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God you guys have fallen off a cliff and then some huh? 

 

From WC QF's and perennial knock-out's  to now be trailing such 'luminaries' as the 'might' of Costa Rica and Panama after 8 group games ..... Seriously, WTF is going on with THAT shambolic carnage?  

 

I've literally never heard of any Costa Rican's outside of the WC Keylar Navas, the tidy but little else Bryan Ruiz, and the woeful ex-Evertonian Bryan Ruiz. The latter two who have never been able to cut it in a top league. Panama, I honestly couldn't name one. And as for Honduras, I've never even heard of anyone in their entire frigging history outside the lad that was at DCU a few years ago! And that's only down to having a passing interest in them. And that would be pretty much the same for most anyone outside the CONCACAF region I'd confidently wager. 

 

But then you look at the US roster, and although there's more well-known names from their time in Europe, it's massively bereft of any real quality outside of an 18-year-old an entire Nations hopes are pinned on (EIGHTEEN! Hope he's got broad shoulders to carry y'all), a couple of promising youngsters, and the two experienced vets. who have been decent quality Howard and Dempsey now at the very backend/ downside of their career. And it's even worse on a coaching level when your only answer after Klinsmann is to turn to Bruce Arena with the archaic Bob frigging Bradley also mooted at the time. 

 

I don't think many would disagree that's it's WELL before time the USSF ripped everything up and started SERIOUSLY working with, and not against, MLS (I know. Money dictates that won't ever happen), and put in place the proper infrastructure and be committed to it over the long haul to drag American soccer up again. 

 

Even if that came at the expense of missing out on a WC or two. Because right now, this group would be in danger of being highly embarrassed in Russia when they're struggling to get out of the CONCACAF hex which they should only realistically be fearing Mexico as a challenger. 

 

Long term development over short term gratification. Or else you'll forever continue to be the Worlds last great, completely untapped, going nowhere, football Nation. 

 

Hail. 

 

 

Edited by Gibbs Hog Heaven
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2 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

God you guys have fallen off a cliff and then some huh? 

 

Long term development over short term gratification. Or else you'll forever continue to be the Worlds last great, completely untapped, going nowhere, football Nation. 

 

Hail. 

 

 

 

Go back in THIS very thread a couple of years back during the Copa America... I made THIS very point, big bro.

 

They should've been playing the kids this whole time.  That was on Klinsmann.  Now we have a lot of raw, unseasoned meat we're trying to cook and while it might fill you up sometimes it tastes like ass.

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On 6/6/2016 at 4:10 PM, DC9 said:

 

They're also older, brother.  But Dempsey's best days are behind him as are Bradley's. 

 

But I think where we've failed with the USMNT is we haven't groomed players ourselves. 

 

Guys like Hamid, Kitchen... they should've gotten much more time in friendlies.  But we trotted out Bradley and Nick Rimando. 

 

We're very short-sited as a country with our soccer program.

 

And I don't think that's just Klinsmann, cause it was going on long before him.  Maybe Arenas was the last one who experimented.

 

On 6/6/2016 at 4:32 PM, DC9 said:

In my opinion, this is the 11 I'd go with for this tourney, assuming we had full health:

 

Hamid

 

Yedlin - Brooks - Birnbuam - Johnson

 

Kitchen - Nagbe

 

Gil - Pulisic - Zardes

 

 Morris

 

Sure... they probably get shredded.  But they get experience.  At some point we need to zero out. 

 

It's not like the players we're holding onto have won anything.  I was hoping to see some of this.  If you want a youth movement you need to eventually play the youth and let them grow together.  I don't think it'll stunt them at all if they get bombed out of a tourney we're probably going to get bombed out of anyways. 

 

I actually love Jermaine Jones and I still like Dempsey, so you could have them off the bench, but start the youth for crying out loud.  

 

 

And for God's sake get Bradley away from this program.

 

Not the best 11, but the foreshadowing from the Copa team selection is rearing it's ugly head.  The older players are older, the younger players are inexperienced...

 

We ****ed ourselves...

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I don't think its about the kids... my understanding is that US Soccer doesn't have the relegation structure of soccer elsewhere, so there is less incentive for non-MLS and even MLS teams to spend money to move up or avoid relegation.

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1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

The US player pool just isn't good. Arena and Klinsmann weren't/aren't good coaches but they were hampered by poor midfielder, goalkeeper, and central defender pool.

 

That's fair to say, sort of.

 

Miazga and Birnbaum RARELY if ever got minutes under Klinsmann.  While dudes like Timmy Chandler were contributing to us dropping early points in the hex just because they played in Bundesliga.

 

It was very easy to see what Klinsmann was doing.

 

To an extent Arena did the same thing in the Gold Cup this year playing vets against Mexico's predominantly B/C-team. 

 

We've lost out on developing players for the last 5 years or so because of Klinsmann wanting to play the vets... who have won nothing.

 

So yes, we don't have a pool to choose from but a lot of that is because we haven't done a good enough job helping ourselves to make one.

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I've just resigned myself to the fact that the US will never be a soccer power.  Occasionally, we'll field a top 20 team in the world and push towards a top 10, but we cannot compete with other countries who make soccer their #1 priority and have about 100 years head start with their leagues and talent.  Think about it.  The NASL was the first major soccer league in this country and it only lasted from 1968 to 1984, even with bringing top stars in.  MLS has been the steadiest league since then and now, I think they are getting too big.  Already up to, what, 24 teams and they want to get to 28?  They should have stayed at 20 and built it up slower. I root for us every chance I get, but there are really no big expectations from me other then an occasional upset.

Edited by pjfootballer
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55 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

That's fair to say, sort of.

 

Miazga and Birnbaum RARELY if ever got minutes under Klinsmann.  While dudes like Timmy Chandler were contributing to us dropping early points in the hex just because they played in Bundesliga.

 

It was very easy to see what Klinsmann was doing.

 

To an extent Arena did the same thing in the Gold Cup this year playing vets against Mexico's predominantly B/C-team. 

 

We've lost out on developing players for the last 5 years or so because of Klinsmann wanting to play the vets... who have won nothing.

 

So yes, we don't have a pool to choose from but a lot of that is because we haven't done a good enough job helping ourselves to make one.

man, Miazga barely play for his club team and Birnbaum is on one of the worst teams in MLS. I dont disagree with you about Chandler getting caps, but the pool aint strong. It hasnt been strong for some time.

40 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

One commentator said, perhaps MLS has benefitted the other CONCACAAF teams, because their talent comes here.

 

 

that is actually a good point

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6 hours ago, Gibbs Hog Heaven said:

God you guys have fallen off a cliff and then some huh? 

Long term development over short term gratification. Or else you'll forever continue to be the Worlds last great, completely untapped, going nowhere, football Nation. 

So many things going on.  Klinnsman was 100% right about the development of US Soccer, as in, we start way too late with very poor coaching.  But the other side of the sword is that (1) we need instant gratification from the US Team to keep it rolling and (2) there is not a pot of gold at the end of the training window for most kids.  

 

A quick numbers comparison of the MLS and EPL.

 

Seattle Sounders are roughly 1/2 foreign born. The American half features a great many older players. So much for the development of US players.  

 

A quick look at Man U's roster shows just 9 English players.  I assume other EPL teams are following a similar path.  Not much pot of gold for English players either, and just look at the English National Team.  Honestly, not worlds better than the US.

 

My point being, when your home league, no matter the level of play, is not catering to the development of young homegrown players, the national team is doomed.

 

Lastly, the MLS is inferior, we can all admit it. However it is intrinsically tied to the USMNT.  The long term development you speak about would be to dismiss the the older MLS players and focus completely on the younger ones and the internationals. Won't happen, that is the short term gratification of which you speak.

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41 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

So many things going on.  Klinnsman was 100% right about the development of US Soccer, as in, we start way too late with very poor coaching.  But the other side of the sword is that (1) we need instant gratification from the US Team to keep it rolling and (2) there is not a pot of gold at the end of the training window for most kids.  

 

A quick numbers comparison of the MLS and EPL.

 

Seattle Sounders are roughly 1/2 foreign born. The American half features a great many older players. So much for the development of US players.  

 

A quick look at Man U's roster shows just 9 English players.  I assume other EPL teams are following a similar path.  Not much pot of gold for English players either, and just look at the English National Team.  Honestly, not worlds better than the US.

 

My point being, when your home league, no matter the level of play, is not catering to the development of young homegrown players, the national team is doomed.

 

Lastly, the MLS is inferior, we can all admit it. However it is intrinsically tied to the USMNT.  The long term development you speak about would be to dismiss the the older MLS players and focus completely on the younger ones and the internationals. Won't happen, that is the short term gratification of which you speak.

this is pro sports, not a charity.

 

The problem with development is not the Premier League or MLS problem. They are selling a product.

 

The problem is always in how we approach development in this country. Same is true in England.

 

Over half of the Bundesliga is foreign born/non-German players, yet they still have a conveyor belt of talent. 

 

The coaching at youth levels is the problem. 

 

Along with widening our talent scope. But since the US program is dependent on affluent families, you get this type of player pool that is limited. Its a joke, but this is how its going to always be in this country until someone actually wants to see a real change.

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3 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

this is pro sports, not a charity.

 

The problem with development is not the Premier League or MLS problem. They are selling a product.

 

The problem is always in how we approach development in this country. Same is true in England.

 

Over half of the Bundesliga is foreign born/non-German players, yet they still have a conveyor belt of talent. 

 

The coaching at youth levels is the problem. 

 

Along with widening our talent scope. But since the US program is dependent on affluent families, you get this type of player pool that is limited. Its a joke, but this is how its going to always be in this country until someone actually wants to see a real change.

Most of what you say is spot on.  However, unlike our other professional leagues, in soccer, here and abroad, it is incumbent on the professional leagues to develop homegrown talent.  It's an industry in South America.  Becoming less so in England.  

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Just now, TimmySmith said:

Most of what you say is spot on.  However, unlike our other professional leagues, in soccer, here and abroad, it is incumbent on the professional leagues to develop homegrown talent.  It's an industry in South America.  Becoming less so in England.  

it is not incumbent on professional leagues to develop talent. It is incumbent on youth coaches. We have to stop thinking the MLS will fix things. They want to be a big league in this hemisphere, not be a league that is beholden to the US Soccer Federation. (And I have a lot of issues with MLS as well. Mainly their passive attempts at youth academies)

 

This isnt just a problem with soccer either. Its true in all of our sports. It just is more apparent in soccer because the sport is exclusive here and doesn't tape into a large section of this country, whereas in basketball we can make up for poor development by having more bball players than anyone else.

 

No one is really that interested in fixing the youth soccer problem in this country because it makes a lot of people a lot of money but this team will never be great at this sport until someone comes in and just rips it all up. 

 

In a perverse way, missing out on the world cup may start that process.

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1 hour ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

man, Miazga barely play for his club team and Birnbaum is on one of the worst teams in MLS. I dont disagree with you about Chandler getting caps, but the pool aint strong. It hasnt been strong for some time.

 

Birnbaum is by far the best player on a **** team (unless Hamid is fully healthy).  Miazga is a kid who got loaned out.  He's not going to get a ton of time with David Luiz and Cahill and Terry in the mix...

 

2 hours ago, Fergasun said:

One commentator said, perhaps MLS has benefitted the other CONCACAAF teams, because their talent comes here.

 

 

 

MLS is like the 10th best league in the world.  I'm not sure anyone benefits from that league except for aging European stars looking for one last pay day.

26 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

Most of what you say is spot on.  However, unlike our other professional leagues, in soccer, here and abroad, it is incumbent on the professional leagues to develop homegrown talent.  It's an industry in South America.  Becoming less so in England.  

 

Which is why there are rules in place on how many "homegrown," players you must have.  Here and in the Premier League.

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22 minutes ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

it is not incumbent on professional leagues to develop talent. It is incumbent on youth coaches. We have to stop thinking the MLS will fix things. They want to be a big league in this hemisphere, not be a league that is beholden to the US Soccer Federation. (And I have a lot of issues with MLS as well. Mainly their passive attempts at youth academies)

 

First and foremost, missing the world cup will deal a dramatic blow to the US Soccer program.  It will not fix anything.  Short term it will be a death stroke.

 

Secondly, two posts earlier you agreed that other CONCACAF nations benefitted from MLS... now you say the above?  

 

I think MLS is a joke and until they have a relegation ladder with NASL or another league they will continue to be. 

 

I do agree that we need more organization at the youth level as well as the current national team level.  Klinsmann would've been ideal to head that program so long as he didn't touch the senior team and had no say in the tactics.  He moved US Soccer further along it's way than anyone previously had in it's history.

 

Development doesn't just happen in training, though, my overall point is that we're playing Demarcus ****ing Beasley as a fullback because we didn't develop any forwards or midfielders the last 10 years so we have to play Yedlin and Johnson up there... there has been no plan to play the kids outside of a couple of friendlies the last several years.  That is unsat and that is why there is a major gap in talent between guys the age of Dempsey and guys the age of Pulisic.  That's 10 plus years worth of "Michael Bradley play here...." when we should've been giving time to dudes like Nagby and Perry Kitchen.

2 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

I've just resigned myself to the fact that the US will never be a soccer power.  Occasionally, we'll field a top 20 team in the world and push towards a top 10, but we cannot compete with other countries who make soccer their #1 priority and have about 100 years head start with their leagues and talent.  Think about it.  The NASL was the first major soccer league in this country and it only lasted from 1968 to 1984, even with bringing top stars in.  MLS has been the steadiest league since then and now, I think they are getting too big.  Already up to, what, 24 teams and they want to get to 28?  They should have stayed at 20 and built it up slower. I root for us every chance I get, but there are really no big expectations from me other then an occasional upset.

 

I disagree.  I think that in the next 20 years we're going to have a top 10 team or better.  And for one reason only, that the Premier League and Bundesliga are now shown on regular tv in the US.

 

Watch.

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3 minutes ago, DC9 said:

First and foremost, missing the world cup will deal a dramatic blow to the US Soccer program.  It will not fix anything.  Short term it will be a death stroke.

 

Secondly, two posts earlier you agreed that other CONCACAF nations benefitted from MLS... now you say the above?  

 

I think MLS is a joke and until they have a relegation ladder with NASL or another league they will continue to be. 

 

I do agree that we need more organization at the youth level as well as the current national team level.  Klinsmann would've been ideal to head that program so long as he didn't touch the senior team and had no say in the tactics.  He moved US Soccer further along it's way than anyone previously had in it's history.

 

Development doesn't just happen in training, though, my overall point is that we're playing Demarcus ****ing Beasley as a fullback because we didn't develop any forwards or midfielders the last 10 years so we have to play Yedlin and Johnson up there... there has been no plan to play the kids outside of a couple of friendlies the last several years.  That is unsat and that is why there is a major gap in talent between guys the age of Dempsey and guys the age of Pulisic.  That's 10 plus years worth of "Michael Bradley play here...." when we should've been giving time to dudes like Nagby and Perry Kitchen.

How exactly would it be a death stroke? And my theory is that the comfort of making the world cup makes people not want to take risks.

 

And yes, I agreed with CONCACAF teams improving by having their guys play in MLS. Me saying that, and saying the MLS is not a developmental league are not mutually exclusive statements. Maybe those players are better than American players? American development has sucked and MLS can now pay enough to attract foreign players. 

 

Relegation/Promotion stuff is meaningless to me. Thats not the problem with the US soccer player. Youth development is the problem.

 

I dont disagree about US younger players needing to play more, but my real point is maybe those guys arent good enough. Its not like Christian Pulisic is on the bench watching Graham Zusi play an attacking position. Its about merit and talent. I don't think the generation after Altidore and Bradley, the guys who are 24-26, right now are that good. It was found out early and a mess was made.

 

18 minutes ago, DC9 said:

Birnbaum is by far the best player on a **** team (unless Hamid is fully healthy).  Miazga is a kid who got loaned out.  He's not going to get a ton of time with David Luiz and Cahill and Terry in the mix...

I know who both are. My point is you dont give spots out to young players who barely play. There is no evidence that they can cope. There is hope, but that is it.

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14 minutes ago, DC9 said:

Which is why there are rules in place on how many "homegrown," players you must have.  Here and in the Premier League.

Those rules were more guidelines when teams were full of homegrown talent, now they are minimums. 

 

7 minutes ago, DC9 said:

I think MLS is a joke and until they have a relegation ladder with NASL or another league they will continue to be. 

Will NEVER, EVER, happen, even if it would be a revolutionary development for soccer everywhere.  Same with the Hunt Cup, open it up to more teams. Never happen.

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20 minutes ago, DC9 said:

 

I disagree.  I think that in the next 20 years we're going to have a top 10 team or better.  And for one reason only, that the Premier League and Bundesliga are now shown on regular tv in the US.

 

Watch.

 

You may be right.  You may be wrong.  No one knows.  I would love for us to be a top 10 power.  I'm not trying to poo-poo on it, but it is what it is.  The problem is, we have too much competition with other sports on TV here that are more popular.  Other countries have other sports, but we have a lot more- NFL, NHL, MLB, NBA, College football/basketball/baseball, NASCAR/Indy, etc., in addition to international sports that Americans follow like Golf, Tennis, Formula 1, etc.  Hell, I record Austrailian Rules Football on FS2 every weekend and watch their version of "footy." 

 

Soccer popularity (not played- watched on TV or in attendance) really goes through VERY high times and then goes back down to VERY low times.  When the World Cup is on and the US is in it, everyone is glued.  Other then that, I'm not sure many people know too much about the National Team and I don't hear anyone outside of this forum talking about qualifying and friendlies. I don't think MLS is getting high viewership numbers (I wouldn't have a clue, just a guess).

 

Maybe this generation will take to soccer more as football and other "contact" sports wane.  Twenty years is an ambitious goal, but I'm not sure it can be obtained.  Again, I'd love it to, but I'm not sure that is enough time. I think pulling the ultimate upset and actually winning the WC would be the only thing to "really" springboard soccer popularity here.

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5 hours ago, TimmySmith said:

So many things going on.  Klinnsman was 100% right about the development of US Soccer, as in, we start way too late with very poor coaching.  But the other side of the sword is that (1) we need instant gratification from the US Team to keep it rolling and (2) there is not a pot of gold at the end of the training window for most kids.  

 

A quick numbers comparison of the MLS and EPL.

 

Seattle Sounders are roughly 1/2 foreign born. The American half features a great many older players. So much for the development of US players.  

 

A quick look at Man U's roster shows just 9 English players.  I assume other EPL teams are following a similar path.  Not much pot of gold for English players either, and just look at the English National Team.  Honestly, not worlds better than the US.

 

My point being, when your home league, no matter the level of play, is not catering to the development of young homegrown players, the national team is doomed.

 

Lastly, the MLS is inferior, we can all admit it. However it is intrinsically tied to the USMNT.  The long term development you speak about would be to dismiss the the older MLS players and focus completely on the younger ones and the internationals. Won't happen, that is the short term gratification of which you speak.

 

Which is sound except the inherent difference is in England, it's ALL about the clubs. Always has been. Always will be. They have the premier (pun intended) top league the World over. Which with currently 4 of the top 5 Coaches in the World working here, along with more and more top World stars coming over, the quality is getting back up there to go along with the unrivalled passion and competitiveness that makes it the Worlds most watched sporting league. 

 

The US is different, as you need to build through the National team to get any sort of recognition to give credence to your own league which is, as you alluded to,  viewed as what it is outside of America. A second rate joke. Everything in American soccer is centred around the USMNT and you're neglecting that. Badly. 

 

But the English, not that I have ANY love for them at all and would rather cheer for you guys than them; are certainly doing something right at youth level being as they've just come off a summer at National level where they won the prestige U-20 World Cup ,U-19 Euros and Toulon Tournament, along with the U-21's only losing on pens the semis of the U-21 Euro's which would of given them a ridiculous 4 major trophy's this summer. 

 

Hail. 

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21 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

How exactly would it be a death stroke? And my theory is that the comfort of making the world cup makes people not want to take risks.

 

And yes, I agreed with CONCACAF teams improving by having their guys play in MLS. Me saying that, and saying the MLS is not a developmental league are not mutually exclusive statements. Maybe those players are better than American players? American development has sucked and MLS can now pay enough to attract foreign players. 

 

Relegation/Promotion stuff is meaningless to me. Thats not the problem with the US soccer player. Youth development is the problem.

 

I dont disagree about US younger players needing to play more, but my real point is maybe those guys arent good enough. Its not like Christian Pulisic is on the bench watching Graham Zusi play an attacking position. Its about merit and talent. I don't think the generation after Altidore and Bradley, the guys who are 24-26, right now are that good. It was found out early and a mess was made.

 

It would be AWFUL to have a generation of youngins not have the ability to watch the US play in the world cup.  That is what I mean by death stroke.  It's not like when the US lost in basketball to Argentina or whomever playing mainly college kids and then Coach K and the pros said "enough is enough,' it's the opposite... it's that the "pros," aren't good enough to get it done and the youth that we have to turn to is unseasoned because they've watched from the bench so much.

 

Simply put...How many folks only come in this thread every 4 years?  If the US aren't in the world cup, they aren't here.  The casual interest isn't here.  That means the kids of that casual interest aren't watching and we lose the dreams and aspirations of that generation.  THAT is a death stroke, sir.

 

 

21 hours ago, BenningRoadSkin said:

I know who both are. My point is you dont give spots out to young players who barely play. There is no evidence that they can cope. There is hope, but that is it.

 

You're clearly a mature thinker, have you ever developed someone in your line of work?  It's something similar to that. 

 

Friendlies vs Moldova are where you play guys like Birnbaum and Kitchen and Miazga and Bill Hamid.... we were playing Tim Howard and Brooks and Bradley and the same old same olds.  Why?  Because we wanted to get them "reps," together for the next cup competition. 

 

I struggle to see how you say the problem is youth development but you don't see how not getting the caps with the senior team is detrimental.  I agree that development and organization at the lower levels isn't on par with other countries and US Soccer is trying to sort that out now, but the bigger problem is the management of the unseasoned potential YOU HAVE at the senior level. 

20 hours ago, pjfootballer said:

 

Soccer popularity (not played- watched on TV or in attendance) really goes through VERY high times and then goes back down to VERY low times.  When the World Cup is on and the US is in it, everyone is glued.  Other then that, I'm not sure many people know too much about the National Team and I don't hear anyone outside of this forum talking about qualifying and friendlies. I don't think MLS is getting high viewership numbers (I wouldn't have a clue, just a guess).

 

The Brits will poo poo on us for our knowledge, but the very reason that the premier league has so much money now a days (even more than before) is because of the NBCSN tv contract.  It is RIDICULOUS and it's because the ratings are through the roof (especially in the DC area.... we're number 1 in the country). (six years and about $1 billion for the rights to show the Premier League - https://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/11/sports/soccer/nbc-retains-rights-to-premier-league-in-six-year-deal.html?mcubz=0)

 

The ability to watch proper footy with world class players and famous and big clubs makes all the difference in the world. 

 

It's obviously just a theory, but I think it's a worthwhile one.

 

Look at the effect of basketball and American football on other countries the last several years.  Two Germans have been drafted into the NFL.  100s of Euros have gone to the NBA.  It takes some time but it'll help us.

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20 hours ago, TimmySmith said:

Those rules were more guidelines when teams were full of homegrown talent, now they are minimums. 

 

Will NEVER, EVER, happen, even if it would be a revolutionary development for soccer everywhere.  Same with the Hunt Cup, open it up to more teams. Never happen.

 

You have to have a certain amount of players in the premier league, I think it's 17 of your 52 or something like that.  Is that crap because teams like City are never going to have more than one Brit play in their 11?  Sure, but it's still there.

 

I'm not sure the MLS rules, I'll get more into that next year when DC United open their new stadium.

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