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CNN.com: Russian warplane downed; Turkey says aircraft violated airspace near border


PeterMP

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People keep saying that everything will be fine but this is one hell of a tricky situation. 

 

Russia is enraged with Turkey, who is a member of NATO and has already shot down a Russian war plane. 

Russia is operating on Turkey's border against Turkey's interests in Syria. 

Turkey is increasing their military presence along that border.

Other NATO states are also operating in that same war zone but they do not share the same objective as Russia.

 

There is a lot of potential for something to go wrong here.  If people aren't careful ISIS is going to claim credit for turning its enemies against each other simply by virtue of setting the stage and waiting for the giants to jostle each other into a rage. 

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Oh no, a couple of people in Turkey put bags over some US saliors heads.  That's unforgivable.

 

Wait.  At least they didn't attack an embassy.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/12/world/europe/12cnd-greece.html?_r=0

 

(Every country in the world has bad people in it, and in a lot of countries, there is anti-American resentment, including Greece and Turkey.)

 

Did you read the thread (or just allow an incorrect post to show your extreme anti-Turkey bias)  Turkey didn't kill them.

 

We have issues with Turkey, but we have issues with all of our allies in the Middle East and realistically we have the fewest issues with Turkey.

 

Of all of our allies in the Middle East, the one that needs to be railed 

 

But the fact of the matter is Russia is a problem too, and as has been documented by multiple people Russia isn't really fighting ISIS.  They are supporting Assad and if that means attacking moderate groups that we support, they are doing it.

 

And that's ignoring what they are doing in the Ukraine and have done in Georgia.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-30/are-these-tankers-bilal-erdogan-uses-transport-isis-oil

 

o r maybe this article.

 

 we all have issues with turkey? no one can make that statement unless they are of Kurdish, Armenian, assryian, Cypriot and of Hellenic blood. everyone else, they don't even come close. So once again turkey did shot the pilots parachuting. get your info correct.

 

and actually its a mob and not bags they were beaten. do some research that does not involve usa media. unless your biased and a pro turk supporter.

 

 

Additionally, are you justifying turkey to violate Hellenic airspace on a constant basis? They should know better since they are so called a nato member.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/greek-pm-hits-turkey-air-space-violations-151129205752698.html

 

 

https://www.rt.com/news/323861-turkey-greek-airspace-violations/

 

you cannot violate one countries airspace that many times and then when another country does that to you shot a plane down.  Does the word hypocrite come to mind???

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http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-30/are-these-tankers-bilal-erdogan-uses-transport-isis-oil

 

o r maybe this article.

 

 we all have issues with turkey? no one can make that statement unless they are of Kurdish, Armenian, assryian, Cypriot and of Hellenic blood. everyone else, they don't even come close. So once again turkey did shot the pilots parachuting. get your info correct.

 

and actually its a mob and not bags they were beaten. do some research that does not involve usa media. unless your biased and a pro turk supporter.

 

 

Additionally, are you justifying turkey to violate Hellenic airspace on a constant basis? They should know better since they are so called a nato member.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/greek-pm-hits-turkey-air-space-violations-151129205752698.html

 

 

https://www.rt.com/news/323861-turkey-greek-airspace-violations/

 

you cannot violate one countries airspace that many times and then when another country does that to you shot a plane down.  Does the word hypocrite come to mind???

 

Do you have a link stating that Turkey shot the pilot?

 

(The report in this thread was that Syrian Turkmans shot both pilots and had the bodies, which clearly isn't correct because one lived and is in Russia.  Your view appears to be based on a misinterpretation (i.e. that Syrian Turkman rebels = Turkey)  of a clearly false report.)

 

The argument (as in many cases) between Turkey and Greece over air space is complex and based on different international conventions and what area can you claim as your air space.

 

Turkey also claims that Greece violates their airspace.  Just because they are NATO allies doesn't mean that there aren't disputes at this level.

 

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/01/turkey-greece-cyprus-aegean-air-space-nato.html#

 

Spain and Portugal and the UK and Spain have been going back and forth over different pieces of lands for centuries now.

 

http://one-europe.info/portugal-spain-the-territorial-disputes-of-olivenza-and-the-savage-islands

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33842868

 

"Islands" are especially important and whether they represent "land" or "rocks" and what that means in terms of territorial waters and zones of economic control because of the relationship between that and things like fishing industries.

 

Realistically, US and China are going through a similar thing:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/09/us-china-usa-southchinasea-idUSKCN0S30ND20151009#Kar2rXgWT15UhOY2.97

 

There's a difference between flying over some area of the Agean sea that Greece claims as their "territory" and flying over Greece  and that sort of thing is generally recognized as being different.  Flying over an area of South China Sea that China claims as their territory does not invoke the same response as if a US plain flew of main land China.

 

Flying over or sailing through disputed waters and even small land masses is generally accepted.  Flying over a nations main land mass is different.  Even Russia previously admitted to flying over Turkey.

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http://news.yahoo.com/obama-calls-turkey-russia-focus-common-enemy-101821118.html;_ylt=AwrC0CMJ8V1WpW4AxCLQtDMD;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

Obama tells Russia, Turkey to focus on IS

 

US President Barack Obama led calls Tuesday for Turkey and Russia to end their dispute over the downing of a Russian fighter jet and focus instead on Islamic State, the real enemy.

 

Obama said he was sure too that Russia would soon change tack in Syria, backing a political solution to the bloody conflict after years supporting long time ally, President Bashar al-Assad who Washington insists must step down.

 

Separately, US Defense Secretary Ashton Carter said he was "prepared to expand" the role of special operations troops fighting IS in Syria and Iraq where the jihadist group has seized huge swathes of territory and lucrative oil fields it uses to fund its deadly activities.

 

NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg meanwhile urged key ally Turkey and Russia to find a way to avoid a repeat of an incident which threatens to scupper efforts to forge a common front against IS after the group's attacks in Paris left 130 dead.

 

Obama was frank about what both sides should do.

 

"I want to be very clear: Turkey is a NATO ally. The US supports Turkish rights to defend itself and its airspace and its territory," Obama said after meeting his Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Paris.

 

"We all have a common enemy and that is ISIL and I want to make sure we focus on that threat," Obama said, using an alternative name for IS.

 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/nato-ministers-discuss-measures-to-defend-turkish-airspace-1448973957

NATO Ministers Discuss Ways to Defend Turkish Airspace

 

Western allies are debating stepped-up measures to help defend the Turkish border after that nation’s armed forces shot down a Russian jet fighter last week.

 

http://mashable.com/2015/12/01/putin-russia-turkey-sanctions/?utm_cid=mash-com-Tw-main-link#u.HPLbz3NsqE

Putin bans Turkish turkeys, fruit and athletes

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/01/us-mideast-crisis-russia-turkey-gas-idUSKBN0TK4WY20151201

Exclusive: Russia may freeze Turkish Stream gas project - Gazprom sources

 

Russia may freeze work on the Turkish Stream gas pipeline project for several years in retaliation against Ankara for the shooting down of a Russian air force jet, two sources at Russian gas giant Gazprom told Reuters.

 

The Kremlin has imposed trade sanctions on Turkey over last week's jet incident although so far the measures have not affected the Russian energy exports to Turkey that are the core of their economic relationship.

 

Russian Economy Minister Alexei Ulyukayev said on Tuesday that no decisions had been made on the project and on a nuclear power station that Russia is building in Turkey.

 

Freezing work on the pipeline - intended to pump Russian gas, via Turkey, into southeastern Europe while bypassing Ukraine - would have a more symbolic than practical effect because the project is already beset by delays and doubts over its viability.

 

Any freeze would also not affect another Russian project to boost gas exports to the north of Europe. Gazprom is going ahead with plans to expand the Nord Stream pipeline to Germany despite resistance from several ex-communist states in eastern Europe.

 

Gazprom sources said no decision had been taken inside the company about changes to the Turkish Stream schedule in response to the row with Ankara, but added that they were awaiting instructions from President Vladimir Putin.

 

"We're expecting that the head of state, in all likelihood, could declare a freezing of Turkish Stream, or at least some kind of timeout should be announced," said one Gazprom source, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

 

A second source in Gazprom, who also did not want to be identified, said: "We are still hoping that Turkish Stream will be pushed back by a few years, rather than completely canceled."

 

Ulyukayev said last month that Turkish Stream could be among the projects affected by sanctions against Turkey, but he did not specify how. On Tuesday he left open the future of the pipeline and nuclear power station.

 

"There have been no decisions at this stage on suspending, freezing or ending financing for these projects," he told reporters in Brussels. "We are working on the assumptions that they will be carried out as they were agreed."

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Putin is such an ass. Obama should invite Vyacheslav Bykov to the White House, ask to see his Gagarin Cup and then never give it back.

I still find it fascinating that Putin took a billionaires ring from him just by asking for it and pocketing it. No threats of violence, just took it and counted on Kraft to just grin and accept it. There might not be another 2 people in the world that can do that.

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People keep saying that everything will be fine but this is one hell of a tricky situation. 

 

Russia is enraged with Turkey, who is a member of NATO and has already shot down a Russian war plane. 

Russia is operating on Turkey's border against Turkey's interests in Syria. 

Turkey is increasing their military presence along that border.

Other NATO states are also operating in that same war zone but they do not share the same objective as Russia.

 

There is a lot of potential for something to go wrong here.  If people aren't careful ISIS is going to claim credit for turning its enemies against each other simply by virtue of setting the stage and waiting for the giants to jostle each other into a rage. 

 

I was one of those people. Certainly things are dicey right now in Syria and elsewhere, that hasn't changed. And this incident may add another piece of bad blood to the mix. But it's over as a stand alone issue that might trigger something bigger. 

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Do you have a link stating that Turkey shot the pilot?

 

(The report in this thread was that Syrian Turkmans shot both pilots and had the bodies, which clearly isn't correct because one lived and is in Russia.  Your view appears to be based on a misinterpretation (i.e. that Syrian Turkman rebels = Turkey)  of a clearly false report.)

 

The argument (as in many cases) between Turkey and Greece over air space is complex and based on different international conventions and what area can you claim as your air space.

 

Turkey also claims that Greece violates their airspace.  Just because they are NATO allies doesn't mean that there aren't disputes at this level.

 

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2015/01/turkey-greece-cyprus-aegean-air-space-nato.html#

 

Spain and Portugal and the UK and Spain have been going back and forth over different pieces of lands for centuries now.

 

http://one-europe.info/portugal-spain-the-territorial-disputes-of-olivenza-and-the-savage-islands

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33842868

 

"Islands" are especially important and whether they represent "land" or "rocks" and what that means in terms of territorial waters and zones of economic control because of the relationship between that and things like fishing industries.

 

Realistically, US and China are going through a similar thing:

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/09/us-china-usa-southchinasea-idUSKCN0S30ND20151009#Kar2rXgWT15UhOY2.97

 

There's a difference between flying over some area of the Agean sea that Greece claims as their "territory" and flying over Greece  and that sort of thing is generally recognized as being different.  Flying over an area of South China Sea that China claims as their territory does not invoke the same response as if a US plain flew of main land China.

 

Flying over or sailing through disputed waters and even small land masses is generally accepted.  Flying over a nations main land mass is different.  Even Russia previously admitted to flying over Turkey.

so your referring to Greece defending its self as a violation for turkey violating airspace??

 

http://www.ekathimerini.com/203964/article/ekathimerini/news/turkish-jets-violate-greek-air-space

 

well what do you know should have blown them up. that was much longer than so called Russia and 4 seconds. and what about ertogons son doing business with Russia? no comment to that???

 

why isn't the usa media reporting this? its simple. someone is buying isis dirty oil. you follow the trucks which Russia has and you see where it goes. there is no paper trail news flash that stuff is done with a handshake and a wink. example crude would be in the movie the A-team when it was a covert op.

 

lol you are deffinitly a turk supporter. because you still haven't given me a response on why Greek and any other chrisitan miniorty in the region should not offended by there aggressions especially with there history of mass genocide!

 

and to compare the usa to chinas island is totally insane. Greece has laid claim to those islands for centuries, where in china those are man made and are in international waters. hence its no ones land. lol.. wow. your compare and contrast is comical with no merit or reinforcement

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http://bigstory.ap.org/urn:publicid:ap.org:fbe4f97a7f954b9ea7baf086b42c436a

Russia's top diplomat agrees to meet with Turk counterpart

 

Russia's foreign minister says he won't refuse a meeting with his Turkish counterpart in Serbia's capital this week to hear what Turkey's explanations on the downing of a Russian air force jet.

 

Sergey Lavrov says he will meet with Mevlut Cavusoglu in Belgrade on the sidelines of an Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe meeting "to hear what he has to say."

 

Lavrov says he spoke to Cavusoglu by telephone the day after the Russian aircraft was shot down, but heard only "just some excuses."

 

Speaking after talks with his Cypriot counterpart on Wednesday, Lavrov said his country's aim is to ensure that it doesn't allow the "overflow" of terrorist threats in Turkey from making their way into Russia.

Oh, good.  Now maybe they'll tone down the rhetoric and....

 

 

https://twitter.com/AFP

BREAKING 'Erdogan and his family' involved in oil trade with IS: Russian defence ministry
7:26 AM
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so your referring to Greece defending its self as a violation for turkey violating airspace??

 

http://www.ekathimerini.com/203964/article/ekathimerini/news/turkish-jets-violate-greek-air-space

 

well what do you know should have blown them up. that was much longer than so called Russia and 4 seconds. and what about ertogons son doing business with Russia? no comment to that???

 

why isn't the usa media reporting this? its simple. someone is buying isis dirty oil. you follow the trucks which Russia has and you see where it goes. there is no paper trail news flash that stuff is done with a handshake and a wink. example crude would be in the movie the A-team when it was a covert op.

 

lol you are deffinitly a turk supporter. because you still haven't given me a response on why Greek and any other chrisitan miniorty in the region should not offended by there aggressions especially with there history of mass genocide!

 

and to compare the usa to chinas island is totally insane. Greece has laid claim to those islands for centuries, where in china those are man made and are in international waters. hence its no ones land. lol.. wow. your compare and contrast is comical with no merit or reinforcement

 

Your posts are making less and less sense.

 

Whose son is working with Russia and why does that matter?

 

Whose aggression?  Turkey's or Russia's?

 

It was Russia that was dropping bombs on people.

 

Why does it matter if they are Christian minorities?

 

Do Georgian minorities not matter?  Turk minorities (in Syria)?

 

But just so you know the US-China issue with respect to air/water space and claims of violation easily pre-date the current issue related to the Chinese made islands.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/03/10/us.navy.china/

 

http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/zt/zjsj/t36383.htm

 

Almost certainly, there are people in Turkey that support ISIS.  Those people have likely been buying oil from ISIS.  Some of them might even be important people in Turkey.

 

I'm not sure that ISIS is Turkey's #1 issue in the region as compared to limiting the influence of the Kurds, protecting ethnic Turks in Syria, and seeing the fall of Assad.

 

But there is also plenty of evidence that Russia isn't all that worried about ISIS (at least currently) with respect to achieving other goals too, which includes protecting Assad and minimizing the influence that Turkey has on the situation.

 

And that includes Russia dropping bombs on "moderates" in the region that we have been trying to work with and ethnic Turks that Turkey has been trying to protect.

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http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/03/us-russia-putin-idUSKBN0TM0YF20151203?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter

Putin to Turkey: Expect more sanctions for jet shoot-down
 

President Vladimir Putin used his annual state of the nation speech on Thursday to warn Turkey the Kremlin planned to adopt further sanctions against it to punish Ankara for shooting down a Russian warplane near the Syrian-Turkish border last week.

 

Russia has already banned some Turkish food imports in retaliation as part of a sanctions package, and has accused Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan and his family of benefiting from the smuggling of oil from Islamic State controlled territory in Syria and Iraq, allegations Turkey denies.

 

But on Thursday, without specifying how, Putin made clear Moscow planned to go much further, using strong rhetoric which underscored the continued depth of his anger towards Ankara over the Nov.24 incident.

 

"We are not planning to engage in military sabre-rattling," Putin told an audience in the Kremlin.

 

"But if anyone thinks that having committed this awful war crime, the murder of our people, that they are going to get away with some measures concerning their tomatoes or some limits on construction and other sectors, they are sorely mistaken."

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/12/03/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUSKBN0TM0U320151203?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&utm_source=twitter

Turkey dismisses 'Soviet propaganda', says trying to secure Syria border
 

Turkish Prime Minister Ahmet Davutoglu dismissed Russian allegations that Turkey was buying oil from Islamic State as "Soviet-style propaganda" on Thursday and said the NATO member was doing all it could to secure its border with Syria.

 

Russia's defense ministry said on Wednesday it had proof that Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan and his family were benefiting from the illegal smuggling of oil from Islamic State-held territory in Syria and Iraq.

 

"In the Cold War period there was a Soviet propaganda machine. Every day it created different lies. Firstly they would believe them and then expect the world to believe them. These were remembered as Pravda lies and nonsense," Davutoglu said.

 

"This was an old tradition but it has suddenly reared its head again. Nobody attaches any value to the lies of this Soviet-style propaganda machine," he told a news conference before leaving on an official visit to Azerbaijan.

 

Davutoglu said a rejection of Russia's claims by the United States was further evidence that Moscow was peddling a fabricated narrative.

 

U.S. State Department spokesman Mark Toner said on Wednesday that Washington rejected the premise that the Turkish government was in league with the militants to smuggle oil, saying it saw no evidence to support such an accusation.

 

But President Barack Obama and other senior U.S. officials have also voiced frustration in recent days at lingering gaps in security along a roughly 100 km (62-mile) stretch of Turkey's border with Syrian territory controlled by Islamic State.

 

White House spokesman Josh Earnest said on Wednesday that some areas were still not properly secured.

 

Davutoglu said Turkey was doing all it can and is setting up "physical barriers" on that stretch of border. He said Turkey was working with coalition partners to try to remove Islamic State fighters from the Syrian side.

 

"98 km of the border is under Deash control, physical barriers are being setting up here," he said, using an Arabic acronym for Islamic State.

 

https://twitter.com/shaunwalker7

Putin: "Allah decided to punish the Turkish elite by relieving them of their sense and judgement... They will regret they ever did this".
4:13 AM

 

https://twitter.com/NeilMacFarquhar

Putin annual address: Russia cannot ignore Turkey downing of plane and response will not be limited to trade sanctions.

4:25 AM

 

https://twitter.com/AFP

BREAKING Russia says talks suspended with Turkey on TurkStream pipeline: minister
5:21 AM

 

     

 

 

I had a feeling this was coming, lol 

 

https://twitter.com/AFP

BREAKING Erdogan says Turkey has proof of Russian involvement in IS oil trade

6:18 AM

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  • 6 months later...

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-turkey-kremlin-idUSKCN0ZE0XS

Kremlin dents Turkish hopes for quick restoration of ties

 

The Kremlin sought to dampen Turkey's hopes for a swift restoration of normal relations on Tuesday, a day after Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan expressed regret over the downing of a Russian warplane last year.

 

The Russian jet was shot down, with the loss of the pilot, in November while taking part in the Kremlin's military campaign in Syria. Ankara said it acted lawfully because the plane had crossed into Turkish air space; Moscow denied that happened.

 

The incident triggered Russian sanctions against Turkey that have damaged trade and tourism.

 

After writing to Russian President Vladimir Putin to voice his regret on Monday, Erdogan said he believed Ankara would normalize relations with Moscow "rapidly". But the Kremlin struck a more cautious tone on Tuesday.

 

"One should not think it possible to normalize everything within a few days, but work in this direction will continue," spokesman Dmitry Peskov told reporters on a conference call.

 

"President Putin has expressed more than once his willingness to maintain good relations with Turkey and the Turkish people," Peskov said. "Now a very important step has been made."

 

Putin and Erdogan will hold a telephone conversation at Moscow's initiative on Wednesday, Peskov said.

 

Putin has said an apology from Erdogan was necessary to repair relations. Erdogan spokesman Ibrahim Kalin said the Turkish president had expressed regret over the shooting in a letter to Putin, but added that this was not an apology.

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http://www.timesofisrael.com/putin-orders-government-to-start-normalizing-trade-with-turkey/

Putin orders government to start ‘normalizing’ trade with Turkey

 

Russian President Vladimir Putin on Wednesday ordered his government to begin the process of lifting sanctions imposed against Turkey after Ankara shot down a Russian warplane last year.

 

“I ask that the Russian government begins the process of normalizing general trade and economic ties with Turkey,” Putin said at a cabinet meeting following a telephone conversation with Turkish counterpart Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

 

First on his list were travel restrictions between the countries.

 

“I want to start with the question of tourism … we are lifting the administrative restrictions in this area,” Putin told government ministers in televised comments.

 

The move came after earlier in the day Putin and Erdogan held their first phone call since Ankara downed one of Moscow’s jets in Syria last year.

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