Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, PeterMP said: Episode 9 is going to be interesting at that level. You have episode 7 that seems to raise lots of interesting questions. You essentially see all of those questions thrown away in episode 8. And now you are going to bring the guy that did episode 8 and has a history of being able to raise questions, but less of a history of actually being able to finish a story being asked to close a story loop. A lot of it was left open-ended. For example, we don't know if Kylo was telling the truth about Rey's parents or just preying on her insecurities to seduce her. JJ can go back on that pretty easily if he wanted to and wouldn't quite be out of left field. There needs to be a time skip imo to account for Leia dying and a reborn, inspired rebellion after the events of TLJ. Maybe they can use that time to give Poe and FInn some real stuff to do. Edited June 4, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 (edited) I think part of the problem with Episode 8, or the way it received was because Episode 7 felt so safe and OT-like, that people went into Episode 8 expecting a darker movie but for the most part knowing what notes it would hit and it totally just went random. Good or bad I think it felt like it's own thing and not something that Episode 7, nor the entire Saga up that point, had prepared the viewers for. Episode 7 to me felt like it was JJ Abrams doing three movies (Eps 1-3) worth of damage control. Basically proving to the fanbase that a new Star Wars movie could be made in the vein of the OT. Then Episode 8 comes along and says, "oh yeah? Well screw what JJ Abrams thought, here's what I think" I've argued with my friend who loved it, that it's not that I felt Episode 8 was a bad movie, it is more that it feels out of place and out of the realm of the Star Wars Saga foundation that has been previous setup. I honestly feel that a lot of the "out of the box" decision making in Episode 8 would have been served to open a new trilogy rather than be the middle movie, because in this case you already had Episode 7 telling the fanbase to expect some things, that Episode 8 casts aside. Will be interesting to see which side Episode 9 takes to wrap up this trilogy. As an aside note: as far as Snoke being offed due to Hubris? For me it is a tough sell to compare that to when Vader betrayed the Emperor. For starters, by that time Vader was arguably the stronger one of the two anyway, they had basically been on the verge of crushing the Rebellion for good and Luke was about to be killed. You compare this to Kylo and where he was in his "Sith" training, I just don't find it plausible that he is mind-tricking anyone at that point. Edited June 4, 2018 by NoCalMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 (edited) It’s the tale of the Sith. They all do it. None of them seemingly are aware of their imminent death. Vader tells Luke that the Emperor foresaw Luke defeating him and offers his hand to Luke to overthrow the emperor. And he hid these feelings from the emperor the entire time. The emperor can detect halfway across the galaxy that Luke is Vader’s son but can’t tell Vader is going to turn on him? He knows Vader better than anyone has or ever does Edited June 4, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: It’s the tale of the Sith. They all do it. None of them seemingly are aware of their imminent death. Vader tells Luke that the Emperor foresaw Luke defeating him and offers his hand to Luke to overthrow the emperor. And he hid these feelings from the emperor the entire time. The emperor can detect halfway across the galaxy that Luke is Vader’s son but can’t tell Vader is going to turn on him? He knows Vader better than anyone has or ever does They are aware, but the point is that they die when the apprentice has become stronger and is able to kill them. The point is that Emperor has become weaker to the point that Vader and Luke are strong then him. It isn't just that he misses Vader turning on him. He's completely missed what is going to happen on the Endor moon and the Death Star. This was a man that in his prime was capable of seeing decades into the future to make plans that come to fruition (setting up the Clone Army for the Jedi and embedding order 66). Now that he's aged, he doesn't just not see Vader is going to turn on him, he doesn't even see that the battle of Endor and for the Death Star itself is going to go the Rebellion's way. He's much weaker than he was. (Realistically, he's where Yoda is during the prequels, but Yoda at least realizes that his ability to see the future is not very good. The Emperor thinks he still has the same power that he did.) (I should also point that we don't know if Vader is serious about trying to team up with Luke and over throw the Emperor. Given that he then turns Luke over to Vader that it was a lie to test Luke.) That does not at least appear to be the case with Snoke and Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren is still the apprentice and has not even completed his training in turning to the Dark Side (for which it appears he has to kill Rey). Vader was fully formed and turned Sith and had been for decades. While he might plot to kill the Emperor, he was unlikely to do it in a manner where turned from the dark side. And Snoke isn't Sith so he's not necessarily committed to the same ending that the Sith are. 3 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: The only part of this i don't think was explained in movie was Leia and that was easily the dumbest, cheesiest part of that movie. She should have died there imo. Think it would have been a better exit for her and a great moment for Kylo's character being that he was about to pull the trigger and backed off only to have his wingman that he told to follow him end up killing her. Rey is able to fight with Kylo because she showed throughout the movie she was quite adept at CQC and staff combat. In addition to that, Finn got in a good shot on Kylo in their fight which was after Chewie shot Kylo with a bowcaster. Earlier in the movie that same weapon blew a stormtrooper 50ft into the air. Kylo was badly wounded and bleeding out during his fight with Rey. Not to mention he was overconfident and barely swinging his lightsaber with one arm. He didn't fear her or take her as a serious threat to him. Above all, he didn't want to kill her. He wanted to train her so his fighting reflected that. She found an opening and caught him across the face. I thought all of this was reflected pretty well throughout the movie and into their fight. Rey was also dripping force power at this point in the movie having been awakened to it earlier after first touching the lightsaber. As for Snoke, it's probably the same reason why the Emperor was so powerful but couldn't see Vader betraying him. Hubris. It is the way the Sith have always been written. The apprentice kills the master. The master doesn't see it regardless of how powerful he thinks he is. At the beginning of the fight Kylo shows he's plenty strong to beat Rey. He simply throws her up against a tree, which she has absolutely no answer for, and she still has no answer for that sort of power when she faces Snoke in the 2nd movie. Even after time and meeting with Luke, she still has no answer for the type of power Snoke (and Kylo) can throw at her. There's no reason to think that she should have been able to beat Kylo Ren even if he was not trying. Rey is this weird combination of powerful and weak (and so is Klyo Ren), which makes sense in the context of things are happening as the force wills it, which also then becomes a nice explanation for what happened with Leia. Which also matches what somebody that works for Disney on Star Wars said is part of their philosophy on the force and Star Wars universe. (And Snoke isn't Sith.) Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, PeterMP said: (And Snoke isn't Sith.) Huh? Wha??? Now I'm lost. And Finn should've died in TLJ. Stupid disney, wipes out the entire cast of Rouge One but won't take out a guy who likely isn't even Rey's love interest anymore. Sooooo weeeaaak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: Huh? Wha??? Now I'm lost. And Finn should've died in TLJ. Stupid disney, wipes out the entire cast of Rouge One but won't take out a guy who likely isn't even Rey's love interest anymore. Sooooo weeeaaak. https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-snoke-kylo-ren-sith-master-apprentice/ @Momma There Goes That Man Sort with the same thing that happened in the TLJ thread with respect to the end of the ROTJ. Here we have somebody that is close to the creators of the story saying this is a key component of their story telling. Why do you need to go out and look for other explanations when things happen other than what they've told you is part of the story? Your explanation requires some sort of weird combination of things where Kylo Ren is badly injured and dying and the planet is falling apart around him, but he's still over confident in his fight with Rey and he's already shown he can easily beat her simply by throwing her around like a rag doll. If you're badly injured, bleeding out, and the planet is falling apart around you, are also going to be over confident? Vs. He can't beat Rey because the Force will not allow it when somebody close to the story creators has told you that things happen because the force allows it (or not). Why go out of the way to create this, well he's injured and bleeding out, but he's still over confident when you have a perfectly good explanation in front of you that has been endorsed by somebody that knows the story creators? Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 18 minutes ago, PeterMP said: At the beginning of the fight Kylo shows he's plenty strong to beat Rey. He simply throws her up against a tree, which she has absolutely no answer for, and she still has no answer for that sort of power when she faces Snoke in the 2nd movie. It’s a movie conceit. Multiple people could this in every movie yet they choose to fight with space swords instead. He got her out of the way with the toss so so he could fight Finn 1v1 and then he fought Rey 1v1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, PeterMP said: https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-snoke-kylo-ren-sith-master-apprentice/ You having to send me an article should be enough to show this franchise is doing a terrible job of just doing whatever they want to do and explaining it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 8 minutes ago, PeterMP said: https://www.cbr.com/star-wars-last-jedi-snoke-kylo-ren-sith-master-apprentice/ I had read something similar before and forgot. Thanks for reminding me. So they aren’t Sith but still, is it really that different to the point that si many powerful people before were unable to see their imminent betrayal? 22 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Which also matches what somebody that works for Disney on Star Wars said is part of their philosophy on the force and Star Wars universe. Well that is a legit criticism of the ST because that aspect of the force isn’t explained in those movies. But I still didn’t have a problem with the Kylo/Rey fight based on what was portrayed in the movie. Kylo could have tossed all of Snoke’s guards around the room like he did Rey right? But he didn’t because it makes for a bad movie and fight scene. It wasn’t because the force willed him to fight them or willed those guards to be on equal footing for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 27 minutes ago, PeterMP said: That does not at least appear to be the case with Snoke and Kylo Ren. Kylo Ren is still the apprentice and has not even completed his training in turning to the Dark Side (for which it appears he has to kill Rey). Vader was fully formed and turned Sith and had been for decades. While he might plot to kill the Emperor, he was unlikely to do it in a manner where turned from the dark side. Can it not be that Snoke is old like the Emperor and thus slipping a bit? It’s ESB when the Emperor says Luke is the son of Anakin, right? How much time passes between that and ROTJ for him to lose that foresight? Snoke hadnt shown anything close to the same level of foresight that the emperor did. All he did was rightly predict that two hot young people of similar age and emotional stability would form a connection if he gave them the chance. I could have guessed that, it was called high school. I just don’t get why it’s so crazy Kylo could have outmaneuvered him. He clearly missed how pissed Kylo was earlier after he repeatedly scolds him. It was stupid for the audience that maybe Snoke was losing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Can it not be that Snoke is old like the Emperor and thus slipping a bit? It’s ESB when the Emperor says Luke is the son of Anakin, right? How much time passes between that and ROTJ for him to lose that foresight? Snoke hadnt shown anything close to the same level of foresight that the emperor did. All he did was rightly predict that two hot young people of similar age and emotional stability would form a connection if he gave them the chance. I could have guessed that, it was called high school. I just don’t get why it’s so crazy Kylo could have outmaneuvered him. He clearly missed how pissed Kylo was earlier after he repeatedly scolds him. It was stupid for the audience that maybe Snoke was losing him. You are assuming that the Emperor only knows that Luke is Anakin's son only through foresight. After all, the guy went by Luke Skywalker and was raised on Tatooine. Everybody in the rebellion knows his name, and Vader knows the person that destroyed the Death Star was strong in the force.. The Emperor certainly had spies in the rebellion. Given a little background checking, it wouldn't have taken too much to put together that Luke was like Anakin's son. (And I'll point out, even if he only knows it through the force, you also see his weakness there as he does not appear to see the existence of Leia.) About 1 year passes between the movies. Yes it is possible, but again, you are searching for an answer (and making assumptions in doing so), while ignoring something we've been told is a key to the story's creators thinking. Why? Given what we've been told about the way the story tellers think, Kylo Ren was able to kill Snoke because that was the force's will. Why do we need to go through, well Snoke was X old when he seduced Kylo Ren under Luke's nose, and he's still able to do things like create long distance connections between people without them knowing he's doing it, etc, but he's weak enough that he can't see that Kylo Ren is going to kill him? Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, PeterMP said: Why? Because the answer provided (the force wills it) is not shown or implied in any of the movies so I don’t accept that. However, there are several other legitimate reasons for these things hat are shown in the movies 23 minutes ago, PeterMP said: And I'll point out, even if he only knows it through the force, you also see his weakness there as he does not appear to see the existence of Leia.) The same can be said of Snoke tho. He see some things and misses others. Why is it so unbelievable that he could have missed Kylo or underestimated him while gloating during what he thought was his moment of victory, wiping out Luke’s apprentice Edited June 5, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Because the answer provided (the force wills it) is not shown or implied in any of the movies so I don’t accept that. However, there are several other legitimate reasons for these things hat are shown in the movies The same can be said of Snoke tho. He see some things and misses others. Why is it so unbelievable that he could have missed Kylo or underestimated him while gloating during what he thought was his moment of victory, wiping out Luke’s apprentice Sure it is implied. It is the most likely explanation for all of it vs. you having to piece together separate things for all of them that don't make any sense even individually. Leia lived. Why/how? What does Snoke miss? What we see is a Snoke that is very very powerful (until the moment he's killed, and then he looks like an idiot). In the OT, we don't see the Emperor exert any force power other than the force lightning and that doesn't even kill Luke quickly. I think you are trying to hard to make sense of movies that have a story motivation behind them does not fit into your way of thinking, especially considering we have been told by somebody close to the story creators that there is an explanation to it that makes it all fit together. Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) We saw in Star Wars what happened to Obi Wan's ability to control the force. He can barely control his light saber. And the Emperor is older than he is. The Emperor was also a more powerful force user, but ~5 additional years have passed in between episodes 3 and 6. Snoke is still using the force very well up to the point that he's killed. We really have little reason to believe the Emperor is actually a strong force when he gets killed by Vader. We have plenty of good reasons to believe that Snoke is still a strong force user when he gets killed. Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 I had an idea that JJ should start 9 off like this. Finn awakens from a bacta induced dream where the fleet was being tracked through hyperspace & running out of gas, Leia flew through the cold of space, he ended up in a scifi version of Casino Royal that no one cared about with a not that hot Asian chick, & Poe let him keep his jacket. JJ can hit the rest button by playing the Who Shot JR card & get back to telling his story. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, Momma There Goes That Man said: Kylo could have tossed all of Snoke’s guards around the room like he did Rey right? But he didn’t because it makes for a bad movie and fight scene. It wasn’t because the force willed him to fight them or willed those guards to be on equal footing for him. If you are limiting what your characters are doing just to make good fight scenes that are not some how based on the foundations of the reality of your story, then you are making bad movies. Now, in this context, I took it that Kylo Ren just didn't throw all of the guards around as a limit to Kylo Ren's power. He doesn't have the power to throw multiple people around at a time and throwing one person around takes a lot of effort from him, which would lead him vulnerable to attack from others. This also jives with what see with respect to the Rey/Finn/Kylo fight. He recognizes that Rey is the more dangerous opponent and throws her against the tree. This then leaves him to fight Finn in a traditional manner. The other possibility is that they have some ability to use the force are able to resist efforts to throw them around, Klylo knows this and so simply does not try. (Now, I will point out that I think there is a lot of sloppy story telling in these movies, which is why I said that I think the crutch of the force willed it has seeped into the rest of their story telling. But if your argument is that they are just bad at telling stories, then I don't see why you'd complain that something that hasn't clearly been articulated as a key component to their universe hasn't been clearly/specifically stated in the story. Bad story tellers are going to leave things like that out. Which is my larger point, that they've lost a sense of reality and basic things like consequences have actions. Anybody can do anything or not do anything necessary at any point in time based on what the story demands. You're just excusing it to well, they do it to for certain things (make good fight scenes), what I'm saying is that based on what we've been told, we don't need that as a reason. We've been told that they have an underlying foundation to their universe that makes it so. The end result is still bad story telling though.) Edited June 5, 2018 by PeterMP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elessar78 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 I enjoyed the Solo movie. Much more than Last Jedi. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 I bet Tobias Beckett and Major Derlin used to frequent the same cantina. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Has it been confirmed or not whether all those top red guard people were in fact the Knights of Ren? Didn't someone in TLJ say when Kylo left Luke he took others with him. Were those the elite red guards or were they as of yet people that haven't been shown in the trilogy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 47 minutes ago, PeterMP said: The end result is still bad story telling though.) I'm enjoying this discussion...impressive! Your last line reminded me of this...hahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 hour ago, NoCalMike said: Has it been confirmed or not whether all those top red guard people were in fact the Knights of Ren? Didn't someone in TLJ say when Kylo left Luke he took others with him. Were those the elite red guards or were they as of yet people that haven't been shown in the trilogy? No. The Praetorian Guard were the dudes in red. Only timw in the movies that we've seen the Knights of Ren is in Rey's vision. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 http://i.imgur.com/fOASL1gh.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 (edited) On 6/4/2018 at 11:18 PM, PeterMP said: We really have little reason to believe the Emperor is actually a strong force when he gets killed by Vader. But he is still strong enough to fatally wound Vader after a few seconds of force lightning. Maybe that speaks more to Vader being weak at that point since Luke took more and was ok. Edited June 6, 2018 by Momma There Goes That Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 On 6/4/2018 at 10:57 PM, PeterMP said: What does Snoke miss? What we see is a Snoke that is very very powerful (until the moment he's killed, and then he looks like an idiot). The only miss we are shown is the moment of his death. But we are also shown in both TFA and TLJ that Kylo is more skilled in the force than anyone has shown to be in any of the movies previously. So i don't think it's difficult to believe he was able to hide his intentions from Snoke or that he was even stronger than Snoke had imagined. On 6/4/2018 at 10:57 PM, PeterMP said: I think you are trying to hard to make sense of movies that have a story motivation behind them does not fit into your way of thinking, especially considering we have been told by somebody close to the story creators that there is an explanation to it that makes it all fit together. I am stating that in any movie, if we have to use explanations from the creators after the fact, it is bad writing. There is no other way. However, I think the movies give reasons for all of those instances we discussed previously that are better than "the force wills it" which to me, basically ruins Star Wars 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momma There Goes That Man Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 On 6/5/2018 at 10:01 AM, PeterMP said: If you are limiting what your characters are doing just to make good fight scenes that are not some how based on the foundations of the reality of your story, then you are making bad movies. Kylo has shown he can paralyze people. Why wouldn't he just freeze Finn, Rey, Han or anyone in a 1v1 fight he had and then kill them while they can't move? He doesn't use his powers in that way and nobody else does either because it's a Star Wars movie and we need to have epic lightsaber fights. That is what I mean by it being a movie conceit. I agree that ideally, you want your plot to correctly line up with the characters and their abilities logically. That doesn't always happen. We see this in Marvel movies too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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