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All Things Star Wars Thread -- Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker


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3 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

Ok, please explain to me, using peer reviewed articles, the physics of collisions at light speed.

 

Is it not believable that Snoke underestimated Ren? At all?

 

I didn't have to say it had to be scientifically accurate.  I said it had to be logical.  As pointed out above, if hitting things at light speed were possible and did damage (as shown in the movie and would be expected based on what we know), then that would be the basis of lots of weapons in the universe, and we would likely have seen it before, or the Resistance would have thought of using 1 of the first 3 ships that they lost in that manner.

 

Generally, no (though I'll add in the exception later).  Kylo Ren and Rey appear to be about equals.  Snoke is clearly much more powerful than Rey.  She's completely powerless to Snoke in every way.  He completely physically and mentally over whelms her and not only extracts where Luke is from her pretty quickly, but also the state of his existence (waiting to die so that the Jedi will be ended).

 

On top of that, we have seen no evidence that Kylo Ren is good at controlling his emotions or controlling his mind to Snoke.  If anything, we see the opposite.  Kylo Ren is an extremely emotional person whose mind is an open book to Snoke (Snoke realizes that Kylo is wondering why he keeps Hux.  Snoke open the link between Kylo and Rey without him realizing, etc.).

 

That Kylo Ren in the throne room comes to a realization that Snoke is his true enemy and decides to kill him and is able to hide it from Snoke is not really believable.


EXCEPT-  There was an interview where somebody that did some of the voice work (for Rebels, I think) said that things happen because the Force wills it.  In working for Disney and the people in charge of the Star Wars for Disney, that the force was in control and that the concept that the Force is something people use is flawed.  In that case, then whatever the Force wills becomes acceptable.  But to me, that creates bad story telling and makes character motivations irrelevant.  Why did person X do thing Y?  The Force willed it.

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11 hours ago, TK said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

An important thing here though is Kanan is a Jedi and we see use the force regularly to do all sorts of different things.

 

There is no sense in these stories that Leia is much of a Force user.  The only thing we see her do, other than fly back into the ship, is sense when something is happening with people she has a close emotional attachment to.

 

Even at the end, when they run into the rocks, Poe's sense is we're doomed.  There is no sense that Leia is going to be able to use the force to move the rocks (even a few at a time, much less all at once like Rey does).

 

Through out the story, there is no sense among the Resistance that Leia has much force power.  You wouldn't expect Leia to pull a lightsaber out and defeat an Inquisitor (or Kylo Ren) either.  They may as well have had Leia pull out a light saber and kill Kylo Ren at the end of the movie.

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10 hours ago, TD_washingtonredskins said:

One point about the "if x is possible why is y the first time we see it" mentality...

 

We are seeing a sliver of all the events in this universe. How do we know that this is the first time someone has flown a ship into another ship? Maybe it's been done before but some people like to try to survive battles so they don't do it all the time? 

 

I hate to bring horrific real-world events into this, but Japanese pilots used this technique a lot during World War II, right? Why did nobody really do it again until 9/11 to pull off a terrorist attack?

There isn't a requirement for it to be a suicide run.  Fly it by remote.  Heck, they did that in Rogue Squadron 3 as part of an surprise attack on the Fondor Ship Yards.  Escorted a "captured" rebel GR 75 medium transport with stolen TIE hunters claiming asking for permission to dock.  But instead,  the unmanned transport had been programmed to crash into one of the shield generators.  Why bother with all the pretence when they could've just rammed it in hyperspace and taken out the whole shipyard without a dogfight?

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1 hour ago, PokerPacker said:

There isn't a requirement for it to be a suicide run.  Fly it by remote.  Heck, they did that in Rogue Squadron 3 as part of an surprise attack on the Fondor Ship Yards.  Escorted a "captured" rebel GR 75 medium transport with stolen TIE hunters claiming asking for permission to dock.  But instead,  the unmanned transport had been programmed to crash into one of the shield generators.  Why bother with all the pretence when they could've just rammed it in hyperspace and taken out the whole shipyard without a dogfight?

 

Seriously? How many people read this? You think the filmmakers are going to read every book?

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1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Seriously? How many people read this? You think the filmmakers are going to read every book?

 

Look, I guess this depends on your POV.  Certainly, you see series like James Bond where between the movies and books things don't make sense.  But for a long time Star Wars was not like that.  What you've seen with Solo is what drives the market for these movies is the hard core fans that go see the movies multiple times (many times multiple times opening weekend), which then drives the hype of the movies.  And one of the things that has attracted many fans to these stories is their being a consistent logical universe.  They've lost that pretty big time

 

(and to me the hyperspace jump is a smaller piece of it.  I get stuck on, what has ghost Yoda been doing all of this time, especially if he can interact with the physical world?  But I mean even, when Luke started taking on students, wouldn't it have been a good idea to sit and down and say, hey, if you go this route, you are going to lose students to the dark side.  There will be failure.  But you don't have to let that failure define you.  You can learn from it.  And you need to have a plan for when you do lose a student to the dark side. And he and Obi Wan could talk about their own experiences losing people.  You waited until 20 years after he lost student and that person had killed who knows how many people to have the conversation?)

 

If Disney wants to keep Star Wars special, they need to work really hard to retain there being a consistent logical universe in between stories.  If they are fine if it becomes like James Bond, then I guess they don't.

 

With that said, I do not expect Johnson to read every book, but some combination of people who are very familiar with their universe (from reading the books, etc.) should be looking at ideas for the movies and be saying, this doesn't work.  IMO, I suspect long term having people doing that would actually pay off better for Disney.

 

If it becomes, well here's another Star Wars movie that may or may not make much sense in the context of the other movies and books I've read, then they are going to lose hard core fans, lose people seeing movies multiple times, and lose the hype that drives others to be interested.

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1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Seriously? How many people read this? You think the filmmakers are going to read every book?

It was a video game (rogue squadron was awesome).  Anyways, the point is that some form of automation or remote control is not difficult to achieve so there's not even a need to send a droid to its death.  I was merely giving an in-universe example of it.

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9 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

then they are going to lose hard core fans

 

You know why? Because they're impossible to please. Utterly and quite literally impossible.

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2 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

You know why? Because they're impossible to please. Utterly and quite literally impossible.

 

I 100% disagree.  The hard core fans just want good logically consistent stories.  There were good stories here to be told that would have fit in the universe that the hard core fans would have eaten up.  Disney just didn't have people that could find those stories.

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Just now, PeterMP said:

The hard core fans just want good logically consistent stories.

 

Nope. Nothing would have pleased them. Nothing. These clowns are the ones that cause actors to end their social media accounts.

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8 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Nope. Nothing would have pleased them. Nothing. These clowns are the ones that cause actors to end their social media accounts.

 

Okay, there are hard core fans that go see movies multiple times open weekends that don't harass actresses over their sex, looks, and ethnicity.

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Like I said, people had 30+ years of buildup to what a post ROTJ world and story would be. They were never going to please those fans so anything different than what they wanted and expected has its flaws magnified a hundred times over what it should be while flaws of the previous movies are glossed over because those movies were perfect because they were 10 when they saw them 

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16 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

Like I said, people had 30+ years of buildup to what a post ROTJ world and story would be. They were never going to please those fans so anything different than what they wanted and expected has its flaws magnified a hundred times over what it should be while flaws of the previous movies are glossed over because those movies were perfect because they were 10 when they saw them 

Star Wars: So Darth Vader never thought to look on Tatooine...where he was from...and has relatives? Never thought for a second. "Wait a tick. Why are they going to Tatooine. Where I'm from. With the stolen plans. I wonder if anyone I know is down there..."

ESB: Dude kisses his sister. Nuff Said. Never again addressed. Like that episode of Saved by the Bell when Zack and Lisa start dating. If Boba Fett is trailing the Falcon, how did the Empire arrive just before they did? How long was Luke on Dagobah? Why didn't Vader just kill Han, Leia et al?

ROTJ: Why the **** did Master Jedi Luke need to throw a rock to kill the Rancor? Why did Master Jedi Luke need to kick the guns to destroy the barge? Force kick! Boba Fett goes out like a ****. ****ing Ewoks.

 

Need I say anymore?

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3 minutes ago, Mournblade said:

Which leads us to wonder, was George Lucas actually a good director? Or a giant super-fraud?

 

George Lucas:OT::Nic Cage:Leaving Las Vegas.

 

The idea is creative and the Original Trilogy was great. The PT were hot garbage that missed some major points for me: mostly glossing over the Jedi Purge. That could be an entire movie. Vader hunting down the Jedi, with some badass Purge Soldiers?

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14 minutes ago, Mournblade said:

Which leads us to wonder, was George Lucas actually a good director? Or a giant super-fraud?

I view Lucas a lot like I view Gene Roddenbury. Roddenbury was one of the best plotters or idea men of his generations. He wasn't a great writer though. Luckily, Twilight Zone and Star Trek had others to do the actual screenwriting. Lucas is also a really good idea man. Star Wars, Tucker, Tuskegee Airmen, American Graffiti, Indiana Jones, even Willow were all great story ideas, but Lucas' best films were almost always the one where he handed off his idea to someone else.

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10 hours ago, Riggo#44 said:

Star Wars: So Darth Vader never thought to look on Tatooine...where he was from...and has relatives? Never thought for a second. "Wait a tick. Why are they going to Tatooine. Where I'm from. With the stolen plans. I wonder if anyone I know is down there..."

ESB: Dude kisses his sister. Nuff Said. Never again addressed. Like that episode of Saved by the Bell when Zack and Lisa start dating. If Boba Fett is trailing the Falcon, how did the Empire arrive just before they did? How long was Luke on Dagobah? Why didn't Vader just kill Han, Leia et al?

ROTJ: Why the **** did Master Jedi Luke need to throw a rock to kill the Rancor? Why did Master Jedi Luke need to kick the guns to destroy the barge? Force kick! Boba Fett goes out like a ****. ****ing Ewoks.

 

Need I say anymore?

 

1.  It isn't like he knew they were going there to look before they got there.  Certainly, once they are there, they look.  You are acting like they just took Leia and her ship and flew away from Tatooine.  He also didn't consider his half-brother family and didn't like him after allowing his mother to be killed. 

 

2.  Not sure the issue.

 

3.  The Falcon is headed there because it is having issues with its hyper drive, which means that it was going to take a long time to get there.  Once Bobba Fett knows their direction, he can see what's in the direction they are headed and alert Vader who can then easily beat them there because he's on ships that have completely functional hyper drives.  Especially given that Lando and Han have a history, it isn't hard to figure that's somewhere he'd go also once you know the direction he's going.

 

4.  Because he needs them to set the trap to get Luke, and if they are dead, Luke might sense it and just go or not come (In fact, it is Han's torture that Luke seems to sense in the first place.).

 

5.  Not sure, but not sure why those are really major plot holes.  (Those seem like complaining about why Hux didn't use TIE fighters to go after unarmed transports, Snoke doesn't just kill Rey himself, how long Rey was with Luke, how Phasma dies, or why Kylo Ren doesn't use the force to smash his helmet, why any Jedi does anything with their arms or legs, why even bother to hold the light saber in your hands.)

 

And I'm not saying there aren't issues with the original 3.  Any SciFy movie you can pick apart if you try, but they aren't as glaringly obvious as TLJ.

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TLJ just isn't a very good movie, especially in the larger context of the Star Wars universe. 

 

Realistically, @Momma There Goes That Man's logic could be applied to TFA.  People had years of build up between ROTJ and TFA and while I know a lot of people didn't love TFA, the over all initial reaction wasn't as negative and plenty of people were excited about and went to see TLJ early (and Rouge One).  People don't hate it the way they do TLJ because the plot holes weren't as large or as glaring.

 

If the point well, they they were going to hate whatever you did was true, then there should have been the same negative response quickly from TFA and TLJ should have "flopped", but that's not what happened.

 

What happened was TFA was a pretty good move and people said, okay that's okay, we'll keep going see Star Wars movies and treat them as a big deal based on that.  Rouge One- that's a good moive.  We'll keep seeing Star Wars movies and treating them as a big deal based on that.  Okay, we're all excited to see TLJ.  Let's get our tickets for opening weekend months in advance.   Okay, that wasn't a very good movie and was full of holes.  Maybe we don't need to treat Star Wars movies as special any more.

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2 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Realistically, @Momma There Goes That Man's logic could be applied to TFA.

 

People whined about that one too, called it a rehash of A New Hope. And to your point, no, people did not lineup to see TLJ, and there was backlash, it made $730M less than TFA.

 

TFA box office, world wide: $2.068B: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm

TLJ box office, world wide: $1.332B: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

 

People are going to nitpick the most minute details and whine. Doesn't matter what they do. TFA was a rehash of ANH, people wanted a new story, got a new story, and whined even more.

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27 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

People whined about that one too, called it a rehash of A New Hope. And to your point, no, people did not lineup to see TLJ, and there was backlash, it made $730M less than TFA.

 

TFA box office, world wide: $2.068B: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars7.htm

TLJ box office, world wide: $1.332B: http://boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=starwars8.htm

 

People are going to nitpick the most minute details and whine. Doesn't matter what they do. TFA was a rehash of ANH, people wanted a new story, got a new story, and whined even more.

 

TFA has a 87% audience score on Rotten Tomatoes.  TLJ is at 46%.  Clearly, they didn't generate the same backlash or the same response among the hard core fans.  (And that's despite the fact that the TLJ actually has a higher critic score).

 

And what you are seeing in the final numbers is a lot less 3rd and 4th viewing by hard core fans.  You can't deny that tickets were booked up for months ahead of the opening.  What you see is that TFA and TLJ open pretty much to the same dollar figures (Thursday and Friday), and then from there they separate (because TLJ isn't a very good movies and that spread and people weren't as excited about it to see it multiple times or to draw other people in).

 

People didn't hate TFA.  Like I said, it was okay.  I think they could have done some even little things to make it much better.  TLJ was bad.

26 minutes ago, Mr. Sinister said:

That's actually how I felt at the end of The Force Awakens, which is why I chose no to see The Last Jedi in theaters.

 

I essentially see no non-kids non-Star Wars movies in the theater any more.  My kids don't really like Star Wars (both girls and more Harry Potter people).

 

TFA was okay.  I saw it twice.  I liked Rouge One a lot and that got me excited for TLJ.  I saw TLJ once in the theater.  Decided it was bad enough that I didn't need to see it again and am not going out of my way to see more unless people say they are great..

 

I haven't seen the Solo movie.

 

(Though, I am actually somewhat curious to see how JJ finishes things off after Johnson just sort of threw away all of the pieces he'd established.)

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