The Gun Control Debate Thread

[TheGoodBits]

3 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

There are probably a few. 

 

There are also more than a few who need institutionalized treatment and can't get it because the mental health system was gutted and shuttered when reform should have been the order of the day.

 

The number of people in this country who want to murder someone but are deterred by the fact that strangers might have a gun nearby is exactly zero. Not one. Not two. Zero.

 

It's beyond silly to dream up scenarios where this might occur. 

[twa]

2 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

The number of people in this country who want to murder someone but are deterred by the fact that strangers might have a gun nearby is exactly zero. Not one. Not two. Zero.

 

It's beyond silly to dream up scenarios where this might occur. 

 

It certainly deters them from killing certain people.....to deny that is silly.

[Larry]

2 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

I think my points are obvious if you open your mind to alternative views

 

Your points are obvious.  

 

Obviously stupid.  

 

There's the "banning handguns while allowing them to flood in from a 10 minute drive away doesn't stop people from getting guns, therefore we should just keep flooding the country with them and ignoring the obvious, predictable, results" one.  

 

There's the "laws have absolutely no effect on anybody except the people who I want to keep doing what they're doing" one.  

 

Mostly what I'm demonstrating, by asking you to actually make your points, instead of reciting the first half of a talking point and waiting for people to all think you actually said something, is demonstrating that even you rhink your points are so stupid that you won't come out and actually say them in black and white.  

 

[TheGoodBits]

Just now, twa said:

 

It certainly deters them from killing certain people.....to deny that is silly.

 

You mean people who have.. wait for it... police or personal security/bodyguard protection?  

 

You guys are really something. 

[twa]

Just now, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

You mean people who have.. wait for it... police or personal security/bodyguard protection?  

 

You guys are really something. 

 

I mean many more than that.

But since you bring it up, why should certain people be afforded better protection ?

 

Denying the right to defend yourself and others is problematic.

[Larry]

12 minutes ago, skinsfan_1215 said:

 

The number of people in this country who want to murder someone but are deterred by the fact that strangers might have a gun nearby is exactly zero. Not one. Not two. Zero.

 

It's beyond silly to dream up scenarios where this might occur. 

 

I wouldn't automatically just to that conclusion.  

 

I will note, for example.  When Florida became the first state in the US to issue concealed carry permits, one of the things that happened was a sudden rash of people being robbed while coming out of airports.  Seems that the robbers were scared of maybe trying to rob somebody who might be armed, and their response was to rob people who they could be pretty sure were unarmed.  

 

(At the time, also, rental cars in Florida had license plates that started with "R".  And there was a rash of people intentionally causing fender benders with rental cars, and then when they pulled over to exchange information, robbing them.  Again, on the assumption that somebody driving a rental car is unarmed.  State had to change the license plates on their rental cars.)  

 

I'd say that there's plenty of evidence that concealed carry laws at least caused criminals to alter their behavior.  Now, whether it cut down on the number of robberies, or simply cause them to move to a different spot, might be harder to prove.  

Edited September 5, 2019 by Larry

[No Excuses]

Somehow the entire developed world has figured out protection and self defense without the mass proliferation and easy access to guns. 

 

It is almost like easy sale and distribution of guns makes society less safe than more.  

Edited September 5, 2019 by No Excuses

[Larry]

6 minutes ago, twa said:

But since you bring it up, why should certain people be afforded better protection ?

 

Why, twa, 

 

I had no idea that you supported banning all private security/protection, becase ordinary people can't afford them.  

 

Do you support banning private health insurance, too?  

[No Excuses]

27 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

Correct, in a place where handguns are already banned. 

 

In a place where guns flood the city from nearby states, where gun control is non-existent. 

 

https://www.nbcchicago.com/blogs/ward-room/chicago-gun-trace-report-2017-454016983.html

 

It’s almost like criminals benefit from states that make it easy to purchase and distribute guns.

[twa]

2 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

Why, twa, 

 

I had no idea that you supported banning all private security/protection, becase ordinary people can't afford them.  

 

Do you support banning private health insurance, too?  

 

I support banning secret service protection.....they can purchase all the insurance they want.

[Renegade7]

31 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

Correct, in a place where handguns are already banned. 

 

 

That was struck down almost 10 years ago.  And reason I posted that is because I didnt agree with your point of throwing out how the homicide rate in this country is nowhere near that of some smaller countries, this country is huge and the problem is worse in some parts then others, picking an average like that doesnt tell the full story, jus a story.

[No Excuses]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

That was struck down almost 10 years ago.  And reason I posted that is because I didnt agree with your point of throwing out how the homicide rate in this country is nowhere near that of some smaller countries, this country is huge and the problem is worse in some parts then others, picking an average like that doesnt tell the full story, jus a story.

 

The US homicide rate is higher than every other developed country, with gun-related homicides being a major contributor so he's wrong on this too.

[twa]

5 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

The US homicide rate is higher than every other developed country, with gun-related homicides being a major contributor so he's wrong on this too.

 

Is that because our ancestors were kicked out of every other developed country?

[Larry]

1 minute ago, twa said:

 

Is that because our ancestors were kicked out of every other developed country?

 

So, you're claiming that Americans are simply more homicidally prone than everybody else (and using that claim to justify handing out guns to all of them?)

[Commander PK]

24 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

That was struck down almost 10 years ago.  And reason I posted that is because I didnt agree with your point of throwing out how the homicide rate in this country is nowhere near that of some smaller countries, this country is huge and the problem is worse in some parts then others, picking an average like that doesnt tell the full story, jus a story.

 

This country is huge but the per capita stats are what they are.  The problem is worse in some parts of the country as opposed to others.  Why is that?

[No Excuses]

Just now, Painkiller said:

 

This country is huge but the per capita stats are what they are.  The problem is worse in some parts of the country as opposed to others.  Why is that?

 

Why don’t you tell us? We already know that Chicago’s gun problem is a direct result of Indiana’s relaxed gun laws. 

[Commander PK]

27 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

The US homicide rate is higher than every other developed country, with gun-related homicides being a major contributor so he's wrong on this too.

 

so now we are only talking about developed countries.  How does a country go from non-developed to developed?  Does it matter what they murder each other with? 

4 minutes ago, No Excuses said:

 

Why don’t you tell us? We already know that Chicago’s gun problem is a direct result of Indiana’s relaxed gun laws. 

 

How do we know this, because Chicago's mayor said so?

 

so for the sake of argument, is it Indiana's fault a bunch of killers come over there to buy/steal guns then go back to the City to murder each other?  Wouldn't Chicago's killers just go someplace else if Indiana passed the same restrictions? 

 

Heroin, for example, is not made in the United States...but it's plentiful here.  Where does the Heroin come from and how does it get here?  Demand for Heroin is high, so they find a way to get it in. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Painkiller

[No Excuses]

4 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

so now we are only talking about developed countries.  How does a country go from non-developed to developed?  Does it matter what they murder each other with? 

 

The US should be compared to countries within its economic and social bracket. Why the hell would we compare ourselves to a developing country like Mexico?

5 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

How do we know this, because Chicago's mayor said so? 

 

The Mayors office, the Chicago Police Department and University of Chicago's Crime Lab. But I am sure they are all in on it on some giant conspiracy and we should dismiss all data that disagrees with our fact-less stupid ideas.

[Commander PK]

54 minutes ago, Larry said:

 

So, you're claiming that Americans are simply more homicidally prone than everybody else (and using that claim to justify handing out guns to all of them?)

 

To deny we have a cultural problem with violence in this country is disingenuous and sticking your head in the sand.  We are a great nation, but largely a very immature one, and we have significant cultural and social problems and the chickens have come home to roost.  The gun is the weapon of choice, but the environment in the U.S. that led to all this gun violence in this country won't go away because we pass a few window dressing laws that accomplish nothing.  I may be in the extreme minority on that opinion on this message board, but that doesn't make me wrong.

[Larry]

56 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

 

so for the sake of argument, is it Indiana's fault a bunch of killers come over there to buy/steal guns then go back to the City to murder each other?  Wouldn't Chicago's killers just go someplace else if Indiana passed the same restrictions? 

 

Heroin, for example, is not made in the United States...but it's plentiful here.  Where does the Heroin come from and how does it get here?  Demand for Heroin is high, so they find a way to get it in. 

 

But what about the Wookie?

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

The gun is the weapon of choice, but the environment in the U.S. that led to all this gun violence in this country won't go away because we pass a few window dressing laws that accomplish nothing.  I may be in the extreme minority on that opinion on this message board, but that doesn't make me wrong.

 

You arent having this debate in context, what's more realistic to fix first, our gun laws loopholes or culture problem? 

 

Since you want to being up developing countries, you have any idea how many firearms in Latin American countries like Mexico were bought legally in the US and sent down there? Our gun laws arent jus killing people here, they are killing people in other countries.  There are so many guns in this country that when they cant be used anymore, they become burners and end up used by the cartels south of us.

 

This is why showing something like per capita murders misses the point and makes a point that at minimum isnt helping the discussion.

[Larry]

10 minutes ago, Painkiller said:

To deny we have a cultural problem with violence in this country is disingenuous and sticking your head in the sand. 

 

I didn't dismiss it.  (Although I'll point out, it's the job of the person making the claim to prove it.)  

 

I pointed out that even if you are stupid enough to believe that Americans are three times more homicidal than Canadians, that's not a reason why we should hand them four times as many guns.  "Ooh, those people over there look like they're a lot more likely to murder somebody than most people.  They obviously need more guns." is, well, about as rational as most of the talking points in this thread.  

[tshile]

6 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

what's more realistic to fix first, our gun laws loopholes or culture problem? 

You think one can be fixed without the other?

 

i absolutely don’t. 

[twa]

1 hour ago, Larry said:

 

So, you're claiming that Americans are simply more homicidally prone than everybody else (and using that claim to justify handing out guns to all of them?)

 

Well certainly not to the insane or felons.....and they must be purchased(this ain't no Dem program)

[TradeTheBeal!]

Maybe gun worship IS the cultural problem?