Daily Beast/Vergara v. California: The Most Important Court Case You’ve Never Heard Of

[Predicto]

Quick - run to google.

 

This may be the only day in the past 5 years where the first 10 hits for "Vergara" are not links to pictures of Sophia's cleavage.

I agree with ya, but I do think Cali was shuttling teachers that could not cut it in the 'better' schools to the 'worse' ones

in effect kneecapping the handicapped

 

I think that mostly what was happening was that the current system lets good teachers leave to go to better schools.  Which means the poor schools always have massive turnover, along with the lousy teachers that no other school wants.  Brand new teachers and lousy teachers is an awful combination for learning.

[dfitzo53]

They are asking for simply competent ones,

 

the median here for HS is 56K, which ain't chicken feed 

To be fair that number has to be compared to the median income of all workers with 4+ years of college education.  I'm not saying that necessarily changes things, although I suspect it does.  Either way just tossing out a number is meaningless.

[Larry]

I think that mostly what was happening was that the current system lets good teachers leave to go to better schools.  Which means the poor schools always have massive turnover, along with the lousy teachers that no other school wants.  Brand new teachers and lousy teachers is an awful combination for learning.

Assuming that's true (and it sure seems logical, to me), what do you do about it?

How do you prevent all the best teachers from going to the school with the best students? Especially in a situation where the pay is the same in both places?

Do you FORCE teachers to go to the worst school? (Seems both a recipe for disgruntled teachers, and a recipe for how to drive the best teachers to leave your district.)

To me, part of the problem is this model we've seen being pushed, around the nation, of comparing schools, and then throwing extra money at the ones with the BEST scores. To me, it would be more logical to throw more money at the worst one. Give the worst one smaller classes, or after-school remedial programs, or bonuses to attract better teachers, or something.

[twa]

To be fair that number has to be compared to the median income of all workers with 4+ years of college education.  I'm not saying that necessarily changes things, although I suspect it does.  Either way just tossing out a number is meaningless.

 

yes,and COL ect also factor....but salary is not really the central issue here

 

if they cannot attract effective teachers it can certainly be addressed

 

 

 

Predicto, you may be mostly correct,but where are the lousy teachers(you cannot fire) from the better schools ending up?

I agree the natural order is teachers aspiring to move to the better schools

[Predicto]

To be fair that number has to be compared to the median income of all workers with 4+ years of college education.  I'm not saying that necessarily changes things, although I suspect it does.  Either way just tossing out a number is meaningless.

 

Workers with 4 plus years of college who are in the middle of their careers.   Starting salaries are lower.  

[twa]

Assuming that's true (and it sure seems logical, to me), what do you do about it?

How do you prevent all the best teachers from going to the school with the best students? Especially in a situation where the pay is the same in both places?

Do you FORCE teachers to go to the worst school? (Seems both a recipe for disgruntled teachers, and a recipe for how to drive the best teachers to leave your district.)

To me, part of the problem is this model we've seen being pushed, around the nation, of comparing schools, and then throwing extra money at the ones with the BEST scores. To me, it would be more logical to throw more money at the worst one. Give the worst one smaller classes, or after-school remedial programs, or bonuses to attract better teachers, or something.

 

smaller classes with more poor teaching isn't really changing the metrics much, teachers aides and individualized tutoring directed at sub par classes/students would be more effective

 

bonuses are good if you have effectiveness standards,but a bonus just for putting up with the monsters is not helping them

 

focusing on which students/classes are slipping and intervening pays dividends.

[Predicto]

 

 

Predicto, you may be mostly correct,but where are the lousy teachers(you cannot fire) from the better schools ending up?

I agree the natural order is teachers aspiring to move to the better schools

 

 

I think the good schools don't get the lousy teachers to begin with.  All of the new teachers go to the poor schools, where all the vacancies are.   When the principals at the good schools get a vacancy, they cherry pick the best teachers from the poor schools.  They don't have to hire noobs at all, so they don't get many duds.     

Assuming that's true (and it sure seems logical, to me), what do you do about it?

How do you prevent all the best teachers from going to the school with the best students? Especially in a situation where the pay is the same in both places?

 

 

I wish I knew.   I'd win a MacArthur grant for sure.

[Larry]

Maybe have a draft, like the NFL? 

 

Put all the teachers who want a transfer into a pile.  Principal of the worst school gets first pick. 

 

(Yes, I'm mostly joking.) 

[twa]

I think the good schools don't get the lousy teachers to begin with.  All of the new teachers go to the poor schools, where all the vacancies are.   When the principals at the good schools get a vacancy, they cherry pick the best teachers from the poor schools.  They don't have to hire noobs at all, so they don't get many duds.     

 

I wish I knew.   I'd win a MacArthur grant for sure.

 

 

Isn't that clearly discriminating at a district level?

you certainly see it choosing different districts,but that will need to be addressed thru incentives at the state level

[Larry]

Isn't that clearly discriminating at a district level?

Note: On this date, twa stated that an employer hiring the best possible applicant, for a vacancy, is discriminating.

[twa]

Note: On this date, twa stated that an employer hiring the best possible applicant, for a vacancy, is discriminating.

 

I'm very discriminating....the govt has obligations I don't 

 

I can kill the competition while smiling

[DCSaints_fan]

Maybe have a draft, like the NFL? 

 

Put all the teachers who want a transfer into a pile.  Principal of the worst school gets first pick. 

 

(Yes, I'm mostly joking.) 

 

Why not, a draft plus free agency and a salary cap.   Each school can spend at max only so much per year depending on a budget, which is the same for all schools in a distrct, and are able to independently negotiate a contract with any teacher not currenlty under contract from another school.   Should restore competitive balance to the school system.

[PokerPacker]

Why not, a draft plus free agency and a salary cap.   Each school can spend at max only so much per year depending on a budget, which is the same for all schools in a distrct, and are able to independently negotiate a contract with any teacher not currenlty under contract from another school.   Should restore competitive balance to the school system.

Woah, now, just because there's a salary cap shared by all the schools, doesn't mean they all have the same budget. You have to allow for small-market schools that aren't going to be paying to the cap.

[Kosher Ham]

If I'm a good teacher, why would I want to teach in a school that has metal detectors at the door?  I'm going to a nice area where the kids want to learn, not stab each other.

 

Parenting has everything to do with how well kids are educated.  A graduation rate of only 50% or 60% isn't an indication of bad teachers, it's an indication of bad parents.

 

Foot in the door. Get the job and strive to move forward to better circumstances.

 

Bad parents are indeed the bigger problem. Unfortunately many people will still blame the teachers.

[Fergasun]

I read the opinion. Not bad logic. On tenure he seems to point out that 3 to 5 years is more reasonable, especially since in some cases the district needs to make a decision on teachers who are not credentialed yet. LIFO may need some tweaking to enable them to let go of grossly incompetent teachers. The same with what he called "uber" due process regarding firings. The focus was on the 1-3 % grossly incompetent teachers. Which are between 3000 and 8000 in number.

Standby for some of the most important legislative tweaks you'll never hear of. Just wonder if that will satisfy the writers of this article?

[twa]

I read the opinion. Not bad logic. On tenure he seems to point out that 3 to 5 years is more reasonable, especially since in some cases the district needs to make a decision on teachers who are not credentialed yet. LIFO may need some tweaking to enable them to let go of grossly incompetent teachers. The same with what he called "uber" due process regarding firings. The focus was on the 1-3 % grossly incompetent teachers. Which are between 3000 and 8000 in number.

Standby for some of the most important legislative tweaks you'll never hear of. Just wonder if that will satisfy the writers of this article?

 

I read the opinion. Not bad logic. On tenure he seems to point out that 3 to 5 years is more reasonable, especially since in some cases the district needs to make a decision on teachers who are not credentialed yet. LIFO may need some tweaking to enable them to let go of grossly incompetent teachers. The same with what he called "uber" due process regarding firings. The focus was on the 1-3 % grossly incompetent teachers. Which are between 3000 and 8000 in number.

Standby for some of the most important legislative tweaks you'll never hear of. Just wonder if that will satisfy the writers of this article?

 

Whether it will satisfy the court is the better question.

 

eliminating the grossly incompetent is a good days work. 

[codeorama]

Weaker schools do lose teachers all the time to better school systems (better paying). My current school is a good school, however, as I've pointed out, the majority of the teachers do not appreciate that we have pretty good students. We are literally losing 7 math teachers alone to a neighboring city. The district they are going to pays much better and has fewer minorities.

Student discipline is an issue. We have a core group of of students that are always in trouble. Because of NCLB, they are hesitant to expel them, and we are limited with alternative schools. Teachers get tired of the behavior. Without my previous experience, which was much worse, I probably would be upset too. I have fewer discipline problems than many, but I still have them (maybe because I'm male?)

It all starts at home. Parents have to have control of their kids.

[codeorama]

To Larry's earlier point (sorry, for what ever reason, I can only quote on my phone), I think that one thing that you could do would be to give incentive for good teachers to go to minority schools.

 

For example, if my district offered me a 10K raise to teach at one of the 2 "bad" schools, I'd do it. Its not that money is the be all end all, but I"m a single parent and times are tough.  I am very competitive and I'd be up for the challenge while being happy to make 1K extra per month that I could save.

 

There is no downside to this that I can think of.  Veteran teachers often do not want to deal with difficult situations.  I teach World History 1, which is a 9th grade class.  I love it. I get it every year because none of the veteran teachers want to teach 9th graders.  They hate them.  They want the social studies electives like psychology or sociology, or even government, which has no SOL test.  I like the freshman.  Even though the come in as a pain, I can mold them and nothing beats the content that I teach. I get to show them parts of 300, Gladiator, the HBO Show Rome as well as videos of me playing Assassin's Creed... They love it. I love it. Its a win win.

[Larry]

For example, if my district offered me a 10K raise to teach at one of the 2 "bad" schools, I'd do it. Its not that money is the be all end all, but I"m a single parent and times are tough.  I am very competitive and I'd be up for the challenge while being happy to make 1K extra per month that I could save.

Money certainly seems to be a pretty universal way of incentivizing quality people to do a job that's less desirable. I agree, it's not necessarily the only way. but it certainly is one.

 

I teach World History 1, which is a 9th grade class.  . . . I get to show them parts of 300, Gladiator, the HBO Show Rome as well as videos of me playing Assassin's Creed...

History of the World, Part 1.

[The Sisko]

Yet you are perfectly fine deflecting from causes the judge ruled obvious ones.

I find it hard to believe you don't know the law requires it,most states do....Cali is even in the constitution.

 

EXACTLY who is going to get a worse education by this ruling and why?

You whining about someone else deflecting? Now that's rich. Hello pot, meet kettle. As for the education law, my point was that states can have laws like that on the books all they want. Clearly in many cases just having this law on the books means nothing and hasn't for some time. The one upside to this ruling is that if it stands up I could see a case for suing states for overall disparities in education resources (note that I didn't say outcomes). After all, if you're going to say that the poor and minorities are disadvantaged by having worse teachers shunted to their schools, how is having less money, worse facilities, etc. any different? I'm sure you'd be on board with that too, huh?

 

As for who's going to get a worse education and why, I guess ya missed my post #30, including me citing my sources. As the saying goes, reading is fundamental.

 

 

Great points.

I can only speak for my city, but, the minority schools have lower scores. Period. Just to use the high schools as an example: school 1 is 89% black, always has lowest overall scores, lowest AYP. ( this school however, has the most National Board certified teachers). As the percentage of white students goes up, the scores go up. The AYP goes up. We have 4 HS's. It's in order of minority population.

My current school is second "best" in terms of scores. One other school has slightly higher stats, but sometimes, my school ends up on top. The racial make up is close.

 

I am not saying black students are dumber or white students are smarter. I've had good and bad both ways, you really have to judge the individual students. However, just as a generalization based on my small experience, the white students tend to have parents with higher educations. You can clearly tell on back to school night at each school.

 

I feel so bad for so many of the students and the backgrounds they come from. It's crazy. I don't feel that our school systems are worse, society is going downhill. I mean in terms of education, which leads to money. Money is the ultimate issue. I try hard to teach my students that liking school isn't necessary. You have to get through it if you want money to get the things you want in life.

 

It's not fair to judge teachers at one school against teachers at another.

 

I would live to say that principals know which teachers are good and deserve merit raises, but that wouldn't work either. While the admin at my school is very good, others are not. I don't trust them to do the right thing.

 

Sad. I feel like we are re living the fall of Rome.

Please don't take this the wrong way because it's not directed at you personally. Whatever the reasons are for the differences in performance, we need to figure it out and fix it. Period. We don't get to just say "Well, their parents suck so, oh well" and throw up our hands. How can we get the kids to do the work and buy in even if they do have lousy parents? I suspect much of that has to do with school system policy, school culture, and local laws. I'm in favor of changing all of it. Aside from that, I think we invest way too little in early childhood education which has been shown to have some really good, positive long-term effects.

 

Additionally, I think the increasing re-segregation of our school systems is playing a big part too. Anecdotally what I've observed is that more well-off Black parents either live in areas where their kids go to very good, usually mostly White public schools, or like many others of their financial means, they send their kids to private schools. This kind of thing then concentrates the knuckleheads in certain districts and the death spiral begins/accelerates.

 

Finally regarding Larry's comments about Black kids with White parents, I'm not surprised about this at all. There are so many kids, especially non-White/older ones (don't click that if you're not prepared to have your heart broken) out there that need a good home I suspect it's a trend that will only grow. I see this as a win-win. Kids that really need a good home get one and as a society we become more racially/culturally intertwined.

[codeorama]

You whining about someone else deflecting? Now that's rich. Hello pot, meet kettle. As for the education law, my point was that states can have laws like that on the books all they want. Clearly in many cases just having this law on the books means nothing and hasn't for some time. The one upside to this ruling is that if it stands up I could see a case for suing states for overall disparities in education resources (note that I didn't say outcomes). After all, if you're going to say that the poor and minorities are disadvantaged by having worse teachers shunted to their schools, how is having less money, worse facilities, etc. any different? I'm sure you'd be on board with that too, huh?

As for who's going to get a worse education and why, I guess ya missed my post #30, including me citing my sources. As the saying goes, reading is fundamental.

Please don't take this the wrong way because it's not directed at you personally. Whatever the reasons are for the differences in performance, we need to figure it out and fix it. Period. We don't get to just say "Well, their parents suck so, oh well" and throw up our hands. How can we get the kids to do the work and buy in even if they do have lousy parents? I suspect much of that has to do with school system policy, school culture, and local laws. I'm in favor of changing all of it. Aside from that, I think we invest way too little in early childhood education which has been shown to have some really good, positive long-term effects.

Additionally, I think the increasing re-segregation of our school systems is playing a big part too. Anecdotally what I've observed is that more well-off Black parents either live in areas where their kids go to very good, usually mostly White public schools, or like many others of their financial means, they send their kids to private schools. This kind of thing then concentrates the knuckleheads in certain districts and the death spiral begins/accelerates.

Finally regarding Larry's comments about Black kids with White parents, I'm not surprised about this at all. There are so many kids, especially non-White/older ones (don't click that if you're not prepared to have your heart broken) out there that need a good home I suspect it's a trend that will only grow. I see this as a win-win. Kids that really need a good home get one and as a society we become more racially/culturally intertwined.

No worries, didn't take it personal.

For me, it's too late for most of the kids. I teach HS. I have 9th graders that barely read better than my 2nd grade son. Sad. When your parents are not educated and don't stress education, it's a losing situation. The previous school where I taught had to result to taking parents to court for truancy. Parents are literally getting arrested because their kids don't come to school enough. How can a teacher teach a kid who isn't there to be taught?

[autoidiodyssey]

I am not saying black students are dumber or white students are smarter. I've had good and bad both ways, you really have to judge the individual students. However, just as a generalization based on my small experience, the white students tend to have parents with higher educations. You can clearly tell on back to school night at each school.

I feel so bad for so many of the students and the backgrounds they come from. It's crazy. I don't feel that our school systems are worse, society is going downhill. I mean in terms of education, which leads to money. Money is the ultimate issue. I try hard to teach my students that liking school isn't necessary. You have to get through it if you want money to get the things you want in life.

It's not fair to judge teachers at one school against teachers at another.

.....

Sad. I feel like we are re living the fall of Rome.

 

I think it really has to do with the support systems the students have at home. I'd like to see a study of test scores based on family income/stability. I'd bet that majority black private schools in PG County have similar test scores to equivalent white schools. While white schools in very poor areas would have similar scores to inner city black schools. 

 

I look at the parenting job my cousin is doing. They are white and technically middle class. Mother and Father are both there. Their son is 10 and a great kid, no thanks to the parenting he is receiving. His dad works, or is gone, 70+ hours per week. His mother, my cousin, is stupid. Literally like sub 90 IQ stupid. Their son is going into 5th grade (I think) and she has not been able to help him with homework for at least 2 years because it was beyond her. She is of the opinion that the internet is not necessary. He does not need it, or need to know how to use it. They don't have internet at the house and there are no plans to get it. She was upset that I gave him a computer, didn't think that was a good thing for him to have. She and my aunt only know the internet by what they see on Dr. Phil. So they are afraid of him getting kidnapped in a chat room or some such nonsense. They have had that fear going back to before he could read!  

 

If he fails in school you can't blame the teachers. Hell up until this year she was sending him to school with no breakfast. 

 

I was listening to Bert Kreischer's podcast the other day. He is a comedian and he was interviewing Ms. Pat, a black comedienne who grew up in the Atlanta ghetto. Her story is crazy and makes you wonder what chance we have of ever breaking the cycle and helping these kids. She was one of 6 or 7 kids from a single alcoholic mother. They could only afford to eat once a day. She got pregnant at 13, by a 22 yr old, and had two kids by 15. In 8th grade she dropped out and began selling crack. She was too young to get a regular job and had a kid to feed. Eventually she was arrested for dealing and spent some time in jail. After getting out she met a guy who got her out of that life. Her children are the first kids in her family to graduate HIGH SCHOOL! 

 

How are teachers going to be able to help kids from that sort of background? 

 

 

As far as the Rome comment goes. Every Empire fails at some point. It certainly feels like we are on the way down.

[Elessar78]

There seems to be a mindset that there are thousands of good teachers out there not getting their chance because poor teachers are taking up their spots. I'll grant there must be some but just because the bad teachers are evicted there's no guarantee they will be replaced by good teachers. 

 

I think Burgold hits on some key points about incentives. One point for me is that teacher's seem too constrained here. Sorry to use a scandinavian example but Finland's school system is globally lauded. Their teachers don't have to adhere to a curriculum set by a state/local governing body. Each teacher sets his/her own curriculum. 

 

If you hire a professional, let them do the job as needed. Right now they're not being paid for their expertise necessarily. 

[Larry]

Would it be possible to make school more of a support system? Keep it open till 7 or 8. Maybe weekends, summers, and holidays. After school tutoring and activities. Serve a second meal?

I know it would cost a truckload of money. (Although I suspect that LONG TERM, it might be the best investment we've ever made. Kids spend 12 years in school, or 60 on welfare.).

And I know that some wouldn't take advantage of it. But would SOME of them?

[twa]

There seems to be a mindset that there are thousands of good teachers out there not getting their chance because poor teachers are taking up their spots. I'll grant there must be some but just because the bad teachers are evicted there's no guarantee they will be replaced by good teachers. 

 

I think Burgold hits on some key points about incentives. One point for me is that teacher's seem too constrained here. Sorry to use a scandinavian example but Finland's school system is globally lauded. Their teachers don't have to adhere to a curriculum set by a state/local governing body. Each teacher sets his/her own curriculum. 

 

If you hire a professional, let them do the job as needed. Right now they're not being paid for their expertise necessarily. 

 

 

the chance the replacement may not be better than incompetent is no excuse for not trying(which is exactly what leaving them teaches the kids)

I'm certainly fine with paying market price for teachers IF they are required to be competent.

 

 

Yusuf....states have already been sued over inequality in funding....including mine

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood_plan

 

something I supported