The Gun Control Debate Thread

[Springfield]

27 minutes ago, crabbypatty said:

 

It doesn't matter what it was in response to, it was mickey mouse horse**** you were spouting, so like I said, at least try to be a little knowledgeable.

and yes, "you people". As in, you people who want to try and eviscerate a constitutionally protected right, by lumping all us law abiding gun owners together as crazy wannabe "play solders".

If we're playing for the same team, then why are we arguing about trying to erase the constitutionally protected rights of fellow citizens? Or do we just pay attention to the ones we like and ignore the parts of the document that this country was founded on?

I think it's pretty obvious which side of that fence you stand on.

 

I never said anything about the constitution.  Like, at all.

 

You just took exception because I made fun of people who owned AR-15’s as the make believe military.  Probably the same chumps walking around with an open carry all day long, waiving a Confederate flag, thinking to themselves “I wish a muthu****a would.”

 

And yes, the NRA is a lying ass org.

[PleaseBlitz]

7 minutes ago, twa said:

 

Nothing is protected if the court decides to eliminate it.

 

 

[No Excuses]

58 minutes ago, crabbypatty said:

Here's another fact for you. NZ has a LAW mandating that standard mag capacity is 7 rounds. 7.

The shooter had 30, 40 and 60 round magazines according to an article I read.. So obviously the LAW prohibiting using those magazines worked, right?

 

You people will never get it through your heads that laws don't matter to criminals and those intent on killing. The only thing they do is penalize those who would follow the law.. you know, the LAW ABIDING citizens. Hell NZ and everywhere else has laws against murder, it doesn't seem to stop those who are so inclined, does it?

I know, maybe they should pass MORE laws banning murder. I'm sure that will work this time.

 

Must be fun to live in a fantasy land, where you selectively decide that laws don't work for your weird hobby of being a make-believe tough guy.

 

 

Pretty much the entire developed world has figured out how to regulate guns and live peacefully in a society in which every dip**** doesn't feel the need to buy a gun. Except the neanderthals in the US for whom something pesky called facts and data take less precedence than their personal feelings and insecurities.

Edited March 18, 2019 by No Excuses

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

I'll just toss this out there.  For those that think people don't hunt with AR15s or use it for home protection, that statement is not completely accurate.  Me personally, I don't hunt anyhow and my first choice for home protection is either my 12 ga shotgun or my Colt 45.  ATM, it's my Colt, sitting in a biometric safe on my nightstand beside my side of the bed.

 

Is that to say that I wouldn't use an AR15 for home protection?  No, anything is possible, but it's not practical for me at this time, same with the shotgun.  My gun safe that holds all my rifles and shotguns is in another room and have been since we had our daughter.  And now,  all the rifles have trigger locks on them, even in the safe.  But to say that it's a BS excuse to buy one for that purpose or someone claiming to use one for that purpose just seems silly to me.  

 

Does it fit the image of traditional home defense weapons that has been etched into our brains for decades?  Of course not, most of the time, one is thinking shotgun or pistol/handgun.  But to be perfectly honest, there could be advantages as to using one for home defense as opposed to a handgun or shotgun.  I don't know how many on here have fired a shotgun before, but it kicks a hell of a lot more than a .22LR or .223/5.56.  The reason shotguns have been traditionally more popular as home defense is the "point in the general direction and pray and spray"  aspect of it.  

 

As far as hunting with them, it's becoming more popular in that community.  Plenty of articles out there explaining the benefits/preferences of hunters using AR model rifles to hunt with.  Manufacturers are even making them in larger calibers because it has become more popular over the years.  Hunting, like everything else, has evolved.  Depending on what one is hunting, using an assault rifle might be more beneficial than using a a bolt action rifle or one with minimum capacity.  Again, I don't hunt, just going by research I've done on this.  Could probably ask my cousin to shed some light on it as he is an avid hunter and it would be nice to get a hunters perspective (talking real person I know vs. reading articles about it) and see how often he sees them used.

 

Edit:  Not saying we don't need better gun control, regulations, etc.  Just commenting generally on the topic of assault rifles being used for hunting and home defense.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by Dont Taze Me Bro

[Springfield]

****, if the only thing available as a home defense weapon is a hand grenade then I’d probably use one of those.

 

But yeah Taze, I think that a pistol or a shotgun is a better option for home defense.  And by home defense I mean, waking up groggy in the middle of the night cause my wife heard a strange noise.  I don’t mean protecting it from a mass of zombies (or Mexicans) trying to storm it.  I’d assume an AR would probably be better for the latter.

 

But if the only gun I owned was an AR then I’d probably use it for everything, cause that was my option.

[tshile]

An ar-15 is absolutely used for hunting. It can absolutely be configured in a way to make it an excellent hunting rifle. If you want to chamber it up to a Grendel you could do bigger game. I think most of it’s hunting use is from people that wanted an ar-15 to shoot and it just so happens they can use it to hunt what they want so they use that instead of buying a more traditional/appropriate style gun - but I’m just guessing. It’s not what I would purchase for hunting. But ruling it out because of its military look is silly. It’s an accurate rifle that can go up to 22” barrel length and be cambered up for bigger game. It absolutely works as a hunting rifle.  And people absolutely use it. 

 

Its also got good/big use for protecting property - like farmers. 

 

Switch it to 300 blackout and you’ve got a heck of a home defense gun if you can design it to be as compact as you want, which varies by state, but you can essentially make them giant pistols. 

 

Id get it if I had a farm. Otherwise it wouldn’t be my first choice. 

 

Every now and then the pro control people get riled up and start ****ting all over the entire pro-gun community, mostly while saying stuff that isn’t correct. 

 

It makes it harder to support your ideas when you do that. 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

Just now, Springfield said:

****, if the only thing available as a home defense weapon is a hand grenade then I’d probably use one of those.

 

But yeah Taze, I think that a pistol or a shotgun is a better option for home defense.  And by home defense I mean, waking up groggy in the middle of the night cause my wife heard a strange noise.  I don’t mean protecting it from a mass of zombies (or Mexicans) trying to storm it.  I’d assume an AR would probably be better for the latter.

 

But if the only gun I owned was an AR then I’d probably use it for everything, cause that was my option.

 

Absolutely.  I got married in 1998, in 1999 I bought my first gun, for home defense.  It was a Remington 870 express 12 gauge pump action shotgun.  I didn't personally purchase another gun/rifle until 2017, though throughout the years I was gifted a rifle by my wife's grandfather and inherited multiple rifles/shotguns from my grandfather after he passed away back in 2013.  

 

With the federal assault rifle ban in place back then, the thought never crossed my mind, even when it expired in 2004 under the Bush Administration.  But I can see why people, especially those buying their first firearm, might choose an assault rifle for home defense.  If anything because it can be multi-purpose (home defense, hunting - depending on caliber and target shooting at the range).  That's also not saying that some people only buy them because they think it looks cool, because there are.  

 

 

[Burgold]

I think that's because some of the gun rights' advocates want to drill down to the tiniest minutia whereas the gun control folks want to look at the forest and the trees, but couldn't really care less about the microbes making the termites sick.

 

Gun Control person: The number of mass shooting incidents has dramatically increased in recent years to the extent that we are having an incident that involves multiple homicides almost every other day. We ought to do something about that? What can we do?

 

Gun Control person: Every other nation in the world has a better record of limiting gun related deaths by a large magnitude. This includes countries engaged in a hot war like Syria. What are they doing better than we are that we can learn from?

 

Gun Rights person-- what is the firing rate of the original AR-15 rifle made in 1959 and how does that differ from the firing rate of early 21st models. What is the chief differences in adaptability between the original and current models? Is there any difference in the metallurgy? What is the exact alloy used in the safety pin. If you can't answer all of these questions and any other in this fifty page questionnaire you clearly don't know **** about guns and can't have an opinion.

[Springfield]

There aren’t any ideas @tshile

 

Or there are ideas but nobody is going to agree which accomplishes the same thing as having none.

 

And here we are.

[PleaseBlitz]

5 minutes ago, Burgold said:

I think that's because some of the gun rights' advocates want to drill down to the tiniest minutia whereas the gun control folks want to look at the forest and the trees, but couldn't really care less about the microbes making the termites sick.

 

Gun Control person: The number of mass shooting incidents has dramatically increased in recent years to the extent that we are having an incident that involves multiple homicides almost every other day. We ought to do something about that? What can we do?

 

Gun Control person: Every other nation in the world has a better record of limiting gun related deaths by a large magnitude. This includes countries engaged in a hot war like Syria. What are they doing better than we are that we can learn from?

 

Gun Rights person-- what is the firing rate of the original AR-15 rifle made in 1959 and how does that differ from the firing rate of early 21st models. What is the chief differences in adaptability between the original and current models? Is there any difference in the metallurgy? What is the exact alloy used in the safety pin. If you can't answer all of these questions and any other in this fifty page questionnaire you clearly don't know **** about guns and can't have an opinion.

 

Also:  

 

Gun Rights Person:  Gun control advocates don't like AR-15s just because they look scary

Gun Control Person:  Actually, I never said one thing about how they look, rather, they are the weapon of choice is nearly every large-scale mass shooting in American for the past decade. 

Gun Rights Person:  Just because they look scary.  

[tshile]

14 minutes ago, Burgold said:

If you can't answer all of these questions and any other in this fifty page questionnaire you clearly don't know **** about guns and can't have an opinion.

 

Except that’s sillyness and you’re building a straw man. 

 

If you’re going to go around telling everyone what the laws should be, you might want to understand the things you’re writing these new laws about. 

 

No one is asking you to compare alloys. They’re asking you do know the topic a little better than “that looks like those guns I see in those action movies” which is about as deep as most of you can go (judging by your forum posts)

 

pick a topic that you feel well versed in that has room for a wide range of correct views.  Imagine a person with a conflicting (but not necessarily incorrect) view as yours coming into the conversation saying tons of things you know are not only incorrect, but strongly suggest this person is lacking quite a bit on the subject. You notice this multiple times while hearing out their argument. Does that make you more more or less inclined to consider adopting their view?

 

if they also **** all over everyone who feels the way you currently do, are you more or less inclinded?

 

you all need more support on your side.  Not less. You think these issues are helping you? You think these guys ****ting all over people that own an AR-15 are convincing me that you all should get your laws put in place?

 

im actually cool with banning semi automatic weapons. Not just AR’s. That’s the type of pro-gun person I am. 

 

And based on how many of you post about the issue, I’d never vote for you to rewrite the gun laws. The assholishness and lack of knowledges about guns (while declaring everyone else stupid) tells me I can’t trust you with the responsibility. 

 

(Not everything I said here applies to you burgold  I know you’re not well versed in guns but I don’t believe you’ve been a jerk about it outside of an emotional outburst after a tragedy which is completely expected and reasonable in my book, and I have them too...)

Edited March 18, 2019 by tshile

[crabbypatty]

1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

 

Must be fun to live in a fantasy land, where you selectively decide that laws don't work for your weird hobby of being a make-believe tough guy.

 

 

Pretty much the entire developed world has figured out how to regulate guns and live peacefully in a society in which every dip**** doesn't feel the need to buy a gun. Except the neanderthals in the US for whom something pesky called facts and data take less precedence than their personal feelings and insecurities.

Straight to the insults I see. if I'm choosing to be a "make believe tough guy" then you're choosing to be a real life cuck. Which is fine by me, but there's no need to look down your long nose at me because I choose to exercise my constitutionally protected right and see gun control as an infringement on that right.

 

I didn't "selectively" decide the laws don't work, THE CRIMINALS decide that. There are numerous examples of laws not meaning a damn thing to those who are intent on murdering others. Infringing on those who follow the law in hopes of stopping those who would murder is flat out wrong, especially when we're talking about a right that is laid out in the document that founded our country.

 

Just because you say things are illegal or "bad" will not stop those determined to do what they want to do, regardless of what politicians say. Drugs have been used as the closest example, because they're illegal damn near everywhere but they are widely available despite what the law says. (By the way, drug deaths outstrip gun deaths 2:1 in this country, even though they're illegal), And by proxy, many of the gun deaths in this country are drug related.

 

[No Excuses]

20 minutes ago, crabbypatty said:

Straight to the insults I see. if I'm choosing to be a "make believe tough guy" then you're choosing to be a real life cuck. Which is fine by me, but there's no need to look down your long nose at me because I choose to exercise my constitutionally protected right and see gun control as an infringement on that right.

 

I didn't "selectively" decide the laws don't work, THE CRIMINALS decide that. There are numerous examples of laws not meaning a damn thing to those who are intent on murdering others. Infringing on those who follow the law in hopes of stopping those who would murder is flat out wrong, especially when we're talking about a right that is laid out in the document that founded our country.

 

 

Your argument is basically that because laws can’t prevent all gun violence, we might as well not enact them. Which is a load of bull**** because no one is suggesting that stricter gun laws will completely eradicate gun violence. Developed countries with far stricter gun laws than ours are safer and have significantly less gun violence, which makes it apparent that laws actually do work in this space.

 

Gun control laws work when they are applied and enforced. And courts have consistently ruled that regulating the sale and distribution of guns does not violate the 2nd amendment.

 

Please talk in facts and not your feelings. You say a bunch of nonsense, don’t cite anything to back it up and then assume we should take your seriously.  

Edited March 18, 2019 by No Excuses

[Springfield]

By @crabbypatty logic, we shouldn’t bother trying to stop mass murders.  People are just gonna do it anyhow.

 

I have to send my kids to school in a country where this is a common opinion.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Springfield

[Simmsy]

It seems to me that for gun rights advocates, their argument or reasons for wanting a gun come down to two things: "Its my right!" and "I need to protect my family". Now how come your right to own a gun is more important than my right to go to the grocery store and not get my head blown off? Why is your right to own a gun more important than the right for someone to peacefully pray at their house of worship or children at school? This argument now sounds selfish and ignorant to me. Your wants and needs are now more important than the lives and safety of every other American in this country? Not very patriotic.

 

I'm also sick of people needing to protect their families with guns. If you want to keep a gun in your house to protect keep your family safe, I can completely understand that reasoning. However, people who buy guns in case of an apocalypse or in case they need to overthrow the government...you're insane. 

 

I would also like to add that if you feel the need to take a gun on your hip everywhere you go, you're also whackjob and shouldn't have a gun. I understand that certain people actually need more protection (politicians/celebrities/judges/cops/etc), but regular "Joe Schmo" doesn't need a gun at all times. I'm almost 35 years old and I've never once needed a gun, there was one time where I could've legally shot someone, but even that ended up with no one getting hurt. If you saw someone wearing a helmet and elbow pads everywhere just in case they fell down, you would think of them as unhinged. Just so you know, I've fallen down WAY more than I've ever needed a gun. Go buy a helmet, people.

[TradeTheBeal!]

Some defend human rights.  Some defend gun rights.

 

One’s priorities determines one’s position.

Edited March 18, 2019 by TryTheBeal!

[crabbypatty]

20 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

 

Your argument is basically that because laws can’t prevent all gun violence, we might as well not enact them. Which is a load of bull**** because no one is suggesting that stricter gun laws will completely eradicate gun violence. Developed countries with far stricter gun laws than ours are safer and have significantly less gun violence, which makes it apparent that laws actually do work in this space.

 

Gun control laws work when they are applied and enforced. And courts have consistently ruled that regulating the sale and distribution of guns does not violate the 2nd amendment.

 

Please talk in facts and not your feelings. You say a bunch of nonsense, don’t cite anything to back it up and then assume we should take your seriously.  

No, I'm saying punishing law abiding gun owners for the actions of a few by enacting strict gun control is not the answer.

People have shown that if they're intent on doing  something, they're gonna do it, laws or no laws. That is a fact, not feelings.

 

Developed countries with stricter gun laws do not have the 2nd amendment, which was put there for a reason. Do you know why gun owners fight every single piece of legislation that comes down? Because it's incrementalism, and starts down a very slippery slope that is really hard to climb back up once you let yourself hit the bottom.

You start with one "common sense" gun law, and before you know it you end up like California, with arbitrary features being banned because they look or sound scary.

[Burgold]

20 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

 

Your argument is basically that because laws can’t prevent all gun violence, we might as well not enact them. Which is a load of bull**** because no one is suggesting that stricter gun laws will completely eradicate gun violence. Developed countries with far stricter gun laws than ours are safer and have significantly less gun violence, which makes it apparent that laws actually do work in this space.

 

Gun control laws work when they are applied and enforced. And courts have consistently ruled that regulating the sale and distribution of guns does not violate the 2nd amendment.

 

Please talk in facts and not your feelings. You say a bunch of nonsense, don’t cite anything to back it up and then assume we should take your seriously.  

More, they work best when the laws are nationalized. The problem with localized gun laws is that they are so easy to skirt around. How hard is it for someone in DC to get a gun in Virginia? How hard is it for someone in Illinois to get a gun in Kentucky or Indiana.

 

It's true that unenforced laws do a bad job of preventing crimes, but that's a fraudulent article on a couple levels. First, we can see that gun control laws are effective (Peter MP presented the data in a very scientific and credible fashion.) Second though is the fact that there has been a systematic effort to defund and minimize efforts to enforce existing laws. This dishonesty has helped push the narrative.

Just now, crabbypatty said:

No, I'm saying punishing law abiding gun owners for the actions of a few by enacting strict gun control is not the answer.

People have shown that if they're intent on doing  something, they're gonna do it, laws or no laws. That is a fact, not feelings.

So, you are saying Americans are uniquely more criminal, more violent, and more mentally unstable than every other nation's citizens? You are saying we are worse as human beings than the people of every other nation?

 

Because if it's only intent... there's a hell of a lot more intent to murder in America than EVERY other nation in the world. In other words, your facts ring hollow.

[crabbypatty]

17 minutes ago, Springfield said:

By @crabbypatty logic, we shouldn’t bother trying to stop mass murders.  People are just gonna do it anyhow.

 

I have to send my kids to school in a country where this is a common opinion.

 

I'd love to know how you intend to stop mass murderers. Obviously anyone who decides to shoot up a night club or school is either mentally deranged, or a jihadist or just a sick ****er.

 

Have you ever been in a school shooting? I have. 4 dead, including the kid that used to sit right next to me the day it happened. It hasn't changed how I feel about the 2A, and in fact has helped shape my thoughts on the issue.

My kids have to go to school in the same country, same as yours.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by crabbypatty

[TradeTheBeal!]

Dark and folksy personal anecdote!!!

 

Also, the NRA is a death cult.

[Springfield]

6 minutes ago, crabbypatty said:

 

I'd love to know how you intend to stop mass murderers. Obviously anyone who decides to shoot up a night club or school is either mentally deranged, or a jihadist or just a sick ****er.

 

Every gun purchase requires a mental health test.  Frequent gun buyer?  Get a mental health card that you renew every 5 years showing that you aren’t ****ed in the head.

 

(only half joking)

 

 

I mean we can’t even get universal background checks.  This talk about how we can stop mass murders has gone on for years and nothing ever changes so what’s the point.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Springfield

[Burgold]

29 minutes ago, Springfield said:

 

Every gun purchase requires a mental health test.  Frequent gun buyer?  Get a mental health card that you renew every 5 years showing that you aren’t ****ed in the head.

 

(only half joking)

 

 

I mean we can’t even get universal background checks.  This talk about how we can stop mass murders has gone on for years and nothing ever changes so what’s the point.

The Founding Fathers actually laid out the solution quite neatly.

They said we have the right to bare arms. Well, a bare arm would end at the wrist. Therefore, people who want guns should have their hands cut off. Hands are ornamentation. An arm with a hand is no long bare.

[Berggy9598]

2 hours ago, crabbypatty said:

Straight to the insults I see. if I'm choosing to be a "make believe tough guy" then you're choosing to be a real life cuck. Which is fine by me, but there's no need to look down your long nose at me because I choose to exercise my constitutionally protected right and see gun control as an infringement on that right.

 

I didn't "selectively" decide the laws don't work, THE CRIMINALS decide that. There are numerous examples of laws not meaning a damn thing to those who are intent on murdering others. Infringing on those who follow the law in hopes of stopping those who would murder is flat out wrong, especially when we're talking about a right that is laid out in the document that founded our country.

 

Just because you say things are illegal or "bad" will not stop those determined to do what they want to do, regardless of what politicians say. Drugs have been used as the closest example, because they're illegal damn near everywhere but they are widely available despite what the law says. (By the way, drug deaths outstrip gun deaths 2:1 in this country, even though they're illegal), And by proxy, many of the gun deaths in this country are drug related.

 

Purely out of curiosity, who are The Criminals? What do they look like? Do they have a striped shirt and a robber mask? Do they speak in a 1940s street slang Italian accent and say the word see after every sentence? I know, they have face tattoos and speak Spanish right? Remind me when a gang member or someone in a striped shirt and robber mask shot up a school. These "criminals" are nothing more than a boogeyman. Mass shootings are committed by guys you couldn't pick out of a lineup right up until the moment they commit mass murder. 

[Springfield]

7 minutes ago, Berggy9598 said:

Purely out of curiosity, who are The Criminals? What do they look like? Do they have a striped shirt and a robber mask? Do they speak in a 1940s street slang Italian accent and say the word see after every sentence? I know, they have face tattoos and speak Spanish right? Remind me when a gang member or someone in a striped shirt and robber mask shot up a school. These "criminals" are nothing more than a boogeyman. Mass shootings are committed by guys you couldn't pick out of a lineup right up until the moment they commit mass murder. 

 

Actually, there’s often times when I see a kid, probably 16-25.  Disheveled, unkempt.  Probably twiggy with dead eyes.  White of course.

 

I say to myself, that guy could shoot up a school.

[Berggy9598]

1 minute ago, Springfield said:

 

Actually, there’s often times when I see a kid, probably 16-25.  Disheveled, unkempt.  Probably twiggy with dead eyes.  White of course.

 

I say to myself, that guy could shoot up a school.

Yes! That kid is buying a gun on the black market, but not if he thinks his teacher has a gun then he'll just go do his homework.