Hersh Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 So let me get this dumb*** POTUS straight. Terrorist wanting to get into the U.S. would have all rushed into the country if they would have announced ahead of time that this was going to happen? So these same terrorists were just having lattes, not really in a hurry, but it's so easy for them to get in now that they would have just made plane reservations to beat the ban. Based on that logic, there must be tens of thousands of them already here since it's that easy to get in on short notice. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
s0crates Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 23 minutes ago, Destino said: So trump chose the seven countries based on Obama administration's vias wavier restrictions that identified the same ones. While I have had no trouble finding that information online, each of the two dozen or so articles I read this morning stop there. Can someone educate me on why the Obama administration chose those same seven countries? I'm not justifying what Trump is doing, I simply want to understand why these seven nations in particular stand out. I don't know the answer to your question either, but this might be related somehow: These are the seven countries we've been bombing: Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Syria, Iraq and Libya. These are the seven countries on Trump's ban list: Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, Destino said: I haven't seen anything saying that Christians have been in less trouble. Do you have a link? Why would I need a link for a general observation? If you want more info ask a reporter who's been covering the Middle East for the past few years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 Just now, Hersh said: So let me get this dumb*** POTUS straight. Terrorist wanting to get into the U.S. would have all rushed into the country if they would have announced ahead of time that this was going to happen? So these same terrorists were just having lattes, not really in a hurry, but it's so easy for them to get in now that they would have just made plane reservations to beat the ban. Based on that logic, there must be tens of thousands of them already here since it's that easy to get in on short notice. In addition, these same terrorists won't schedule their flights into the US 91 days from now when the temporary ban is lifted since they know exactly when it is scheduled to end. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TradeTheBeal! Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 12 minutes ago, tshile said: Am I? Or don't. But for the love of god please stop assigning my motives of being to support/defend trump. It's tiring and lazy. "John Lewis is a piece of garbage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 12 minutes ago, Burgold said: The precedence cited is bull or at least stretched. (You haven't been supporting Trump on this. I know that, but your last couple of posts seem to indicate that you are wrestling with a way to rationalize it) \ Rationalize it? Maybe I'm just trying to understand it? It's hard right now, because everyone gets in a tizzy and the signal to noise ratio sucks. Outrage is at full blast and level headed discussion and analysis is hard to find. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I just hope everyone is still this pissed off and motivated when its time to vote again. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, visionary said: Why would I need a link for a general observation? If you want more info ask a reporter who's been covering the Middle East for the past few years. You don't need to provide a link for your own opinion. I was merely curious and wanted to see any specific reports or articles related to the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 The way a lot of people react right now as if they are in constant fear of another 9/11-scale terrorist attack, I can only imagine what will happen and what sweeping laws will be changed once another bigger scale one takes place in the future (let's hope it never happens though). Losing freedom and/or changing our own values is part of the goals of terrorists in the first place. Whether you agree or disagree with Trump's ban, what it doesn't seem to do at all is address the changing landscape of what "terrorism" has seemed to become over the last decade which is someone with seemingly no past or history, being radicalized after they are already here, and simply purchasing guns legally and then going on a shooting rampage. In fact a lot of the terrorists were not even the immigrants/refugees themselves but their children. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, tshile said: Rationalize it? Maybe I'm just trying to understand it? It's hard right now, because everyone gets in a tizzy and the signal to noise ratio sucks. Outrage is at full blast and level headed discussion and analysis is hard to find. There are times when it is worth getting in a tizzy. Sometimes stuff that seems bad actually is. On the surface, the White House decided to take an action (against Terrorism/Muslims). They opted to take an action against terrorism without looping in the Department of Homeland Security or any US Intelligence Agency. They decided to do so without looping in the Justice Department. They decided to act without even informing them until after the fact and then gave them no time to figure out how to implement it. At best, you have a recipe for confusion, chaos, and abuse. At worst, you have exactly what Trump promised on the campaign trail and something every Constitutional scholar and a vast majority of Republican and Democratic Congressmen vocally rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonArtest15 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: I just hope everyone is still this pissed off and motivated when its time to vote again. Midterms are going to be SO important. Folks have to turn out in numbers for this next year. Assuming he's not impeached by then. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted January 30, 2017 Author Share Posted January 30, 2017 Just now, RonArtest15 said: Midterms are going to be SO important. Folks have to turn out in numbers for this next year. Assuming he's not impeached by then. Even if he is impeached (which I doubt) we still need to do something about his Cabinet... his selections are incompetent, inexperienced, and designed to wreck havoc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visionary Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, tshile said: Rationalize it? Maybe I'm just trying to understand it? It's hard right now, because everyone gets in a tizzy and the signal to noise ratio sucks. Outrage is at full blast and level headed discussion and analysis is hard to find. The problem is that it was not a level headed decision, nor has it been handled as such since. The administration has tossed confusion, misdirection, misleading statements, and lies into the mix and a lot of what has been touted as being less awful or positive about it has not matched reality. Edited January 30, 2017 by visionary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: The way a lot of people react right now as if they are in constant fear of another 9/11-scale terrorist attack, I can only imagine what will happen and what sweeping laws will be changed once another bigger scale one takes place in the future (let's hope it never happens though). Losing freedom and/or changing our own values is part of the goals of terrorists in the first place. Whether you agree or disagree with Trump's ban, what it doesn't seem to do at all is address the changing landscape of what "terrorism" has seemed to become over the last decade which is someone with seemingly no past or history, being radicalized after they are already here, and simply purchasing guns legally and then going on a shooting rampage. In fact a lot of the terrorists were not even the immigrants/refugees themselves but their children. BBC this morning said 48% of the US supports the travel ban. I'd like to know their sample size because that seems pretty high considering what we're seeing now as a public response. If anyone could post some competiting or verifying stats, I might have a better idea about how to feel about your post. You're not wrong, just not sure how much support there would be to go further then what we're doing right now with this kind of public backlash. Edited January 30, 2017 by Renegade7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCalMike Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: BBC this morning said 48% of the country supports the travel ban. I'd like to know their sample size because that seems pretty high considering what we're seeing now as a public response. If anyone could post some competiting or verifying stats, I might have a better idea about how to feel about your post. You're not wrong, just not sure how much support there would be to go further then what we're doing right now with this kind of public backlash. How does BBC break down the support though. Is it just a general "travel ban" poll, because a lot of times people support the general idea of something, until you break down the details and ask specific questions about how it works and whether they support that. Just asking because I don't have the poll/survey in front of me. Edited January 30, 2017 by NoCalMike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busch1724 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: BBC this morning said 48% of the US supports the travel ban. I'd like to know their sample size because that seems pretty high considering what we're seeing now as a public response. If anyone could post some competiting or verifying stats, I might have a better idea about how to feel about your post. You're not wrong, just not sure how much support there would be to go further then what we're doing right now with this kind of public backlash. Keep in the mind the outrage, while vocal, is being demonstrated in cities. Trump voters support the ban and those folks are the 46% or so that voted for the guy. Those folks can be found between the coasts and outside of major cities. There are many people I know in my area of PA that fully support this ban. The ban is one of the reasons they voted for him. To them, this ban is important, right or wrong. Edited January 30, 2017 by Busch1724 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) If we were objectively identifying countries that have been exporting terrorists, Belgium would have made this list before any of the other 7. Edited January 30, 2017 by Riggo-toni 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersh Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 13 minutes ago, Renegade7 said: I just hope everyone is still this pissed off and motivated when its time to vote again. Agreed and we have to remember that most of his supporters don't care about the NSC executive and they support all of his immigration actions now so they will all be out for the midterms 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: Whether you agree or disagree with Trump's ban, what it doesn't seem to do at all is address the changing landscape of what "terrorism" has seemed to become over the last decade which is someone with seemingly no past or history, being radicalized after they are already here, and simply purchasing guns legally and then going on a shooting rampage. In fact a lot of the terrorists were not even the immigrants/refugees themselves but their children. The biggest revelation for the general public, I think, has been one of realizing "islamic extermism" is an ideology. It's not muslims, it's not a certain area of the world, it's an ideology. Taking people of a certain religious faith, and convincing them to commit violence on behalf of the faith. That you can't just bomb that away. Anyways, Trump and his admin seem to be 10 steps backwards in that regard. Their talking point is that they're going to eradicate islamic extremeism. I can't think of a person that's used that phrase, that I came away from thinking "they know what they're talking about." Seems like a phrase used for theatrics, doesn't actually contribute towards a discussion on actually working on the problem... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renegade7 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said: How does BBC break down the support though. Is it just a general "travel ban" poll, because a lot of times people support the general idea of something, until you break down the details and ask specific questions about how it works and whether they support that. Just asking because I don't have the poll/survey in front of me. I just heard it on the radio to work, but way it was framed, I agree it was "overall idea". Think if you did a separate poll on the execution of this executive order, the poll numbers would be different. This was 1990s Bungels level execution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Taylor703 said: Keep telling yourself that. You guys put him there just as much as the republicans did. And me, I'm not a registered republican nor did I vote for his dumbass. It's an exceptionally dumb argument. I know it in detail, and it isn't worth the time to unpack. I have noted the people who think that way use it to here as a form of blame game, trying to avoid any culpability (everyone who could vote and didn't vote for hc directly helped elect trump, or as direct as you can short of voting for him). The only way to stop trump was to vote hc. Many made a choice to go alt-candidates or sit home out of "principle" as they see it, but to they're sitting on a thin soap bubble re: their rationale. Any vote for a stein or a johnson was helping trump, not hc. Those were the obvious mechanics, not spins or feelings or ideas, and that outcome was easily figurable by any competent intellect with some emotional management. These kind of posts as taylor makes is a way for the person to avoid assuming any responsibility for what is being regarded by so many as a historic horror show. And it seems to also give them (in their mind) a "reason" to chide the same side they were chiding before the election, even though they (hc "side") lost. Not surprised soc liked it. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, tshile said: I keep seeing the nationalities of the 9/11 hijackers brought up. Makes me wonder if any of these people are aware that they tried to use hijackers from other places first. They were rejected, because of policies set to provide a higher level of scrutiny of people from certain areas (like yemen, iran, somolia, libya, etc) before 9/11 even happened. After failing to get the required documentation/permission to enter the US they eventually moved on to try people from Saudi Arabia (but only people who had not visited these other places) and only then were their trial runs successful. I believe one guy even used different names to travel to Yemen but was still found out and stopped entry. I might have that detail murky though, been a while since I read the report. I also wonder if these people are unaware that Saudi Arabia has a known problem with extremists in their country; their government and ours is and has been aware of it. They are the Wahhabists. Do these people know these things and are intentionally being obtuse in the discussion, or do they just generally not know? Does the difference matter? Why is this never brought up? Why do we not demand better from the media in that regard? It's public information. It's in public reports from the government. *shrug* There were issues with several people trying to come in from Yemen, but it had less to do with security and more to do with economics and people over staying their visas. People from Yemen had a history of coming and over staying visas illegally because of the economic situation in Yemen and staying and working in the US. (This is discussed in the 9/11 report. I can't get it to copy and paste, but it is on pg. 168) https://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf The plot was heavily Saudi from the start. I think there were 2 or 3 Yemeni that were maybe going to be part of the plan that either couldn't get visas or didn't even try because al qeada knew it would be to hard for them to do it. (Realistically, there appears to be 2 reasons for that. First, bin Laden knew and trusted the Saudis the most, and his goal was a split between the US and Saudi Arabia. More Saudi's would more likely help drive that division.) The other person I think you are referring to was actually Saudi, but he was denied entry for economic reasons while trying to get into the US just like the Yemeni's had issues getting visas (he had $2,800 to his name, a one way ticket to get into the country, flew into Orlando, didn't seem to have any family or anything in the area, and upon more detailed questioning didn't really seem to have a good reason from coming to the US (Disney World and the associated resorts not seeming like a popular destination for a young single Arab male), much less to Orlando so he was denied not for security concerns, but because he looked a lot like somebody that was looking to come here to illegally work.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_al-Qahtani Edited January 30, 2017 by PeterMP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBass1724 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 This is kind of long, but is a quality read. Pretty eye opening stuff whether you agree or disagree with what's going on. https://lawfareblog.com/malevolence-tempered-incompetence-trumps-horrifying-executive-order-refugees-and-visas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tshile Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 10 minutes ago, visionary said: The problem is that it was not a level headed decision, nor has it been handled as such since. The administration has tossed confusion, misdirection, misleading statements, and lies into the mix and a lot of what has been touted as being less awful or positive about it has not matched reality. So the solution is to look at people trying to get past that, and accuse them of rationalizing it (ie: defending/siding with Trump)? I don't think so. But you guys have at it, let me know how getting emotionally riled up works towards understanding and doing anything about it. I hear that often helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 (edited) The best way to stop anyone from doing anything is to tell them they can't. any parent can tell you that. I have a feeling terrorists are now saying the "hold my beer" line. Just to show us we aren't safe no matter what. The ol' stick in the eye. Be vigilant, folks. ~Bang Edited January 30, 2017 by Bang 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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