The immigration thread: American Melting Pot or Get off my Lawn

[tshile]

24 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I'm agreeing with everything you said, but this didn't start with the current administration.

 

This makes you a trump apologist. Just FYI 

🙄

48 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

If you want to have nations like Mexico, Honduras, El Salvador, etc. stop undocumented persons coming to this country, why don't we have fair trade deals with those nations and help boost their economies? That way, people wouldn't want to come here. Oh, wait that hurts our empire and would make us pay more for goods and products? My bad.

 

We should be doing this. And I believe we actually have been doing aid packages for many central and South America countries. 

 

But there needs to be more. You can’t just give them money. Mexican presidents and many other government officials have been working for the cartels. Same with other countries. Giving them money isn’t the total solution. They have to have an incentive to actually fix the problems. 

 

Someone does need to take them to task.  Until now no one has. And the person doing now is categorically unqualified to do it. 

[Bozo the kKklown]

14 minutes ago, tshile said:

We should be doing this. And I believe we actually have been doing aid packages for many central and South America countries. 

 

But there needs to be more. You can’t just give them money. Mexican presidents and many other government officials have been working for the cartels. Same with other countries. Giving them money isn’t the total solution. They have to have an incentive to actually fix the problems. 

 

Someone does need to take them to task.  Until now no one has. And the person doing now is categorically unqualified to do it. 

Jobs with dignity and allow people to live comfortably matter. Thats all Im saying. Its the same with the American worker. No one would risk coming to this country if they had good jobs and stable governments.  (and the US has also destabilized those countries too)

[Destino]

12 hours ago, Larry said:

Just to pick the biggest one?  Do you "have images saved" of Obama intentionally crafting a plan to wholesale strip children from their parents as part of a deliberate policy of scaring people away from attempting illegal immigration?  

 

I haven't looked at the case you suggested (yet). But I'm already willing to bet that it didn't happen because Obama (or whoever it was) directed his staff to come up with a way he can get that kid away from his parents, that'll teach 'em. 

 

But yeah, if your standard is "has either Party completely eliminated immigrants as an underclass? Well, if they haven't, then they did nothing.", then you're right, they both "did nothing". 

 

What should my standards be Larry?  Should I break out the champagne because Obama wasn't intentionally doing the things Trump has happily expanded?  Go democrats!  Way to not be... uh... quite as bad. 

 

The immigration system isn't working.  10+ million illegals already here.  Hundreds of thousands entering each year.  45,000 people held in immigration detention facilities on any given day.  Immigration courts can not handle the capacity.  The federal governments refusal to act on what is clearly their responsibility has left states passing anti immigration laws while cities declare themselves sanctuaries.  This is a failure of leadership, and it has created an evolving and growing humanitarian crisis.    

 

I can not ignore the scope of the problem because Obama didn't want to intentionally harm anyone, while Trump wants to advertise that he gladly will.  I've already told you that I agree those two individuals were very different, so I'm not sure why you keep reducing this to just those Presidents. 

 

Neither party has made any progress and on this issues congress is required for things to substantively change.  Republicans claim to want a Wall but refuse to build one.  Democrats don't want a wall but offer no fleshed out plan of their own for what success on this issue looks like.  I'm all for getting into the weeds on political issues, but on this issue we need a big picture plan and we've needed it for a long time.  It's not about either solving the situation entirely or nothing, it's about doing something, anything, that at least addresses the overall issue.  The federal government has to do it's damn job, and do it in a way that doesn't create an even bigger tragedy than they've already created.

 

 

[No Excuses]

14 minutes ago, Destino said:

Neither party has made any progress and on this issues congress is required for things to substantively change.  Republicans claim to want a Wall but refuse to build one.  Democrats don't want a wall but offer no fleshed out plan of their own for what success on this issue looks like.  I'm all for getting into the weeds on political issues, but on this issue we need a big picture plan and we've needed it for a long time.  It's not about either solving the situation entirely or nothing, it's about doing something, anything, that at least addresses the overall issue.  The federal government has to do it's damn job, and do it in a way that doesn't create an even bigger tragedy than they've already created.

 

Just curious, if the Democrats came out in favor of relaxing immigration and asylum laws to allow legal migration of low-skill labor, while significantly ramping up border security in the South, would you support?

[Destino]

3 hours ago, No Excuses said:

Just curious, if the Democrats came out in favor of relaxing immigration and asylum laws to allow legal migration of low-skill labor, while significantly ramping up border security in the South, would you support?

I'd need more than that because no path forward can ignore the nation sized population of illegals that are already here.  10+ million is a very larger number and has to be addressed.

 

As for the immigration system itself and who we allow in, I look at it like this:  Build a system and spend the money needed to actually be able to enforce the rules.  Just make the damn thing work.  It's not that they aren't trying to enforce the rules, because I'm sure ICE, border patrol, immigration courts, and the rest are all earnestly trying to do their jobs.  The problem is they've proven that, as currently constructed, the entire system simply doesn't work.  Without a system in place that can feasibly enforce the rules, whatever we decide they should be, there really isn't any point in arguing about it. 

 

I'm not concerned about demographics so for me this issue is a great deal simpler than it is for Republicans.  I think immigration of those willing to work hard and stay out of trouble is a good thing for this country, skilled or unskilled.  One doesn't need to be rich or have several degrees to be a contributing member of society. 

 

The asylum situation is a hard one.  You really do need to have qualified people look over those applications, and possibly courts as well, on a case by case basis.  Finding a balance between what’s needed and what can reasonably be done, is a tricky situation.

 

The biggest requirement of mine is that whatever we choose to do we do not replace an immigration problem with a larger, and far worse, humanitarian crisis.  Trying to deport 10+ million immigrants, for example, would do just that.   

 

[Larry]

I do agree that we need some reforms. Some improvements. And I'm talking long term ones. 

 

We may need to recognize that we need several million low wage low skilled workers. Can you come up with a system that does that, without creating an intentional underclass, and without depressing American wages (too much)?

 

i have the impression that for citizens who've married a foreigner, or have foreign relatives, they just have to deal with insane levels of BS. 

 

I really wouldn't have a problem with most (nearly all?) of the Dreamers just becoming citizens. (Or at least eligible for it, right now). 

 

I get the impression that part of the reason for the huge detention detention number is that people's court date is years away. Adding more judges seems like an obvious step. (Although I fear the notion of letting Trump appoint thousands of judges on this issue). 

[CousinsCowgirl84]

23 minutes ago, Larry said:

I do agree that we need some reforms. Some improvements. And I'm talking long term ones. 

 

We may need to recognize that we need several million low wage low skilled workers. Can you come up with a system that does that, without creating an intentional underclass, and without depressing American wages (too much)?

 

 

Getting rid of the minimum wage would do that. Stop demanding that we pay Americans a “living wage” would also help. Immigrants, especially illegal ones don’t have the same opportunities as people who  are born here. Saying it’s unfair that fat ass  Larry only makes 12/hr behind the wallmart counter while at the same time justifying corporations abuse of illegal immigrants is laughable. 

 

We do not need cheap labor, we just think we do. If prices are too high eventually the market will collapse into equilibrium. But that collapse redistributes income. It’s painful.

 

But allowing the super rich to employ the super poor at less than market rates because they are illegals only increases the gap between the wealthy and the poor, as we have seen. 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by CousinsCowgirl84

[Cooked Crack]

 

I can't think of any better way to obtain the Medal of Valspar.

[TheGreatBuzz]

Once for dust, twice for rust.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

11 hours ago, tshile said:

That’s not what I said. 

 

You actually voted for trump. So you should probably keep your accusations of supporting him to yourself. Not only are you wrong about others, but you actually voted for him. 

 

It it seems difficult for you to keep things straight. So maybe not opine on those things so you don’t look like a fool so often? I suppose it’s a matter of choice, ultimately.  

 

@TryTheBeal! voted for Trump?  

 

Edit:  Not that I really care who he voted for to be honest, but based on his posts on certain hot political topics, he comes across to me as very liberal.  Reading that just made me do a double take.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[twa]

 

[TradeTheBeal!]

18 minutes ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

@TryTheBeal! voted for Trump?  

 

Edit:  Not that I really care who he voted for to be honest, but based on his posts on certain hot political topics, he comes across to me as very liberal.  Reading that just made me do a double take.

 

Sure did.  Virginia has open primaries so I scratched for Trump in the GOP primary for the lulz and Bernie in the Dem primary because I thought he was bringing some good dialogue to that platform.  I then gladly voted for Hillary in the general.

 

Tshile brought it up and presented it in a purposefully disingenuous way because he was getting dressed down for dog-whistling...and I was happy to do that for his benefit.  

 

 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

2 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

 

Sure did.  Virginia has open primaries so I scratched for Trump in the GOP primary for the lulz and Bernie in the Dem primary because I thought he was bringing some good dialogue to that platform.  I then gladly voted for Hillary in the general.

 

Tshile brought it up and presented it in a purposefully disingenuous way because he was getting dressed down for dog-whistling...and I was happy to do that for his benefit.  

 

 

 

Ah gotcha.  

[Hersh]

45 minutes ago, twa said:

 

 

 

I'm sure they are using banks for all their money so this should work. 

[visionary]

 

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

I'm sure they are using banks for all their money so this should work. 

Didn’t you watch narcos or blow?

 

all that cash adds up gotta put it somewhere 

[Burgold]

16 hours ago, Destino said:

 

 

Neither party has made any progress and on this issues congress is required for things to substantively change.  Republicans claim to want a Wall but refuse to build one.  Democrats don't want a wall but offer no fleshed out plan of their own for what success on this issue looks like.  I'm all for getting into the weeds on political issues, but on this issue we need a big picture plan and we've needed it for a long time.  It's not about either solving the situation entirely or nothing, it's about doing something, anything, that at least addresses the overall issue.  The federal government has to do it's damn job, and do it in a way that doesn't create an even bigger tragedy than they've already created.

 

 

I don't know that this is entirely fair. I don't know that it is unfair either.

 

I do question what the state of immigration would look like had there been no Mitch McConnell under Obama or Paul Ryan? We do see the direction the Republicans want to go when they control the Executive, Legislative, and to a large degree the judicial branch.

 

I suspect that Obama could have done more wielding only Executive powers, but I also think that the changes needed required  legislative cooperation. He had zero.

[Hersh]

On 6/5/2019 at 11:52 PM, Destino said:

He kicked the can down the road on the dreamers.  That’s why they’re in crisis again today.  He wanted to do better but he could never get congress to act.  Real change requires strong party support, not just one president.  That’s why I spoke in term of Democrats and republican, not Obama and Trump.

 

I’m perfectly comfortable saying democrats did nothing.

 

I’m perfectly comfortable saying you are 100 percent wrong. There is only one party stopping immigration reform. I mean, I guess you can pretend that the GOP didn’t vote on bills passed by the Senate in order to be comfortable in what you said.

[No Excuses]

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

I’m perfectly comfortable saying you are 100 percent wrong. There is only one party stopping immigration reform. I mean, I guess you can pretend that the GOP didn’t vote on bills passed by the Senate in order to be comfortable in what you said.

 

It is a convenient way of excusing the current ridiculous and completely inflexible position of the Republican Party on immigration. The hard right faction which controls this debate now has tanked every bipartisan effort on immigration for quite some time now. 

[tshile]

Yeah cause when I think of Destino, I think: brain washed by the hard right, trump apologist 

[twa]

Which party has failed to follow thru on past immigration/border security agreements?

 

Both parties use it as a political tool instead of working to fix the problems.

 

[No Excuses]

34 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Which party has failed to follow thru on past immigration/border security agreements?

 

 

The one that turned down 18 billion for a dumb border wall in exchange for protecting Dreamers. 

[twa]

54 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

The one that turned down 18 billion for a dumb border wall in exchange for protecting Dreamers. 

 

that was a agreement?

Not only was it NOT a agreement , it was NOT 18 Billion for a wall(dumb or otherwise)

 

was that wall funded like the fence Dems voted for? 

Edited June 7, 2019 by twa

[TheGreatBuzz]

2 hours ago, tshile said:

Yeah cause when I think of Destino, I think: brain washed by the hard right, trump apologist 

Kinda like when I got called a libtard.

[No Excuses]

Pointing out that Destin is wrong here doesn’t imply that he’s some right wing but job. 

 

It is factually true that the hard right tanked a bipartisan immigration bill in 2013 that easily passed the Senate. I know this gets in the way of low effort “OMGZ BOTH SIDES” talking points but we would have a vastly different immigration situation if John Boehner hadn’t caved to pressure from the hard right. 

 

 

Quote

 

If enacted, the bill would have made it possible for many undocumented immigrants to gain legal status and eventually citizenship. It would have increased border security by adding up to 40,000 border patrol agents. It also would have advanced talent-based immigration through a points-based immigration system. New visas had been proposed in this legislation, including a visa for entrepreneurs and a W visa for lower skilled workers.^[4]It also proposed new restrictions on H1B visa program to prevent its abuse and additional visas/green-cards for students with science, technology, engineering, and mathematics (STEM) degrees from U.S. institutions. The bill also included a $1.5 billion youth jobs program and repealed the Diversity Visa Lottery in favor of prospective legal immigrants who are already in the United States.

The non-partisan Congressional Budget Officeestimated this reform bill would have reduced the U.S. fiscal deficit by US$197 billion over the next ten years and by $700 billion by 2033.^[5]Its report also states that, if the bill had been passed, U.S. wages would have been 0.1 percent lower in 2023 and 0.5 percent higher in 2033 than under current law.^[6]The Social Security Administration said that it would help add $276 billion in revenue over the next 10 years while costing only $33 billion.^[7]