have a problem with going into camp with perhaps 4 or 5 players supposedly competing for starting jobs who not only didn't get those jobs but were then shown not to even be worth keeping as backups. You can win games with a hard*** coach as you mentioned above who mellows over time when he gets his players in place. What is problematic is that HIS players outside of Smoot and Gardner and perhaps Brandt don't look all that good right now. Some look like they would be cut outright if ANYONE else was available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I say we give them at least 8 games to see if these guys are busts or not. Coachs can only look at what a guy does in practice and make a decision. Once gametime hits, its up to the player. I say we have a coach here who will pull the plug on anyone who isn't playing up to snuff. For instance, Westbrook and Alexander are playing reasonably well considering what the entire Offense has been through. Well, it wasn't pretty and Marty tanked the QB. Now lets see what happens. Westbrook has one good season when he had good QB to throw to him. He is injured the next and isn't given a chance to prove it was fluke. Alexander didn't become a pro bowler last year because he is horrible and inconsistent and needs to be dumped because he dropped a few passes. If thats the case, I want Samuels and Jansen tanked also because they have both given up sacks this year. Lets relax and let the games be played. I think in the end, we'll be happy. ------------------ "He has a confidence born of demonstrated ability."<IMG SRC="http://www.ideaspot.net/nfl/NFC_East/medium/wash2-med.gif" border=0> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 Bulldog, The Redskins had 17 starters in the starting lineup that were on the roster a year ago. George, Davis, Alexander, Westbrook, Samuels, Raymer, Jansen, Smith, Daddy, Lang, Coleman, Mitchell, Barber, Arrington, Terrell, Shade and Bailey. He filled five roster spots with "HIS" guys. Gardner, Smoot, Szott, Bennett and Brandt/Campbell/Coleman. I don't think we've seen a problem with Marty's guys being an issue to this point. I think Gardner, Smoot and Szott have all played solidly. I think Bennett has done a pretty fair job in the role he's asked to provide. I thought Brandt did a fair job and Campbell got shredded, but, Marty's guys seem to be holding up ok. Samuels has played like dog meat, especially in the second game. Raymer hasn't been very good. Westbrook is running the routes he supposed to run, and I'm not sure we can say he's playing badly, but he is performing badly because of those routes. Coleman and Smith haven't existed on defense. We can go on here, but, the point is, Marty's guys, seem to be holding up and playing well, or at least inspiring hope. Some of the guys Marty didn't bring in are not playing as well as a year ago under Norv. I think there's very little basis to criticize Marty on the moves he's made to fill his starting positions to this point. Jones and Coleman, if they are healthy and can contribute, may even improve this. This team is failing to this point for any number of reasons. NONE of those reasons are because Marty has already failed as the GM. At this point, Marty has failed as a coach, which is an far more damaging thing to say. It's just true. ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKurp Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I don't know Schottenheimer personally so it's hard to say whether there's a method to this madness or whether he's suffering from age-induced dementia. As a Redskin fan I've got to give him the benefit of the doubt...for now. So, I'm going to guess that Marty had time to study successful coaches during his hiatus and in his mind, has created a style that is different from his previous coaching methods. I'm also going to guess that he took at hard look at Tom Coughlin of Jacksonville and is now emulating his style and actions beginning with Coughlin's first year with the Jaguars in 1995. Of course the difference here is that Coughlin was forced to ease up somewhat in his second year or face team mutiny. So while Coughlin has achieved success via trial-by-fire, Marty may be following the same plan by design. One has to hope that this is indeed the case or Synder may have to call the guys in white jackets to come take Marty away. ------------------ "The Kurp" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe a Cowboys fan Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I see marty here 4 years. All he had this year was "his draft" and his staff. Next year he will have something more closely resembling his team. I do agree with several of the other posts. Cuting Marty in his first year would signal doom on the Skins options in the future. He did do something admirable in working on dead money and pruneing dead wood. Dan has been quiet this year so I bet he and Marty have a long term approach skeched out that he is checking stuff off on. No doubt Marty is not having fun yet, this is a high profile job, he wanted the whole ball of wax and he got it. I might be a little serious about it myself if I were in his shoes. Next year the Marty way of doing buisness will not be a shock to the vets and the new guys will follow the vets lead. Four years, thats my predicction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TooDeep Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I believe that the fact you are even discussing this exemplifies your wavering under fire. From a bystanders point of view you guys cave quicker than any other fans. Yopu have played two regular season games with this coach as the leader. While I feel he is a shell of the man he once was, to bail on him now shows a lack of character on the part of the fans here. To even bring this subject up without getting a quality sample of what he can do is ridiculous. Now slam me for being an outsider. But you guys treated Norv this way. Every week if he won he was fine but that damn defensive coordinator was the problem. Then when you would lose it was the problem of Norv. Standing fast in the face of adversity seems to be a rare quality in these parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 I was against Marty's hiring but was willing to give him his chance. You have to give him until late 2002 at least. If Synder fires him after this season, who will Dannyboy get? Do you think any credible coach in their right mind would come here. We'd get stuck with another Norv or someone of the calibur of Ritchie Kotite. No if Marty must go then Snhyder should go along with him. That's right; Snyder should sell the team and let someone else run the show if his choice fails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted September 28, 2001 Share Posted September 28, 2001 In Too Deep, I realize you don't follow the sport very closely, but, in case you didn't know, Norv had seven years in Washington and was very popular early despite the losses. He didn't become a pariah until the team continued to underperform under his leadership and more and more fans turned on him as the years went by. As we've demonstrated on this board and so aptly pointed out on your board, Redskin fans are realistic and honest about the performance of their favorite team and we don't hold back when we feel there is something wrong. You, like so many of your buddies, seem to think there is some merit in losing and some silver lining to being 0-2. I know you don't have the guts to question your team and you prefer to utter phrases like Carter is the true stud of all rookie quarterbacks, but, when you criticize people here for being critical of the Redskins, it just further drives home the point that we remain grounded in some semblance of reality while you are caught up in the cloud of (insert drug joke here) smoke coming out of Vally Ranch. ------------------ Doom is in the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VoR Posted September 29, 2001 Share Posted September 29, 2001 If Marty does not at least match Butch Davis' record, he's outta here. <IMG SRC="http://www.contrabandent.com/pez1/otn/alienz/abduct.gif" border=0> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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