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US Soccer thread.


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8 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

I say this every 2 years. We're losing kids built like Messi or Iniesta to baseball/basketball/football? Don't really think so. Our national team, bar Australia, ran more (kms) than any other team in the previous WC. There are a handful or players in MLS (and college) as fast and athletic as Cristiano Ronaldo. Just because everybody in America says it, doesn't make it true. 

 

First, it is a stupid point.  You are taking the extremely rare exceptions and holding them up as some sort of norm, which isn't realistic.  However, IT is listed at 5-9, but he even admits to being 5-8.  A whole inch taller.  Sproles is 5-6 so even shorter.  Messi left Argentina at 13 to move to Barcelona because they would pay for his HGH treatments.  How many Americans do you think would leave the US to go to Spain to get HGH treatments?  The MLS isn't going pay for it.

 

The fact of the matter is that soccer is more organized and coaches more trained on the extreme local levels than any other sport I've been involved in or heard of other people being involved in and we still struggle (on the men's side).  The difference is in the other countries is that kids grow up thinking primarily about soccer and that soccer is a major sport in those countries and as a result a major revenue generator and also then a realistic way to make a very good living in those countries.

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5 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

The difference is in the other countries is that kids grow up thinking primarily about soccer and that soccer is a major sport in those countries and as a result a major revenue generator and also then a realistic way to make a very good living in those countries.

 

I was thinking about this the other day, our best athletes make far more money playing sports other then soccer.  Soccer may never catch up, but man would it be cool to see someone like Antonio Brown or Tyreek Hill playing for the men's national team?  The talent is here in the US, they just don't play soccer. 

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2 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I was thinking about this the other day, our best athletes make far more money playing sports other then soccer.  Soccer may never catch up, but man would it be cool to see someone like Antonio Brown or Tyreek Hill playing for the men's national team?  The talent is here in the US, they just don't play soccer. 

The big problem with men's soccer is for boys I'm not even sure it is #5 where I live.  I'm not sure the top 5 sports aren't: football, baseball, basketball, hockey (ice and street combined because a lot of people play both), and lacrosse.

 

And I guarantee you in some parts of the country wrestling is in there too.


Now partly, that's tied to the lack of money in playing the sport in the US.

 

(As compared to girls, it is either #1 or #2 (behind softball).  My daughter is 12.  I know girls that have already left soccer for field hockey and lacrosse because they feel they have a better shot at playing on those teams in high school.)

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17 hours ago, FanboyOf91 said:

All 5'7.

What separates these three from most of the soccer world is because of what goes on above the red line: they see and understand. Any PHYSICAL attributes are just icing on the cake.  

Q3QfM8S.png

10 hours ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I was thinking about this the other day, our best athletes make far more money playing sports other then soccer.  Soccer may never catch up, but man would it be cool to see someone like Antonio Brown or Tyreek Hill playing for the men's national team?  The talent is here in the US, they just don't play soccer. 

How many world cups have african nations won? 

16 hours ago, FanboyOf91 said:

If US Soccer appoints Allardyce, I will boycott the USMNT. Watching that graceless fool coach Pulisic would be a disgrace.

It's the wet dream of every soccer stat geek who loves talking about Xg and stacking—Big Sam LOVES data driven methods to set his strategy and lineups. It's like Bora Milutinovic 3.0

 

But I also seen that Laurent Blanc is interested

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12 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

First, it is a stupid point.  You are taking the extremely rare exceptions and holding them up as some sort of norm, which isn't realistic. 

 

Garrincha 5'6

George Best 5'9

Gerd Muller 5'9

Maradona 5'5

Alexis Sanchez 5'6

Luka Modric 5'9

Ribery 5'7

Wesley Sneijder 5'7

Philipp Lahm 5'7

David Silva 5'8

Marcelo 5'9

Aguero 5'8

Verrati 5'5

Kante 5'6

Neymar 5'9

Carlos Tevez 5'8

Chicharito 5'9

Hazard 5'8

Nigel de Jong 5'9

Isco 5'9

 

Not rare at all. Good soccer cultures long ago figured out about the size of the fight in the dog vs. the size of the dog in the fight.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

What separates these three from most of the soccer world is because of what goes on above the red line: they see and understand. Any PHYSICAL attributes are just icing on the cake.  

 

 

I remember reading somewhere that Messi was usually, over the course of a 90-minute match, one of the slowest players on the pitch.

 

#D10S

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15 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

First, it is a stupid point.  You are taking the extremely rare exceptions and holding them up as some sort of norm, which isn't realistic.  However, IT is listed at 5-9, but he even admits to being 5-8.  A whole inch taller.  Sproles is 5-6 so even shorter.  Messi left Argentina at 13 to move to Barcelona because they would pay for his HGH treatments.  How many Americans do you think would leave the US to go to Spain to get HGH treatments?  The MLS isn't going pay for it.

 

The fact of the matter is that soccer is more organized and coaches more trained on the extreme local levels than any other sport I've been involved in or heard of other people being involved in and we still struggle (on the men's side).  The difference is in the other countries is that kids grow up thinking primarily about soccer and that soccer is a major sport in those countries and as a result a major revenue generator and also then a realistic way to make a very good living in those countries.

Now that the "rare exceptions" argument has been debunked. Something hypocritical about mentioning a journeyman running back while criticizing something about rare exceptions. 

 

Don't let the women's side fool you. We are just a more athletic nation but the gap is rapidly closing—and we don't actually play good soccer on the women's side. We actually probably do a **** job developing athletes in other sports but can't be called on the carpet because we have a huge headstart (basketball) or no one else competes in it (baseball, football).

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14 hours ago, PeterMP said:

The fact of the matter is that soccer is more organized and coaches more trained on the extreme local levels than any other sport I've been involved in or heard of other people being involved in and we still struggle (on the men's side).  The difference is in the other countries is that kids grow up thinking primarily about soccer and that soccer is a major sport in those countries and as a result a major revenue generator and also then a realistic way to make a very good living in those countries.

 

 

Spot on, it's a culture thing and it cant be fixed as easily as everyone might think. 

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Japan doesn't have a soccer culture and in a shorter span of time they've put more and better pros in the top european leagues. The "culture" argument is soft reason that gets peddled. 

 

England, Scotland have a soccer culture and they're barely better and not better than the US. Tons of very athletic kids in Jamaica play street soccer everyday but it doesn't move the needle. Iceland is small, doesn't have a soccer culture until very recently seems to be getting it done. 

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59 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

Japan doesn't have a soccer culture and in a shorter span of time they've put more and better pros in the top european leagues. The "culture" argument is soft reason that gets peddled. 

 

England, Scotland have a soccer culture and they're barely better and not better than the US. Tons of very athletic kids in Jamaica play street soccer everyday but it doesn't move the needle. Iceland is small, doesn't have a soccer culture until very recently seems to be getting it done. 

its a lie we tell ourselves to make us feel good about being also-rans in soccer.

 

Japan started their league a few years before the US did and yet actually play technically sound soccer. The Korean League only 11 years earlier. 

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52 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

Japan doesn't have a soccer culture and in a shorter span of time they've put more and better pros in the top european leagues. The "culture" argument is soft reason that gets peddled. 

 

England, Scotland have a soccer culture and they're barely better and not better than the US. Tons of very athletic kids in Jamaica play street soccer everyday but it doesn't move the needle. Iceland is small, doesn't have a soccer culture until very recently seems to be getting it done. 

4

The culture I'm talking about is the athlete's path to the pros in the US is different than those countries you mentioned and many others around the world.

 

You gotta get the most talented prospects into the club youth system between 11-13 and cultivate that talent to find out if they are MLS'rs or can they be shipped off to Europe at 16 or 17 years old to further develop.

 

Dempsey is a great example of a player who had years of quality football taken from him because he went to college and we didn't realize his level of talent until after he left Furman and played in the MLS.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

its a lie we tell ourselves to make us feel good about being also-rans in soccer.

 

Japan started their league a few years before the US did and yet actually play technically sound soccer. The Korean League only 11 years earlier. 

The US has made it out fo the group stage more than Japan has in the last 4 world Cups, who gives a **** what their domestic league does or how great their players are perceived if they cant perform at the international level.

 

The facts are a wiki away, the US is a better world cup team than Japan or Korea and has been for several cycles.

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Just now, jschuck12001 said:

The US has made it out fo the group stage more than Japan has in the last 4 world Cups, who gives a **** what their domestic league does or how great their players are perceived if they cant perform at the international level.

 

The facts are a wiki away, the US is a better world cup team than Japan or Korea and has been for several cycles.

and Korea made a world cup semifinal. (albeit, dodgy)

 

Japan and Korea have produced players that could play for Inter Milan, United, Bayern, etc. We are currently pinning our hopes on a 19 year old.

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7 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

its a lie we tell ourselves to make us feel good about being also-rans in soccer.

 

Japan started their league a few years before the US did and yet actually play technically sound soccer. The Korean League only 11 years earlier. 

That's really it. Yes, we have to reach the under-represented parts of America. Yes, lets make strong, deliberate strides toward that. But in the meantime, teach your player pool how to play soccer better. Clint couldn't progress past Spurs (before they were good) and didn't last a year. Donovan played short stints at Everton and Bayern but didn't last long. Those are our two best field players of the past generation. Sad to say that if we even had 15 field players of their caliber it'd be a different story. 

6 minutes ago, jschuck12001 said:

The US has made it out fo the group stage more than Japan has in the last 4 world Cups, who gives a **** what their domestic league does or how great their players are perceived if they cant perform at the international level.

 

The facts are a wiki away, the US is a better world cup team than Japan or Korea and has been for several cycles.

You should care. Their guys are the guys the clubs want. Our guys not so much. 

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Just now, BenningRoadSkin said:

and Korea made a world cup semifinal. (albeit, dodgy)

 

Japan and Korea have produced players that could play for Inter Milan, United, Bayern, etc. We are currently pinning our hopes on a 19 year old.

I think the big teams are overrated, yes it would be great to have some US players on those teams and we have in the past but big teams are a place where young players go to die.

 

Deep teams full of top-shelf talent, good luck getting playing time unless your Messi or some other prodigy.  

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16 minutes ago, jschuck12001 said:

You gotta get the most talented prospects into the club youth system between 11-13 and cultivate that talent to find out if they are MLS'rs or can they be shipped off to Europe at 16 or 17 years old to further develop.

 

 

Explain how that is different to what is happening for the past ten years?

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2 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

Explain how that is different to what is happening for the past ten years?

 

Youth soccer seems to have consolidated into regional super teams so the footprint is not as broad as it could be.  I think you miss talent or late bloomers because those teams will only carry rosters of 23 players and there might be 50 in that area who could develop.  

 

I'm not sure what we are doing now is 100% wrong but I think soccer gets the leftovers so you have to have transparency on all the talent not just the rich kids whose parents can move to another state to play for the Clearwater Chargers.

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Elessar78 said:

Now that the "rare exceptions" argument has been debunked. Something hypocritical about mentioning a journeyman running back while criticizing something about rare exceptions. 

 

Don't let the women's side fool you. We are just a more athletic nation but the gap is rapidly closing—and we don't actually play good soccer on the women's side. We actually probably do a **** job developing athletes in other sports but can't be called on the carpet because we have a huge headstart (basketball) or no one else competes in it (baseball, football).

 

You are still talking about the best sub-6 foot athletes from the majority of the non-US world up as your example especially when you start listing people from different eras (e.g. Maradona).  You are still talking about the rare exception (especially in the context of the US vs. the world because the average American male is taller than much of the rest of the world).

 

Baseball is very popular among many of the same countries in our qualifying pool, has a strong positive economic incentive to do well, and while the best of the best do well playing here, nobody really doubts that top to bottom the US would put together a better team.

 

Other countries are going to close the gap on the women's side because they are putting a lot of resources into it, but unless some other sports come around that supplant soccer from the near the top of the female sports ladder, we aren't going to have issues qualifying for a World Cup.

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Ok. England has a similar white guys and black guys. Heir best white guys and black guys play soccer. Home come they aren’t closer to winning the World Cup? They have first pick of best athletes, they have a history and culture, they have infrastructure. What’s holding them back?

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Oh for Christ's sake:

 

Raheem Sterling, 5'7

Antoine Griezmann, 5'9

Andres Guardado, 5'7

Philippe Coutinho, 5'7

Naby Keita, 5'8

Lorenzo Insigne, 5'4

Dries Martens, 5'7

Hugo Sanchez, 5'9

Emilio Butragueño, 5'6

Ferenc Puskas, 5'8

Eusebio, 5'9

Didier Deschamps, 5'7

Alessandro del Piero, 5'9

Roberto Baggio, 5'9

Pele, 5'8

 

Small players develop all the time because their lower center of gravity allows them to pivot quicker and tighter than a taller defender can compensate. They are only 'rare' in America because our coaches have inherited the English obsession for pace, power, and size. If Pulisic had stayed in the United States, he would either be playing college soccer (career death) or wasting away on Philadelphia Union's reserve side in USL.

 

 

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, Elessar78 said:

Ok. England has a similar white guys and black guys. Heir best white guys and black guys play soccer. Home come they aren’t closer to winning the World Cup? They have first pick of best athletes, they have a history and culture, they have infrastructure. What’s holding them back?

They cant win when they get to penalty kicks.

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1 hour ago, Elessar78 said:

Ok. England has a similar white guys and black guys. Heir best white guys and black guys play soccer. Home come they aren’t closer to winning the World Cup? They have first pick of best athletes, they have a history and culture, they have infrastructure. What’s holding them back?

I do not know.  I dont know much about the sport scene in england.

 

But i have to run my daughter to goalie training where even though there are actually more boys teams in the age range, U13 and up, there will be like 7 girls, including 2 from my daughters team alone, and one boy because most of the other boys are also doing other sports and cannot take another night to devote to soccer practice.

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Nice big sample size for your anecdotal reason.

42 minutes ago, jschuck12001 said:

They cant win when they get to penalty kicks.

How many English players out of total play in the top ten teams of the ENGLISH premier league. How many Spaniards, Italians, Germans, Brazilians, Argentines, and French play for the top teams in their respective domestic league?

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1 hour ago, Elessar78 said:

Ok. England has a similar white guys and black guys. Heir best white guys and black guys play soccer. Home come they aren’t closer to winning the World Cup? They have first pick of best athletes, they have a history and culture, they have infrastructure. What’s holding them back?

 

England is the Washington Caps/Nats of the soccer world.

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