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Some More Cops Who Need to Be Fired


Dan T.
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1 hour ago, TheGreatBuzz said:

From the body cam video, there was less than a second from the time he had a gun in his hand to the time the officer fired.  I’d like to see some people here have to decide to shoot or be shoot and you have less than a second to decide.  Cops do plenty of stuff to be outraged over, this isn’t one of them.  Let’s move along.

 

This argument is fundamentally wrong.  He didn't have a second to do decide what to do.  He had the whole time he was chasing him.  And not really just that.  He's had his whole career and training.  This wasn't some random individual that isn't supposed to have expertise in dealing with criminals with guns.  How to handle a fleeing suspect with a gun has to be part of the training and that training shouldn't result in a person trying to surrender being killed.

 

There needs to be something taught on how to handle this that doesn't end up with the kid essentially following instructions and being killed.

 

If cops across the country aren't talking about what the cop could have done differently (other than get "lucky" and make the decision to not shoot) that maybe results in this kid not being shot, then we need a whole lot more new cops.

Edited by PeterMP
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1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

For this kid, it was a death sentence.  And he didn't do anything that was clearly hostile or practice any behavior that was clearly hostile.

 

So...


wasn’t the original call for shots fired?

he ran from the police with a gun

 

i consider both of those hostile actions. 
 

I think you’re being unfair in this very specific situation. 
 

I however can think off the top of my head a few situations where what you’re saying absolutely applies. 

29 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

How to handle a fleeing suspect with a gun has to be part of the training

 

they are. This is how they deal with it. 
 

 

29 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

 that training shouldn't result in a person trying to surrender being killed.

I think that’s an overly broad requirement and thus an unfair one to police. 

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30 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

If cops across the country aren't talking about what the cop could have done differently (other than get "lucky" and make the decision to not shoot) that maybe results in this kid not being shot, then we need a whole lot more new cops.

This I think is fair. They absolutely should be constantly asking what they can do better to result in better outcome. If they did that and they had a track record of holding bad cops accountable the public would have a much different view on the whole thing. 

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8 minutes ago, tshile said:


wasn’t the original call for shots fired?

he ran from the police with a gun

 

i consider both of those hostile actions. 
 

I think you’re being unfair in this very specific situation. 
 

I however can think off the top of my head a few situations where what you’re saying absolutely applies. 

they are. This is how they deal with it. 
 

 

I think that’s an overly broad requirement and thus an unfair one to police. 

 

There's no evidence that he shot the gun (the is video of somebody else shooting the gun), and generally, incorrect calls are placed to cops.

 

A call can't be a hostile action and certainly not to a specific person.  Running isn't generally considered hostile and shooting somebody running from you (even a cop) in most cases is not considered a justified shooting.

 

If you are shooting people that are following instructions and trying to surrender, then you have a bad process.

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Just want to add that apparently the kid had gunpowder residue on his hand.  He was out there doing bad things, allegedly.

 

Also, I don’t see a suspect surrendering his weapon to police and complying.  I see a suspect running to a spot where he thought he could maybe hide the weapon...which is what he did when he tried to get slick and stash it behind the fence.  Well within reach btw if the cop had holstered his weapon and let his guard down.

 

The solution to this problem is to find a way to keep guns out of the hands of teenagers.  Full stop.

Edited by TryTheBeal!
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3 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Just want to add that apparently the kid had gunpowder residue on his hand.  He was out there doing bad things, allegedly.

 

Also, I don’t see a suspect surrendering his weapon to police and complying.  I see a suspect running to a spot where he thought he could maybe hide the weapon...which is what he did when he tried to get slick and stash it behind the fence.  Well within reach btw if the cop had holstered his weapon and let his guard down.

 

The solution to this problem is to find a way to keep guns out of the hands of teenagers.  Full stop.

 

The cop told him to stop and show him his hands.  He did.  Are you going to try to say that he wouldn't have been shot if he hadn't dropped the gun?

 

He was clearly trying to surrender and following the cop's instructions.

 

(You can get gunpowder residue on you without firing the gun.)

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9 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

No matter your age, and I find it highly unlikely the cop knew his age, if you’re rolling through the streets at 2:30 in the morning flashing your piece you are at very high risk to catch a bullet...from a wide variety of sources.

 

Heartbreaking and tragic, but to me this is a gun control issue much more than a policing issue. We are a long, long way from Breonna Taylor here.  And it’s disrespectful to her memory to suggest otherwise.

 

Yeah, I don't give a lot of weight to things like "there were reports of a gun" or "he ran".  

 

But when the suspect actually has a gun?  I tend to give the cop a whole lot more slack for split second decisions.  

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1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

 

The cop told him to stop and show him his hands.  He did.  Are you going to try to say that he wouldn't have been shot if he hadn't dropped the gun?

 

He was clearly trying to surrender and following the cop's instructions.

 

(You can get gunpowder residue on you without firing the gun.)


Why did he throw the gun behind the fence?

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9 minutes ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Just want to add that apparently the kid had gunpowder residue on his hand.  He was out there doing bad things, allegedly.

 

I don't consider that justification, either.  "He fired a gun sometime recently (we found out, after we shot him)" isn;t grounds for shooting somebody.  

 

But to me, "He had a gun, in his hand, a second ago"?  Gets the cop a lot of leeway.  

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7 hours ago, TryTheBeal! said:

Lefty Tailgate about to pretzel themselves into applauding the way law enforcement handled Kyle Rittenhouse.

There's not really anyone on here with lefty views when it comes to the police.  This site seems to be more liberal-moderate-conservative on the issue. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by visionary
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5 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

It seems popular thought is every time the cop is white and harms somebody of color, it's because they are racist.  When in reality, they could just be an a-hole, bully, poorly trained, freaked out, etc. - perhaps all the above.  An alley, middle of the night, I don't think you can really tell the difference between a latino kid or a white kid.  But I'd imagine you'd be on high alert when you see a gun, no matter the age or race of said person running away.


I think you are close to right, but I think the actual assumption or popular thought is that cops in general are biased against minorities rather they are racist or not. Hell IM biased against minorities and have to correct my thinking all the time. Same with my wife and my mother. 
 

Unconscious bias, is what I’m getting at. And I don’t think it’s wrong to assume everyone in America suffers from some form of it. I don’t see how one couldn’t, honestly. 
 

I totally think you could tell the kid was Latino in the video. I also don’t think it matters in that particular case. That was a tough situation imo. 

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2 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

This argument is fundamentally wrong.  He didn't have a second to do decide what to do.  He had the whole time he was chasing him.  And not really just that.  He's had his whole career and training.  This wasn't some random individual that isn't supposed to have expertise in dealing with criminals with guns.  How to handle a fleeing suspect with a gun has to be part of the training and that training shouldn't result in a person trying to surrender being killed.

 

There needs to be something taught on how to handle this that doesn't end up with the kid essentially following instructions and being killed.

 

If cops across the country aren't talking about what the cop could have done differently (other than get "lucky" and make the decision to not shoot) that maybe results in this kid not being shot, then we need a whole lot more new cops.


Have you ever been in a position where you had to confront someone who was likely to be armed?  Or how about someone you KNOW is armed because you saw a gun in his hand a few seconds before?  Ever been in a position to kill or be killed?

 

It’s good to always be evaluating if there is a better way.  But hindsight, Monday morning quarterbacking can be dangerous.  

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100% the cop knew the race and likely the age. They are sort of trained to specifically notice things like race, age, gender, height, weight, and clothing color. 
 

it doesn’t matter one bit in how I look at it. And sometimes cops get that info wrong. But 100% he had a skin color opinion. 

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4 minutes ago, visionary said:

 


literraly said this the other day on here. 
 

most confrontations start with traffic stops. And most people hate police because when they get pulled over they’re nervous about what will happen. Road side stops are the #1 way police die. You’re walking up on a random car and you have no idea what’s going on inside. And you’ve been trained to look inside and try to find something illegal. 
 

we need something else that rolls around without guns without vests that writes tickets for speeding and busted lights, and otherwise isnt screwing with people. 
 

the police can still investigate crimes and run warrants. Just stop patrolling around like sharks looking to get someone in trouble. 

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10 hours ago, TheGreatBuzz said:


Have you ever been in a position where you had to confront someone who was likely to be armed?  Or how about someone you KNOW is armed because you saw a gun in his hand a few seconds before?  Ever been in a position to kill or be killed?

 

It’s good to always be evaluating if there is a better way.  But hindsight, Monday morning quarterbacking can be dangerous.  

 

No, but please tell me what harm is going to come from me and others pointing out that killing an unarmed person that is essentially following directions and trying to surrender is an indication of a bad process by the cop and that there needs to be some better thought and training by cops on how to deal with this situation.  How is that dangerous?

 

I'll tell you what is dangerous (and there is along history of this by the police, military, and other fields), shutting down critics using lazy talking points like the above.  Rather than respond to the actual criticism respond attack the person making the criticism.  (And of course in history a lot of times when the police and military shut critics down with things like you've done above, the critics end up being right.)

 

Anybody that responds to criticism with well you've never done my job so you don't know instead of actually with reasons the criticism is wrong has a weak argument.

 

It isn't hard.  If your major concern when chasing a potentially armed suspect is them turning, then you should regularly communicate to them to not turn around.  It took me watching that video and a night of thinking about it to come up with that.

 

But I will tell you what is dangerous (and it isn't people pointing out this shooting indicates a flaw in the cop's process) is things like the President of the Chicago Police Union calling this cop a hero.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/548607-chicago-police-union-head-calls-adam-toledo-shooting-justified-says

 

If you're a cop, the last thing you want is for armed suspects to think that killing an armed suspect that is trying to surrender is a good out come.  That's a recipe for more shot cops.  Cops and people that support cops all over the country should be saying this was a bad out come and we need to rethink our training and process.

 

Shutting down critics with well you've never been in that situation, this isn't a big deal, and the cop didn't do anything wrong is what is dangerous.

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8 hours ago, tshile said:


literraly said this the other day on here. 
 

most confrontations start with traffic stops. And most people hate police because when they get pulled over they’re nervous about what will happen. Road side stops are the #1 way police die. You’re walking up on a random car and you have no idea what’s going on inside. And you’ve been trained to look inside and try to find something illegal. 
 

we need something else that rolls around without guns without vests that writes tickets for speeding and busted lights, and otherwise isnt screwing with people. 
 

the police can still investigate crimes and run warrants. Just stop patrolling around like sharks looking to get someone in trouble. 

Been thinking about it too. It would have to be camera/witness/mail based and not pulling people over.  

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9 hours ago, tshile said:


literraly said this the other day on here. 
 

most confrontations start with traffic stops. And most people hate police because when they get pulled over they’re nervous about what will happen. Road side stops are the #1 way police die. You’re walking up on a random car and you have no idea what’s going on inside. And you’ve been trained to look inside and try to find something illegal. 
 

we need something else that rolls around without guns without vests that writes tickets for speeding and busted lights, and otherwise isnt screwing with people. 
 

the police can still investigate crimes and run warrants. Just stop patrolling around like sharks looking to get someone in trouble. 

 

We've had this conversation sort of before in another context.  It also just makes a lot of sense in terms of the safety of cops.  Why in this day and age cops are still approaching cars in a traffic stop makes no sense and that's something I've been saying for years.

 

(Of course, I've never pulled a car over before so maybe my POV doesn't have any value and even me and people like me expressing it is dangerous.)

Edited by PeterMP
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Greensboro PD and the city council are trying to increase traffic stops atm. We have not only a shortage of officers but also funding. Their solution to decreasing violence and increase revenue is to basically shakedown citizens. What could go wrong? 😒

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1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

We've had this conversation sort of before in another context.  It also just makes a lot of sense in terms of the safety of cops.  Why in this day and age cops are still approaching cars in a traffic stop makes no sense and that's something I've been saying for years.

 

(Of course, I've never pulled a car over before so maybe my POV doesn't have any value and even me and people like me expressing it is dangerous.)

Yup. And that article says I was wrong but idk I feel like they make a living pulling people over and finding stuff but maybe that’s just because that’s what makes the local news 

 

But I also am way more in tune with the problems now than I was then. 

1 hour ago, KAOSkins said:

Been thinking about it too. It would have to be camera/witness/mail based and not pulling people over.  

That’s what everyone I’ve listened to is saying - electronic monitoring basically. 
 

which is fine. I think you can still pull people over but the context needs to be “I’m writing you a ticket for speeding and then you’re on your way”. I think it would change a lot of it. If people knew they were getting a piece of paper real quick and then off they go. No guns no vests no questions no 15 waiting for all the checks to come back. 🤷‍♂️ electronic makes more sense I guess. 

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You know honestly with the license cameras and everything else they have around here (Virginia) they could just pull up behind you, hit a button on the computer that records speed plate and location, and the ticket could be mailed to you. They could flash their lights as a “hey I got you, slow down” and then everyone could be on their way without a stop at all. 
 

I realize that’s a super basic way of dealing with a basic example. 
 

I guess the point is there are a lot of options if the cops would just say “hey there’s a problem let’s start talking about these and trying them in different places and seeing which ones work or how we can tweak things”

 

the lack of effort on their point to even acknowledge the problem is (I think) driving most of the outrage. It’s like - you’re not even trying...

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I think it is funny that people legitimately think the world would be better without police. 
 

Traffic stops occur because police are patrolling.  If you get them out of traffic stops what else do they do?  
 

The police got called out to these places anyway. 

 

It’s pretty obvious that there is a issue with the culture in policing, but saying we should just get rid of them or have firemen and “mental health experts” deal with potentially violent people is lazy.

 

Has anyone even checked to see if a fireman or counselor would be interested in doing that? I sort of doubt it.

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7 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

I think it is funny that people legitimately think the world would be better without police. 
 

Traffic stops occur because police are patrolling.  If you get them out of traffic stops what else do they do?  
 

The police got called out to these places anyway. 

 

It’s pretty obvious that there is a issue with the culture in policing, but saying we should just get rid of them or have firemen and “mental health experts” deal with potentially violent people is lazy.

 

Has anyone even checked to see if a fireman or counselor would be interested in doing that? I sort of doubt it.

 

In the first six months of health care professionals replacing police officers, no one they encountered was arrested

 

DPD Chief Pazen, who is fond of the STAR program, says it frees up officers to do their jobs: fight crime.

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1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

Anybody that responds to criticism with well you've never done my job so you don't know instead of actually with reasons the criticism is wrong has a weak argument.

I don’t think his point is to shut you down. 
 

i realize he made an earlier post with “let’s move along” but I think that’s more just his opinion whereas this is a specific thought. 
 

I think the point is to highlight that there is a perspective that gets lost because most people haven’t ever had to do it and have never even gone through the training for it. Hell - I bet most people just flat out haven’t been in a physical altercation with anyone as an adult. It’s one thing to think you know what it’s all about it’s another to actually get punched in the face and experience it and have to deal with it. 

it’s kind of like when someone (like me) starts arguing with you on economics. There’s a working set of experience and knowledge and expertise you bring to that that we don’t. 

 

(I am routinely, though I guess not anymore cause it’s a long running conversation, surprised how many questions that get asked that wouldn’t be asked if you knew the training. Like ‘why did he shoot so many times’ or just ‘why did it go that way’, hell I bet most people haven’t even heard of or understand the concept of what a felony stop is, what the roles of people are, how it gets escalated to that level, etc)

Edited by tshile
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