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Some More Cops Who Need to Be Fired


Dan T.
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Just now, Larry said:

 

Really?  

 

If a jury won't convict a cop who is on video killing an unarmed, handcuffed, and laying on the ground, then people aren't justified in protesting that verdict?  

 

I'm sure glad that, after juries refused to convict Klansmen for murdering people, people kept protesting anyway.  

 

Note:  I'm not defending Maxine Waters.  (I'll admit, I don't even know what she supposedly said.  And as a general matter my opinion of her isn't much different from Trump's.)  What I'm pointing out is that encouraging protests against injustice, and encouraging protests against justice, aren't equal.  

 

When I'm deciding whether to condemn a protest, then it is perfectly legitimate to factor the cause into the judgement.  

 

How do you get that out of what I posted?? LOL  I was simply making the point that Maxine Waters should not have put herself in a position to be blamed for any potential violence had they come back with a not-guilty verdict. Of course protest would be not only justified but vital. 

 

But violence is never the right answer. When she said we need to become more confrontational that is inciting violence. Protest is necessary and I would expect that to continue. But had there been violence she put herself in a bad position - even if she was right in her overall point. 

 

I am done here. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I watched the presser with Ben Crump & the family.  They were supposed to be able to view the bodycam footage at 11:30, but have been held off because the police have to redact things. 

Something is seriously wrong with this situation.

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49 minutes ago, Llevron said:

I want it to be my imagination but it feels like all the worst occurrences in our society are accelerating in their frequency. 


The amount we are seeing on video sure is.  The end result of all the bodycam/phone footage were gonna be swamped with will surely be positive for future generations...but, actually living through it is gonna be very unsettling.

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43 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

 

Care to elaborate? I am glad to have the discussion. 

 

In short, when peaceful demonstrations fail, violence is due.

 

In a little longer explanation, I’ve said before that if officials continually fail to address injustices or allow abuses to go unanswered, then burning it all down is the only outlet left.  And when those injustices often include violence in a community, then reminding those in power that they are not the only ones capable of violence sends a powerful, and often much needed, message.  Violence can sometimes be the only message those in power understand.  

 

Looking throughout history and seeing how many times violence has been used to drive needed change, do you think those changes would have happened without the violence?

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54 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

In short, when peaceful demonstrations fail, violence is due.

 

In a little longer explanation, I’ve said before that if officials continually fail to address injustices or allow abuses to go unanswered, then burning it all down is the only outlet left.  And when those injustices often include violence in a community, then reminding those in power that they are not the only ones capable of violence sends a powerful, and often much needed, message.  Violence can sometimes be the only message those in power understand.  

 

Looking throughout history and seeing how many times violence has been used to drive needed change, do you think those changes would have happened without the violence?

 

While we I appreciate your response, I fundamentally disagree. For example, what changed from people burning down the Wendy's here in Atl after Rashard Brookes was shot and killed? And the violence in other cities and areas has only galvanized people against the protestors allowing the two groups of people mixed together. And did things change because of the violence or in spite of the violence? Can you draw a straight line of causation? In the end it's ruling through fear. How long does that last? Not very. 

 

Please do not confuse my position with not understanding the frustration and feeling of helplessness to the point where you feel the only option left is violence. But that does not make it the right thing to do. Further, it's just not a step I will ever condone. 

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The next time a police jurisdiction tries to keep from having to use body cameras, think of this:

 

Study: Body-Worn Camera Research Shows Drop In Police Use Of Force

 

One of the most powerful examples of the significance of police body-worn cameras played out in a Minneapolis court room during the trial of Derek Chauvin, the former police officer convicted of murder and manslaughter in the killing of George Floyd. The video collected from the body worn cameras of the police officers involved in Floyd's arrest showed his death from a variety of angles and prosecution and defense attorneys used the video extensively as they argued the case.

 

Across the country, police departments are increasingly using body-worn cameras to better monitor what officers are doing out in the field with the hope that they will reduce the prevalence of misconduct and improve fairness in policing. Still, there's been a lot of uncertainty over whether the technology is actually helpful. In addition, local governments and police departments that have not integrated the technology as part of their policing practice often cite cost as a barrier.

 

Now, in one of the latest studies about the equipment, a team of public safety experts and world economists say body-worn cameras are both beneficial and cost effective. They outline their reasoning in a research paper released recently by the University of Chicago Crime Lab and the Council on Criminal Justice's Task Force on Policing. The report is an update of a variety of studies of body-worn cameras and it also compares the cost of the technology to the dollar value of the benefits that may come as a result.

 

Click on the link for the full article

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6 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

In the end it's ruling through fear.

 

What isn’t though?

 

Being afraid of your populace, being afraid of losing the stability that your society provides, being afraid of any number of things.  To me, it is best for the government to have a healthy fear of its people.  If they don’t, what motivates them to do the right thing?  Altruism?

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9 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

What isn’t though?

 

Being afraid of your populace, being afraid of losing the stability that your society provides, being afraid of any number of things.  To me, it is best for the government to have a healthy fear of its people.  If they don’t, what motivates them to do the right thing?  Altruism?

 

Are you saying everything you do is driven by fear? You never do anything because it's the right thing to do?  So yes, in an ideal world people would do things because it's the right thing to do. 

 

More importantly, I do not see how burning down a Wendy's because the police shot someone will provide positive change.  Or, looting and destroying a Target in Minnesota. The changes made here in Atl are much more to do with the people in charge than out of fear or intimidation. Again, I fundamentally disagree with the use of violence. 

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2 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

I strongly disagree with this statement.

 

Recall a scene from the old Mary Tyler Moore Show.  

 

Ted does something stupid on the air.  Lou rises from his desk and announces his intent to go in there and beat the crap out of Ted.  

 

Mary:  Lou, you're a grown man.  You know violence never settles anything.  

 

Lou freezes and gives her a stunned look.  

 

Mary, violence has settled:

     Every war in history
     Every Super Bowl ever played.  
     And a lot of marriages I know.  

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40 minutes ago, goskins10 said:

 

Are you saying everything you do is driven by fear? You never do anything because it's the right thing to do?  So yes, in an ideal world people would do things because it's the right thing to do. 

 

More importantly, I do not see how burning down a Wendy's because the police shot someone will provide positive change.  Or, looting and destroying a Target in Minnesota. The changes made here in Atl are much more to do with the people in charge than out of fear or intimidation. Again, I fundamentally disagree with the use of violence. 

 

You’re talking a lot about singular actions.  I’m not.  Look at bigger picture actions.  I’d guess that the majority of things (large things) are solved with violence at some point.  

 

And you are allowed to disagree with it’s use.  These are opinions, they are not “right” or “wrong”.  Only time tells the outcome.

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33 minutes ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

 

You’re talking a lot about singular actions.  I’m not.  Look at bigger picture actions.  I’d guess that the majority of things (large things) are solved with violence at some point.  

 

And you are allowed to disagree with it’s use.  These are opinions, they are not “right” or “wrong”.  Only time tells the outcome.

 

I was pointing out very recent specific examples. I can provide 100s of other examples. I just kept it to the most recent. I cannot disagree more with "the majority" of things are solved with violence. Not even sure what to do with that. 

 

For me, there is a right or wrong. For me violence is wrong. And I strongly disagree with it's use. 

 

I think we have reached the - we will have to agree to disagree - point. So I will end from my side with thanks for the discussion. We disagree, but I appreciate you being willing to have the discussion.

Edited by goskins10
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I don't like the use of violence, though I think it can lead to a solution.  That said, it generally does not on it's own provide a solution. 
 

For instance, violence can end a war, but does not necessarily solve the underlying concerns that caused the war to break out. 
 

Violence in response to police brutality or unchecked corruption and unaccountability in policing can lead more people to see that something is wrong and many are upset about it.

 

It might be less effective in gaining support however than just showing cops abusing people and the system, though that also leads to a lot of people making excuses.

 

So while I don't think violence will solve policing issues, it does help bring them to light. 

 

Perhaps it also distracts from the issue and makes people focus on the looting and burning instead of the thing they're upset over. 

 

It might spur some changes in response to calm things down, but it can also cause a backlash and scare people away who might otherwise support the cause.

 

I think we all agree it is going to happen at times, but I'm not sure whether it's an effective method of spurring on change or not. 

Edited by visionary
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@goskins10

were just seeing the start of this. In terms of solving the problem we’re probably getting close to peak awareness - we got a long ways to go. 
 

and when it’s done, there will likely be two main points that underline any and all conversations on it:

- cameras in every pocket and body cams exposed it for what it was

- it took a lot of violence to then get change to happen. 
 

and it’ll go down in the books like the 60’s. 
 

Violence is not the answer

 

 But it is an answer. 
 

it’s not going to solve anything in and of itself, but it will make the people that can solve it decide they should start trying to solve it

 

im not a fan of the violence but I realize just how long they’ve been complaining and how long it’s taken some of us (like me) to ‘get it’, and then how there’s so many that still don’t really ‘get it’... 

 

if we teach the point where significant violence is needed then the real critique should be that our political leaders have failed us. 

ps - I wish we had similar rioting to the issue mass/school shootings. Maybe if that started we’d have change 15 years from now. 

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I wish there were more conservative voices coming down on this kind of stuff.  To be honest, it would help their POV a lot more if the "small number of instances" were met with justice & accountability rather than them spending countless hours trying to pick & prod at all of these things to tell their audience why it is all okay.   

 

To me, the best argument that the system works would be:  ACCOUNTABILITY.  

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10 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

I wish there were more conservative voices coming down on this kind of stuff.  To be honest, it would help their POV a lot more if the "small number of instances" were met with justice & accountability rather than them spending countless hours trying to pick & prod at all of these things to tell their audience why it is all okay.   

 

To me, the best argument that the system works would be:  ACCOUNTABILITY.  

Well ideally the best argument that the system works would be that people wouldn't be murdered.  Accountability is a good start on the path to get there.

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While I recognize that it is a tiny slice to judge on, sometimes the back n forth here gives me a flicker of hope for the species. My view is that if we have these discussions here, others are elsewhere, and that's a good thing.

 

Vis-a-vis violence, my opinion is that violence is the only thing that ever HAS solved anything, even if it brings its attendant baggage of new problems. Is this a "good" thing? Naww, it really isn't but its sheer existence is an impetus to find other ways. This is precisely why we have courts and advocates and voting and activists and review boards and all the rest, because we are constantly looking for some effective alternative to violence. Violence should always be a last resort, but that in itself tells you that it is still an option if everything else gets stripped away. Bribe the judges and corrupt the cops and undermine the regs and hamstring the courts and deny the vote and you're right back to where we started, looking into the flames. We need to see it in through a lens of "enlightened mercenary self-interest" (an innate human trait), losing an election or a court case is still better than a riot that burns down the whole neighborhood no matter who supports what. 

 

We are all in this together, trapped on this dirty rock, unable to escape it or avoid a shared fate. We- the entire human race, the species itself- needs to learn to see itself as that collective whole. E pluribus unum. 

 

My personal fate, my existence and well-being is inextricably tied to Scotsmen and Russia and starving kids in Somalia and moms walking to Texas from Honduras. We can keep passing the buck and passing the bill off to someone else who hot potatoes that mother****er downstream as fast as they can to keep from taking the hit but somewhere, sometime, the bill always come due. Generations of bills have piled up across the globe, pollution and warfare and famine will not go away just because you NIMBY them.

 

So we face them, admit their reality and get to work or we end up dying under a stack of moldy newspapers like some crazy hoarder. 

 

Ultimately it is a question of will and purpose.

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Just one year?  I propose he spend a time in prison equivalent to the cumulative amount of time the innocent people he wrongfully helped convict spent in prison.

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37 minutes ago, China said:

Just one year?  I propose he spend a time in prison equivalent to the cumulative amount of time the innocent people he wrongfully helped convict spent in prison.


In a cell with an innocent person who was framed by the cops. 

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Check this out. Doctor from MD in hot **** cause of what he said happened to Floyd. He may be in some **** too, cause there have been some......suspicious rulings in police involved deaths during his 17 year tenure. 

 

I hope they put the screws to this mother****er. This will send a real message. 

 

 

 

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