Awesome Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Clearly, this Sunday was the best game played by the o-line. They were cohesive, blocked well, didn't miss assignments, committed NO penalties and basically controlled the line of scrimmage for the better part of the game. Now, that was also the first game that Friedman played center. We all agreed the Skins' o-line had its best pre-season performance against Baltimore when, yep, Lennie Friedman played center. Seems to me, the o-line is a much-improved unit with Friedman at center rather than Moore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB81 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Completely agree with you...as does the coaching staff: "Center Larry Moore said he hopes to play at Carolina after sitting out the Seattle win because of a sprained foot. But Lennie Friedman played well at center, so the Redskins probably won't rush Moore back." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23896-2003Nov10.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I was watching the game with m,y uncle this weekend, and he commented that sometimes the best center isnt the better blocker, but the guy who can read the Dline better and make the adjustments. I think Lenny is our guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I think the improved play of the offense was a factor of both the change in strategy in having Jackson call the plays, utilizing the rolling pocket and the shorter pass in the first half to confuse the Seahawks who obviously didn't see this on the films AND the fact the Redskins got a team in Seattle whose offensive and defensive lines were good matches for the Skins The Skins d-line was NOT overmatched by the Seahawks. We got much better pressure Sunday than in any of the last 4 or 5 games. On the other side of the ball, the Skins were able to run the ball and were able to keep both Chad Brown and John Randle in check. When you win the battle on both sides of the line you are usually going to win the game Let's see what we get against Carolina. Rucker and Peppers are pair of wrecking balls on the DL and the Skins are really going to have to reach down to compete for 60 minutes against these guys. Moore vs. Friedman? I would submit that neither player is above average. Friedman, however, does seem to get the job done for a guy that only shifted to center this past summer. At 6'3 and 285 one has to question his ability to endure the rigors of starting against DTs that are 330 and 340 week in and week out. Moore is a okay player. He is versatile and on a championship team would appear to be best suited to being the swing backup at LG and C. Here he is starting. There is a meaning in there somewhere. Just as there is with the fact the Redskins are starting a player at tight end, Zeron Flemister, who failed to impress the Browns when released earlier in the season and who was cut within a week of being signed there. It all comes down to personnel. And we are critically short at some spots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor The Invincible Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 if Carolina only rushes with their front four throughout the game, I think we'll win. I think our O-line, by itself, is just fine. But when teams come up to the line and bring their LBs and safeties in with the D-line, thats when we get confused and miss a block and suddenly our QB is on the grass. Our O-line might not be able to handle their D-line consistantly, but I think we'll be able to contain them to an extent. To beat the Redskins, all a team has to do is keep blitzing. Though maybe with Jackson calling the plays more and more, he can take advantage of the blitzes more than Spurrier seemed able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 well, I have been watching the NFL long enough to know that if your running back is averaging 5 or 6 yards a carry, the defense is not going to be able to blitz 8 or 9 very often as Dallas did two weeks ago the Redskins were 1 for 11 in third down conversions against Dallas and the average distance for conversion was SEVEN yards 3rd and 7 is not the position you want to put yourself in with a young qb and young rbs that are still feeling their way in the NFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I remember in the Dallas game, Moore was getting pushed around like a geek about to lose his lunch money. It was sad. Friedman has impressed...so why not keep him in? Also...I'm more impressed w/ Dockery. He is playing well for his first season, and has stepped up into the shoes of the ailing Fiore. And, Skeletor, and everyone else who thinks the blitz is the way to beat the skins, then just remember this stat from Sunday: 158 yds rushing, 5.8 ypc. That will stop any blitz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 yes, the Skins line did play better. but in Moore's defense Friedman was not facing LaRoi Glover on Sunday against Seattle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeletor The Invincible Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 The run won't necessarily stop the blitz, they can blitz and stop the run at the same time, ie, run blitzing. They could hit the RB in the backfield. What WILL stop the blitz, though, is quick passes:Screens, Slants, and Outs,in the direction of the blitz, which could go for big gains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Couple of things. First, Freak, you keep writing that we had a 5.8 yard average and we had 158 yards rushing. I hate to break it to you, but that's not true. We had a 4.3 yard average and 137 yards rushing. Also, half of our running plays went for three yards or less. Only ONE of our running plays by a running back went for over 10 yards. We had a nice running game. But it wasn't a dominating one that you are portraying. But, we ran very well against the Cowboys too. The difference was we weren't sustaining drives with the pass, as we were against the Seahawks, so our opportunities to run were diminished somewhat. As for Friedman, I think he played well. But, a great deal of the better pass blocking performance was due to the Seahawks NOT bringing pressure as much as we had planned for and expected and even HOPED for. Even Jackson spoke of the fact that he kind of wished they had done more with pressure because we need to beat that pressure to really stop it and see where we are. Essentially Friedman had an easy game to call. There was nothing exotic from the Seahawks. Only ONCE in third quarter did they even stack the line with eight guys. It was the play that Johnston commented was the most exotic look the Seahawks had given us all game. They were not in different positions. Rhodes lines up and plays very base defense and it's pretty easy to make line calls in such a circumstance. I hope Friedman is as good against a better pressure team. I hope he's as good against top interior players like he'll see this week if he's still in the starting lineup. But, there is a reason he's not been our starter to this point guys. While we all should have great hope that he is a diamond who just needed an opportunity to get out of the rough, he's been on the bench for a reason. That reason is because he's not deemed as good a player as Moore or Dockery or Thomas since he can play all those spots. If he sustains that job it'll be great and it'll be a good story of a player who made the most of his opportunity. But, the line blocked very well against Dallas as well last week. All pressure and hits came from blitzes and missed blocks by our backs. The line has blocked well actually more often than it's blocked poorly this year. Until we see the pass blocking group as a whole handle varied looks and heavy pressure we've accomplished nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by Skeletor The Invincible The run won't necessarily stop the blitz, they can blitz and stop the run at the same time, ie, run blitzing. They could hit the RB in the backfield. What WILL stop the blitz, though, is quick passes:Screens, Slants, and Outs,in the direction of the blitz, which could go for big gains. Good point. Here's the problem w/ the short pass...or, the best defense against the west coast- a defense can simply key-in and blitz w/ press coverage. Nothing can develop this way...so it's almost like a trap. Occassionally, these types of plays can be effective. But it cannot solely counter the 6-8 man rush. But, w/ the run- sweeps, counters, reverses, etc., you can throw off a pass rush. Sure, you may run into the blitz, and they might get lucky, but that will really only happen maybe 1 of 3 tries. I think blitzing goes after a single point in the backfield...where the QB is. If the ball is already in play (running back), and can manuever around players that are trying to hit a spot where the QB is, more often that not it will be a productive run. I think when the run is effective, you force the defense to stay in their positions, and contain the runner. If you do this w/ consistency, you ultimately slow the blitz. If the defense doesn't react in this way, then they will inevitably give up the big play. And...when they do slow the pass rush, the field is wide open for Coles and Gardner. And that's what happened last Sunday. Ol' Huey Jackson knows what's up. Spurrier can learn a lot from him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by Art Couple of things. First, Freak, you keep writing that we had a 5.8 yard average and we had 158 yards rushing. I hate to break it to you, but that's not true. We had a 4.3 yard average and 137 yards rushing. Also, half of our running plays went for three yards or less. Only ONE of our running plays by a running back went for over 10 yards. We had a nice running game. But it wasn't a dominating one that you are portraying. But, we ran very well against the Cowboys too. The difference was we weren't sustaining drives with the pass, as we were against the Seahawks, so our opportunities to run were diminished somewhat. OK, so I might be wrong about the stats. I have no problem admitting that! Still, I think 137 yards on the ground is productive. Like I had mentioned before, I don't think it needs to be dominating. Just effective in a sense that it forces the defense to balance out a little. But, you make good points Art, and only this weekend will show how our gameplan has evolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskin56 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 This week is going to be very difficult for the offense. Carolina has one of the best defensive fronts in the game today. If they play like they did against Dallass, its going to be a long day for all of us. I still think that our best runs come from between the tackles, so, if were going to try and establish the run, let our interior of the line bulldoze away and Rock run the rock (sorry had to do it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfanjoe Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by redskin56 I still think that our best runs come from between the tackles, so, if were going to try and establish the run, let our interior of the line bulldoze away and Rock run the rock (sorry had to do it). Agreed, I can't tell you how sick I am of seeing that toss play. Trung never waits for his blockers or the Fullback completely misses his block. It just never seems to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I did wish that we drafed a certain center out of Notre Dame this year but oh well there is always the 3rd round of this year after we draft two d linemen in the first two rounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I wouldn't really worry about Friedman being undersized for the Center position. If he's flanked by Moore and Thomas with Samuels and Jansen at the tackles, we have the talent to cover for his lack of size. What we need from him to call good games and bring some consistency to the position that he seems to bring. The two games he's played have been our smoothest...there may be some extenuating circumstances for that, but the two Ws don't lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefhogskin48 Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by bulldog It all comes down to personnel. And we are critically short at some spots. Sorry Bulldog, but I don't agree that it all comes down to personnel. Go down to Carolina and you won't see many all-world players. Just role players doing their jobs, along with a few elite differencemakers. There are teams with worse personnel than us that are better TEAMS. Why is that? Coaching, probably. Or perhaps the pieces fit better. I'll never buy into the idea that you can't have any holes to be a good team. Zeron Flemister and Larry Moore aren't the problem. Our problem, I'm afraid, goes beyond personnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 chiefhogskin, i think carolina has some good talent on their team. the thing is, they are young players that we don't know by name yet because carolina does a good job of scouting and not just looking for names that jump off the page at them... having said that, i agree that talent isn't our only problem...you won't have great players in every slot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted November 11, 2003 Author Share Posted November 11, 2003 Art, you're right, Friedman didn't exactly see a complex look from Seattle on Sunday. Let's see how he does against Carolina. BUT, even against the more vanilla fronts we've seen this season, Giants, Jets, Moore struggled and seemed to be the weak link. Also, Moore has proved to be downright BAD at assigning blitz pick ups and coordinating the o-line in their pre-snap reads. Friedman might not be much better, but he can't be any worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freakofthesouth Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 I had always heard that the center 'leads' the line. Maybe Friedman is just a better leader (like MAP said, at blitz pickup) and can bring the line together a bit 'moore.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Originally posted by chiefhogskin48 Sorry Bulldog, but I don't agree that it all comes down to personnel. Go down to Carolina and you won't see many all-world players. Just role players doing their jobs, along with a few elite differencemakers. There are teams with worse personnel than us that are better TEAMS. Why is that? Coaching, probably. Or perhaps the pieces fit better. I'll never buy into the idea that you can't have any holes to be a good team. Zeron Flemister and Larry Moore aren't the problem. Our problem, I'm afraid, goes beyond personnel. Their entire defensive line is "all-world". Julius Peppers? Top 3 pick. Mike Rucker? Kerry Jenkins? Beasts. Dan Morgan, their MLB, was a pretty high first rounder. The difference is.... they are in Carolina..... so they don't get much press... here in Washington, we like to constantly hype our overrated players, which leads to higher contract demands, and constant disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonard Washington Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 i always hear the moore usually gets the best grade of the line. maybe he's just making calls that will make him look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulldog Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 of course the PERFORMING players in Carolina don't get much credit for their talent among some here while our own Samuels, Arrington, Bailey and others who are not consistently performing are given credit for being among the best at their positions? :laugh: I don't give a rat's a$$ about pro bowl berths, I want to see consistent play not just the highlight reel hit or two per week that keeps a guys name in the papers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Friedman may not be the biggest guy but as long as he can read the defense and make the proper line calls, pick up middle blitzes and help turn the D-Line where you want them, I say give him a shot. He certainly helped show Denver's backfield the way into the secondary and can't be any worse than Moore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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