bubba9497 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Many expect miracles in a short period of time. But fellows it takes time to build a winner. I went back and looked up the records of some pretty famous head coaches in this league and looked at the records starting out with a pretty bad team, I think you will find a definate pattern here. Vince Lombardi Lombardi was responsible for turning the losing Packers (they only won one game the season before Lombardi became coach) into a championship team in just three years. When he was OC with the Giants (Tom Laundry was DC) the year before they arrived, the Giants suffered with a 3-9 record and scored the least number of points in the league. Within three years of Vince's arrival, however, the Giants were a championship team. Though Lombardi didn't have losing records his first two years they weren't great it was the third year in GB for him to have a championship year team. W L T Postseason 1959 gnb | 7 5 0 | 0 0 | 1960 gnb | 8 4 0 | 0 1 | 1961 gnb | 11 3 0 | 1 0 | Tom Landry 1960 dal | 0 11 1 | 0 0 | 1961 dal | 4 9 1 | 0 0 | 1962 dal | 5 8 1 | 0 0 | 1963 dal | 4 10 0 | 0 0 | 1964 dal | 5 8 1 | 0 0 | 1965 dal | 7 7 0 | 0 0 | 1966 dal | 10 3 1 | 0 1 | Mike Ditka 1982 chi | 3 6 0 | 0 0 | 1983 chi | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | 1984 chi | 10 6 0 | 1 1 | 1985 chi | 15 1 0 | 3 0 | Bud Grant 1967 min | 3 8 3 | 0 0 | 1968 min | 8 6 0 | 0 2 | 1969 min | 12 2 0 | 2 1 | Jimmy Johnson 1989 dal | 1 15 0 | 0 0 | 1990 dal | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | 1991 dal | 11 5 0 | 1 1 | Marv Levy 1986 buf | 2 5 0 | 0 0 | 1987 buf | 7 8 0 | 0 0 | 1988 buf | 12 4 0 | 1 1 | Chuck Knoll 1969 pit | 1 13 0 | 0 0 | 1970 pit | 5 9 0 | 0 0 | 1971 pit | 6 8 0 | 0 0 | 1972 pit | 11 3 0 | 1 1 | Bill Parcells 1983 nyg | 3 12 1 | 0 0 | 1984 nyg | 9 7 0 | 1 1 | 1985 nyg | 10 6 0 | 1 1 | 1986 nyg | 14 2 0 | 3 0 | Hank Stram 1960 dtx | 8 6 0 | 0 0 | 1961 dtx | 6 8 0 | 0 0 | 1962 dtx | 11 3 0 | 1 0 | Bill Walsh 1979 sfo | 2 14 0 | 0 0 | 1980 sfo | 6 10 0 | 0 0 | 1981 sfo | 13 3 0 | 3 0 | Dick Vermeil 1976 phi | 4 10 0 | 0 0 | 1977 phi | 5 9 0 | 0 0 | 1978 phi | 9 7 0 | 0 1 | 1979 phi | 11 5 0 | 1 1 | 1997 ram | 5 11 0 | 0 0 | 1998 ram | 4 12 0 | 0 0 | 1999 ram | 13 3 0 | 3 0 | 2001 kan | 6 10 0 | 0 0 | 2002 kan | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | 2003 kan | 8 0 0 | 0 0 | Anyone see a trend? **Joe Gibbs was the exception going 8-8 the first year to a Superbowl the next. However he took over a better team that most of these other coaches did.** Patience is all I am saying. Some of the greatest coaches in NFL history took 3 to 4 years, Laundry 7 years to build a winner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
88Comrade2000 Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I like Joe Gibbs plan: Year 1: 8-8 Year 2: 12-1- Superbowl win Year 3: 16-3- Superbowl loss Now that's a plan. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inmate running the asylum Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Good job of researching Bubba. :applause: Its nice to see someone backing up their opinions once in awhile, instead of just off the cuff opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsNorth Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 In most cases a head coach gets atleast 3yrs to implement their system, get their players, yada..yada..yada, now I just hope that Snyder has enough patience & Spurrier has enough will to stick with the 3 yr plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Potato Sack Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Can you email that to Snyder? :jk: Great stuff, bubba! That makes me feel better. If we get the defense playing hard and that O-Line pass protects better, I think we have a shot. I'm still upset with some of the moves the last week or so. I'm scratching my head. I just don't understand it. :twitch: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimmythehair Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Nice work bubba. I have said before I don't think we are that far off. Better blocking will make the offense work. And add some defense and we will be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kleese Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Here's the problem. With the exception of Vermeil in St. Louis, each of those coach's made an OBVIOUS improvement from year 1 to year 2. And my guess would be that at the midway point of their second season, none of those coach's were accusing their team of quitting and having their team look lost and in complete dissaray. Through seven games this year, we are 3-4, which is EXACTLY where we were through seven games last year. And unless we beat Dallas, we'll actually be BEHIND the pace of last year's 7-9 team which was 4-4 at one point. But it has little to do with the overall record. It has to do with HOW this team is playing, WHERE they are headed, and what kinds of STRIDES they are making. And don't forget, the coach's on that list were taking over 100% talent-less, terrible teams-- Spurrier has had more to work with. The bottom line is that we are REGRESSING. We're worse now than we were week 1, and we're NO better than we were at this point last year. That's really all that matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
endzone_dave Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 Kleese, you said it really well. After a year and a half into a three year plan, you had better see improvement. You shouldn't be leading the league in penalties and you shouldn't have your QB getting beaten to a pulp, game after game. You shouldn't be questioning your team's desire half way through a three year plan. I'm not saying we're doomed, but I'm a little nervous at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I don't know if I totally agree with you Ed. We've had a rough stretch here. But we've looked much improved and solid at times as well. I think its clear our O line has been out of synch and needs work. And we need a pressure pass rush (still). But the last several games have made us all forget about the positives this season. Last year's team could NEVER have come back from a large deficit. Not only wouldn't have, but couldn't have. I also think that the loss of Smoot and the nicking of Trung and Betts has had a major impact on us. If you go back and look at every game we've played this year, I think its undeniable we are a faster, stronger, more explosive team. I don't think anyone would argue the point through the 1st half of the Bucs game. Its been since then that we've nearly all forgotten all positives. I'm not trying to minimize our problems. We do seem in disarray, and I can't figure out what in God's name the front office is doing these days. It gives me a headache just trying. But whether this season represents a leap forward or regression, I think we're still 4 or 5 games from knowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted October 28, 2003 Author Share Posted October 28, 2003 Two of those coaches went backwards in year 2/3. The above coaches stats are the record for the year, so comparing their entire 2nd season to the first 7 games of Spurrier second season is moot. There is no record of how they progressed each game from the previous years record. But for sake of argument comparing this years Skins 3-4 with last years we have shown improvement in some key areas Kicking/ Special Teams, turnovers, margin of loses, passing offense, team speed. We have only been out played completely in 1 game. the only area we have regressed so far is defense, yet the defense wasn't as good the first part of last year either. Plus we have committed more penalties. Blocking for Ramsey is about the same from stats someone posted last week. This team has also shown a comeback ability that wasn't present last year. And we no longer have the QB - WR carousel that we had last year. Spurrier took over a slow footed team built for the run, and has replaced much of the offense, and roster over all. Saying we regressed from last year is just not true. The proof in the pudding is seeing how this team finishes this year and next to see if Spurrier is comparable to the list above. Not posted was some of these coaches actually had losing records AFTER their big win years. (Stram, Walsh, & Vermeil ). Levy had four straight losing years in Kansas City before coaching a winner at Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 We've regressed after the last game and a half... for the first 4 games, everyone was talking about how much hear this team had and how well things were going... So you have a game and a half that doesnt' quite go as planned and EVERYTHING has regressed? The season is doomed because of one and a half weeks? BS. If at the end of this season the team has not improved, that's one thing. But in today's NFL, Great teams look like **** from time to time, let alone a young team that has a ton of new players at key positions. To keep evaluating the team and making judgements after everygame is retarded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 You make an interesting and valid point bubba. However, I think it's only fair to add that many of the coaches you used to make your point coached before the advent of F.A. when teams typically stayed together much longer. Ironically, nowadays when more time is needed due to F.A. coaches only get a year or two in most cases. A couple of the names that I think should have been included were Jeff Fisher and John Gruden. It took Fisher 5 years to get the Oilers, 'er Titans to a winning season but the team showed dramatic improvement in his first full season as H.C. 1994 hou | 1 5 0 | 0 0 | | 1995 hou | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 1996 hou | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1997 ten | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1998 ten | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1999 ten | 13 3 0 | 3 1 | | 2000 ten | 13 3 0 | 0 1 | | 2001 ten | 7 9 0 | 0 0 | | 2002 ten | 11 5 0 | 1 1 | | 2003 ten | 5 2 0 | 0 0 | +----------+--------------+----------+ | TOTALS | 81 60 0 | 4 3 | Chucky OTOH was respectable from the beginning and only got better. 1998 oak | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 1999 oak | 8 8 0 | 0 0 | | 2000 oak | 12 4 0 | 1 1 | | 2001 oak | 10 6 0 | 1 1 | | 2002 tam | 12 4 0 | 3 0 | | 2003 tam | 3 3 0 | 0 0 | +----------+--------------+----------+ | TOTALS | 53 33 0 | 5 2 | Maybe there is something to what you say. Perhaps Lord Farquaad could learn a thing or two about patience and the value of continuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heavy Jumbo Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 I think the best thing about those stats is not how many games they won in their 3rd year, but how long they stuck around. Yes, actually winning games helps out alot, but staying with one team for more than a year or two does wonders (except maybe for a coach like Campo). Snyder has changed and I have a feeling that if Spurrier is gone after this season, it will be Spurrier's decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stone Cold Posted October 28, 2003 Share Posted October 28, 2003 during the offseason, there was much preaching of patience with the upcoming season (this season). the very green qb, revamped ol, very green d coordinator, were all valid concerns we had. our team is young and coached by a young staff. the pieces, for the most part, are being put into place. we knew it was going to be a roller coaster. let's sit back and enjoy what we all knew, in the offseason, was going to be a wild ride. the glass is only half empty if you're drinking it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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