The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[twa]

Suing the govt is cool again.....bet Pruitt will be happy. 

[Dan T.]

9 minutes ago, tshile said:

58 minutes ago, Dan T. said:

Has anybody used Google yet today?  I didn't recognize the person depicted in Google Doodle:

 

 

It is Fred Korematsu, who fought Franklin Delano Roosevelt's Executive Order on the internment of Japanese Americans at the outset of World War II.

 

I don't think it's coincidence they chose to recognize him today.

Well, it is his birthday

 

 

Guess what? Today is also the birthday of Franklin Delano Roosevelt. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

[DogofWar1]

House won't move until costs of defying Trump's voter block are less than benefits.  They won't pass anything blocking it, yet.

 

Senate might.  Senators up for re-election in '18 on the right probably stay silent, but most GOP senators have until 2020 and can afford to be a little louder.

 

I still don't expect more than a handful to break, but I could see it passing the Senate (or at least getting filibustered).

 

Now that would be a sight.  The GOP filibustering a bill to end Trump's actions.  Would politically hurt them if Trump's supporters dissipate.

[visionary]

 

 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Watching Sean Spicer presser now.  Wish I hadn't just eaten lunch.  

[tshile]

I'm splicing these two articles together because the man wrote one article, then a blog post about his article that contained more information. I'm posting it because it's a view from the right (which we haven't seen much of) and I think it's at least thoughtful and attempts to speak on the issue without ratcheting up the usual political-****-fight we see most of the time. It includes a ton of links to other reports/articles/etc to support the claims. I'm not posting it because I wholly agree with the author, i just think it's worth reading.

 

I'm trying to include the most interesting parts, but the whole thing is interesting to me, so it's hard to pick and choose. There are a ton of links in there, i'm not sure if they'll work in the quote box or if you'll have to go to the article... it's a lot to read through..

 

The original article:

TAC - Verbruggen - Action on Immigration

 

Quote

For decades, the American people have been at odds with their elected lawmakers over immigration. Only a small minority of Americans—about one-fifth to one-fourth—want to see immigration levels increased. And yet, until now, the immigrant share of the population kept trending upward as Congress, including many of the Republicans in it, considered bills that would dramatically increase legal immigration and grant amnesty to those who came here illegally. More than once, an intense public outcry was needed to keep these bills from becoming law.

...

As the chaos this weekend demonstrated, this will be a very long road. Almost by definition, executive actions raise serious concerns about the proper limits of the president’s power, and conservatives should join liberals in keeping an eye on Trump as he implements them. In general, these measures fall within the president’s traditional authority and are defensible on the merits, but there are genuine problems with some provisions.

 

Let’s start with the order announced Friday that resulted in mass confusion and outrage. This measure pauses the inflow of all refugees, and of travelers from seven countries that were already considered high-risk, for several months while a system for “extreme vetting” is worked out. It also bans Syrian refugees indefinitely. Exceptions will be made to honor preexisting international agreements, to admit persecuted religious minorities, and otherwise on a case-by-case basis. Once refugee admissions resume, they will be capped at 50,000 this year, which is less than half what Obama chose before leaving office but not so far below the norm for the past 15 years.

 

A debate rages over various arguments that the order is illegal, but limiting immigration for national-security reasons is an area where the president has a lot of discretion.

...

Philip Giraldi, a former CIA officer who has worked in visa lines, laid out the case for this sort of temporary measure in TAC last year. He emphasized the difficulty of vetting immigrants in countries where documents cannot be verified and many show up with no documents at all.

 

Today, though, Giraldi raises good questions about the specifics of the rule, including the collection of countries Trump chose to restrict. Further, the administration waffled on whether the ban applied to lawful permanent residents—at this writing, the final word seems to be that it does not—and the immigration system struggled to deal with people who were traveling when the rule was signed.

...

Another of Trump’s measures instructs the Department of Homeland Security, “to the extent permitted by law,” to begin the process of funding, studying, and building a border wall. The executive branch can rearrange funding streams to some extent, though Congress will have to approve substantial changes. Trump won’t be able to fund the entire project this way—there isn’t anywhere near enough money available without congressional appropriations (which Republican lawmakers favor)—but the action gets the ball rolling and sends a strong signal to Congress that Trump really plans to secure the border.

 

Congress needs a strong signal. A little-known fact is that there already is supposed to be fencing along 700 miles of the 2,000-mile Mexican border, as ordered by Congress in 2006. However, Congress promptly gutted that law, allowing the executive branch to use easily breached barriers—sometimes just a vehicle barrier, sometimes a weak pedestrian fence that smugglers could simply cut holes into—instead of the security fencing that has proven effective near San Diego and in Israel, where a fence reduced suicide terrorism. (See Daniel Horowitz at Conservative Review for a thorough account of the saga.)

 

Yet another measure lays out Trump’s plan to take federal funding away from “sanctuary cities.” These are casually defined as cities that refuse to help the federal government enforce immigration law. In the order, however, they are defined as cities in violation of a specific federal law, which holds that state and local governments can’t stop their employees from sharing “information regarding the citizenship or immigration status, lawful or unlawful, of any individual” with the federal government.

...

 

he then goes on about Trump wiping away some things Obama did re: immigration

 

His blog post follow-up:

TAC - Verbruggen - 'Muslim Ban' Notes

 

Quote

...

Here I just wanted to make a few extra points.

 

First, a lot of people seem to think the measure blatantly discriminates against Muslims. It bars admissions from seven majority-Muslim countries but allows exceptions for religious minorities. Not exactly subtle!

 

But this conflates two different parts of the order. Section 5 pauses the entire refugee program, not just for seven countries. This is the part that encourages exceptions for persecuted religious minorities and says such minorities should be privileged once normal admissions resume. Section 3 pauses all entry from seven countries, not just refugees, and contains no such language.

 

You can argue that the order shouldn’t distinguish between minority and majority religions—persecuted is persecuted—or that Trump’s history of idiotic comments sends a signal to executive agencies to interpret the order in a biased fashion, or that the order shouldn’t single out “radical Islamic terrorism.” Etc. But this seemingly knock-down argument against the core provisions of the measure doesn’t hold water.

...

Finally, an update on green-card holders. The final determination seems to be that the ban applies to them, but only in a very nominal sense. They have to be handled on a “case-by-case” basis, but the simple fact that they have a green card will generally be treated as “dispositive.”

 

Apparently the White House is trying to pass this off as “nothing has changed.” In a weird way, I guess they have a point: official statements that the ban applies to green-card holders were true, as were statements that it doesn’t. It applies to them but then they are almost categorically exempted.

 

I guess one thing I'd point out to him, if we were discussing this, is that his argument about how it isn't actually a Muslim ban would work, if Guiliani didn't go on Fox News this weekend and say (paraphrasing)... they asked me to write something that would ban muslims, but not say it's banning muslims, and this is what i came up with.

 

Kind of a wrinkle in that argument...

 

 

[visionary]

 

 

Definitely not true.  

 

 

 

Probably not true.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by visionary

[Llevron]

26 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

Watching Sean Spicer presser now.  Wish I hadn't just eaten lunch.  

 

Dude is a clown and is so mad at the press for asking him questions. 

[Jumbo]

9 minutes ago, Llevron said:

 

Dude is a clown and is so mad at the press for asking him questions. 

 

I'm watching it too, while multi-fail-tasking (it's how i roll)...at first i thot at least he's in better humor...but soon enough, alt-reality steps up: "there is no problem with the ban, there were no real problems given the scope,  all the people going crazy are just like that and need to stop" and he's yelling again lol...Josh Earnest was like George Washington in the truth dep't compared to the Baghdad Bob formula we have now..,that said, I encourage everyone who's hyper-anti-trump (i guess that's all decent smart people at this point? no? <kidding>) to keep looking for holes in their anti stances...cuz sean made a couple valid points if you can get out of that bubble (so many bubbles)...where's Don Ho?

[Llevron]

3 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

I'm watching it too, while multi-fail-tasking (it's how i roll)...at first i thot at least he's in better humor...but soon enough, alt-reality (there is no problem with the ban, there were no real problems given the scope,  all the people going crazy oare just like that and need to stop and he's yelling again lol)...Josh Earnest was like George Washington in the truth dep't compared to the Baghdad Bob formula we have now..,that said, I encourage everyone who's hyper-anti-trump (i guess that's all decent smart people at this point? no? <kidding>) to keep looking for holes in their anti stances...cuz sean made a couple valid points if you can get out of that bubble (so many bubbles)...where's Don Ho?

 

I really want to give him credit for a few points of his, but honestly I come away so amazed at the way he addresses concerns -- If you dont like it, get out -- that its hard to focus on any of the good that comes out of his mouth. I can understand that their goal was to keep it all a secret so that no bad guys could get by in the last minutes, and that, technically, it worked. But they dont see any error in their ways and to them the people who do dont get the big picture at all. 

 

Its hard for me to give credit to a group of men who I know have no idea what the hell they are doing. Even when they do mistakenly make a point. 

 

I am definitely in a bubble right now. Struggling to find a way out of it. And worried that when I do, Ill think like them and I would rather be in my bubble. 

[visionary]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by visionary

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

I realize that Spicer makes a good point every now and then.  However, his insistence to continue to double down/triple down on things that are completely false disturbs me.  His downplaying of Bannon, that Jews weren't mentioned in the Holocaust statement, etc.  His attitude could use some tweaks as well.  

 

I do agree that Dems need to get out of Washington and see more of America.  They will not like, or probably believe what they see.  This is coming from someone who was raised in a conservative home, in a conservative small town in NC.  Dems truly do not understand what they are dealing with.

[brandymac27]

 

 

 

 

[Llevron]

6 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I do agree that Dems need to get out of Washington and see more of America.  They will not like, or probably believe what they see.  This is coming from someone who was raised in a conservative home, in a conservative small town in NC.  Dems truly do not understand what they are dealing with.

 

This is not a lie. Im born raised and grown Washington DC. Furthest south I had ever lived was Norfolk. 

 

Then my niece started going to BAMA and I went to visit for a week. Lasted 3 days. Its not the same place outside of our little circle, honestly. Since then I have been telling all my buddies (who want so badly to get out of MD) that the world really isnt what they think it is. 

[Destino]

27 minutes ago, Jumbo said:

 

I'm watching it too, while multi-fail-tasking (it's how i roll)...at first i thot at least he's in better humor...but soon enough, alt-reality steps up: "there is no problem with the ban, there were no real problems given the scope,  all the people going crazy are just like that and need to stop" and he's yelling again lol...Josh Earnest was like George Washington in the truth dep't compared to the Baghdad Bob formula we have now..,that said, I encourage everyone who's hyper-anti-trump (i guess that's all decent smart people at this point? no? <kidding>) to keep looking for holes in their anti stances...cuz sean made a couple valid points if you can get out of that bubble (so many bubbles)...where's Don Ho?

 

I'm failing at multitasking too.  Related/unrelated being Trump's press secretary seems like some form of karmic punishment.  Can you imagine getting up every morning knowing that today, like all days, you will once against face a press eager to rake you over the coals while trying to defend the indefensible? 

 

I'd rather work at a daycare, where the shouting mob is more easily won over and my torment isn't broadcast live for all to see.

[visionary]

Period.

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2017 by visionary

[TheGoodBits]

"Period" is Spicer's version of "believe me."

[TheGreatBuzz]

@Jumbo or anyone else who saw it.  I didn't see the press conference because I'm working.  Can you give me a brief overview of his good points?

[Elessar78]

25 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I realize that Spicer makes a good point every now and then.  However, his insistence to continue to double down/triple down on things that are completely false disturbs me.  His downplaying of Bannon, that Jews weren't mentioned in the Holocaust statement, etc.  His attitude could use some tweaks as well.  

 

I do agree that Dems need to get out of Washington and see more of America.  They will not like, or probably believe what they see.  This is coming from someone who was raised in a conservative home, in a conservative small town in NC.  Dems truly do not understand what they are dealing with.

I live in a red cell so I'm front and center. I can levy the same charge: these people need to get out of Mayberry. Live amongst diversity, and some Muslim and black friends. They wouldn't be so fearful and hostile.

[Jumbo]

So...to the matter of the tailgate drive-by guys (not to put all of them in the same box, just most)....I'm not going to get into commenting on certain shared characteristics at this time, but I am going to do this, and I'm going to use a few names as example:

@zazzaro703

@aRedskin

@mikered30

 

without any derogatory assignations, it would be my wish that if you want to engage here, you do so and really join in as time allows you--fwiw, i would welcome it

 

to that end, i have a moderator directive for you three specifically for now:

 

your next posts in any tailgate political thread will first, tell us who you supported for president, and then, state your personal positions on each topic you've chosen to post about, and make that a habit when posting

 

as opposed to the trolling-lite (or not so lite) aspects of most drive-bys (again, a lot of detail i could go into here with examples at hand, but am choosing not to) and only questioning/canoodling others, inferred or direct, make your own views on each matter clear, engage in the dialogue more, and then challenge away

 

let us get to know you better

 

[Dan T.]

14 minutes ago, Destino said:

 

...being Trump's press secretary seems like some form of karmic punishment. 

I'd rather work at a daycare, where the shouting mob is more easily won over and my torment isn't broadcast live for all to see.

 

 

January 30, 2017 - White House Press Release

 

The White House Press Office has announced that beginning tomorrow, January 31, each credentialed member the White House Press Corps must participate in a mandatory nap time prior to press briefings conducted by White House spokesman Sean Spicer.

 

"These media types are too wired and cranky at this time of the day," Spicer noted.  "So each day at 1 pm in the Press Room, we'll turn the lights down, issue blankies, and tune in the lullaby channel on Spotify."  Spicer added that the back corner of the Press Room, a no-cookie zone, has been cordoned off for CNN's Jim Acosta.

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

7 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

I live in a red cell so I'm front and center. I can levy the same charge: these people need to get out of Mayberry. Live amongst diversity, and some Muslim and black friends. They wouldn't be so fearful and hostile.

I totally agree.  Any time that I discuss politics with my family (a rarity, because we know where it will lead), my first rebuttal is always 'before we discuss this, I want y'all to concede that I'm the only one in this room that has lived outside of a 60 mile radius of this house'.

 

I still say 'yall' because even though I'm a coverted liberal, I still pander to my audience. 

Edited January 30, 2017 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Elessar78]

3 minutes ago, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

I totally agree.  Any time that I discuss politics with my family (a rarity, because we know where it will lead), my first rebuttal is always 'before we discuss this, I want y'all to concede that I'm the only one in this room that has lived outside of a 60 mile radius of this house'.

I hear ya. I'm pretty centrist but to my wife's family I'm the liberal heathen.

 

when you live here... you hear things like "they are breaking into people's houses and stealing their bibles."

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

4 hours ago, s0crates said:

You're making several assumptions about debatable propositions that I don't have time to discuss at the moment. The following video deals with some of them:

Yes, you should have voted for Hillary.

 

1. She was the best candidate on the ballot. 

2. Donald Trump.