Roger.Staubach Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Additionally, I think the increasing re-segregation of our school systems is playing a big part too. Anecdotally what I've observed is that more well-off Black parents either live in areas where their kids go to very good, usually mostly White public schools, or like many others of their financial means, they send their kids to private schools. This kind of thing then concentrates the knuckleheads in certain districts and the death spiral begins/accelerates. This is exactly what has happened where I live. Loving, concerned, *wealthy* parents pull theirs kids from the public system and enroll them in private schools with like-minded students of equal caste. While it protects the ones fortunate enough to be able to afford public schools, it damns those that do not. Additionally, when it comes times to raise taxes to afford higher salaries for public school teachers (or to perform improvements), the ones that have their kids in private schools won't support it (because their kids are 'safe'). Death spiral is the perfect term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 This is exactly what has happened where I live. Loving, concerned, *wealthy* parents pull theirs kids from the public system and enroll them in private schools with like-minded students of equal caste. While it protects the ones fortunate enough to be able to afford public schools, it damns those that do not. Additionally, when it comes times to raise taxes to afford higher salaries for public school teachers (or to perform improvements), the ones that have their kids in private schools won't support it (because their kids are 'safe'). Death spiral is the perfect term. It happens everywhere, it is a choice my family resisted and a reason school choice or vouchers should be available to those in low performing schools. throwing money at them alone does not solve the problems though, addressing them will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger.Staubach Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 It happens everywhere, it is a choice my family resisted and a reason school choice or vouchers should be available to those in low performing schools. throwing money at them alone does not solve the problems though, addressing them will The problem is so complex that I am baffled as to how to even start to solve the problem. It feels as if we are broken as a country with no hope at salvation. It could be me being over sensitive, but it feels if racial-tensions and class-tensions have been on the rise in the last decade. It doesn't help that our politicians have no incentive to cross party lines in order to work together to help solve the problems and they, seemingly, see things in black-n-white straight down party lines. I need a drink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterMP Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 One point for me is that teacher's seem too constrained here. Sorry to use a scandinavian example but Finland's school system is globally lauded. Their teachers don't have to adhere to a curriculum set by a state/local governing body. Each teacher sets his/her own curriculum. If you hire a professional, let them do the job as needed. Right now they're not being paid for their expertise necessarily. I've never really understood this argument. Is it really outrageous to suggest that when I'm in 6th grade and my family moves from NY to MD that some of the same things should be being taught? That in order to make up a curriculum that makes sense based on what I've had that I shouldn't have to switch between 5th, 6th, and 7th grade classrooms in a single day. Take science with 5th grades, math with 6th grades, and English with 7th grades. (Note, this happened to one of my older brothers (now many many years ago), but it is the type of thing that things like the common core are designed to prevent, and my sister was in high school and ended up essentially repeating the english class she had the year before because: 1. My parents found the fight for my brother's education difficult/time consuming enough. 2. Since she was older, there was a sense of the social part of school was more important.) You know what else happens in Finland. They get 10 applicants for every 1 teaching job. They hire 10% of their applicants. The average person respects education and respects teachers, teachers make a reasonably good living (not a whole lot more when adjusted for the average income than US teachers (and I suspect that is offset by the advantage US teachers have in terms of benefits as compared to much of the populace (I know in NJ teachers have a better retirement plan than me)), but they are respected and so it is a reasonable way to make a living. That creates competitions for the jobs and that means you end up getting good/motivated people as teachers. But it starts with the respect they get from the general populace that makes people actually want to be teachers (despite they don't make a ton of money), which means a respect for the value of education by the parents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 the chance the replacement may not be better than incompetent is no excuse for not trying(which is exactly what leaving them teaches the kids) I'm certainly fine with paying market price for teachers IF they are required to be competent. Yusuf....states have already been sued over inequality in funding....including mine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hood_plan something I supported I meant to Google this when you mentioned it earlier, got busy and forgot so I'm glad you brought it up again. This looks good on the surface and in theory I'd certainly support it. However I expected some searching for loopholes to avoid it, not to mention the changes enacted in 2005. This interactive map (see funding distribution tab) seems to bear my theory out. In 2007 TX earned a C grade before it's most recent rating of an F. Aside from that, I imagine families in wealthier areas will simply pull their kids out of public schools even faster and then push for ever lower property taxes to starve a system in which they no longer have any stake and there goes the death spiral again. Just out of curiosity I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask an honest question which I hope you'll answer honestly and without a one liner or troll style response - a pipe dream I suspect, but whatever. You say you supported the Robin Hood plan. This is socialism pure and simple. How can you support such a thing given your seeming disdain for all things socialist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 Would it be possible to make school more of a support system? Keep it open till 7 or 8. Maybe weekends, summers, and holidays. After school tutoring and activities. Serve a second meal? I know it would cost a truckload of money. (Although I suspect that LONG TERM, it might be the best investment we've ever made. Kids spend 12 years in school, or 60 on welfare.). And I know that some wouldn't take advantage of it. But would SOME of them? It already is to a degree. I get paid an extra hour a day to come in an hour early to work with students that are behind. Others do it after school. Teachers are there till 5pm. Even though school ends tomorrow, we have teachers tutoring for the next month for those needing to pass SOL's and classes. We offer online coursework year round. If the fail, they can do it online. Problem is, they don't want to do it in many cases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted June 12, 2014 Author Share Posted June 12, 2014 Just out of curiosity I'm going to go out on a limb here and ask an honest question which I hope you'll answer honestly and without a one liner or troll style response - a pipe dream I suspect, but whatever. You say you supported the Robin Hood plan. This is socialism pure and simple. How can you support such a thing given your seeming disdain for all things socialist? It is not socialism for a state to be obligated for it's children's basic education, that is simply civilization, Robin Hood is not the best solution,but rather one that worked within the existing property tax school funding scheme. I would prefer basic school funding come from the state with local areas free to add a additional tax if they wish You will note I used the word basic which differs from some folks call for equal funding for all schools. as in the suit in this thread I expect competent teachers and suitable facilities, not equal That is like saying the progressive tax system is socialist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEANDWARF Posted June 12, 2014 Share Posted June 12, 2014 If I'm a good teacher, why would I want to teach in a school that has metal detectors at the door? I'm going to a nice area where the kids want to learn, not stab each other. Parenting has everything to do with how well kids are educated. A graduation rate of only 50% or 60% isn't an indication of bad teachers, it's an indication of bad parents. Back in my day, my parents and teachers use to tag team against me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dfitzo53 Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Back in my day, my parents and teachers use to tag team against me. Oftentimes we still do. I think anyone who has claimed parents used to overwhelmingly side with teachers and now overwhelming side with students is being a little silly. It's kind of like people who claim America was better off back in the 50s when we had our morals straight. I do think it's probably true that school systems and school administrations respond differently to parent complaints than they might have in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 I love that cartoon, it is so true in many cases, but as dfitzo has pointed out, its not as bad as we make it sometimes. For the most part, the vast majority of the kids that I have are great. No problems. As I've pointed out, each of my 6 classes has about 2 problem kids. Looking at those 12 total kids, non of their parents even try. I call them, I let them know what their child is doing, they say "ok, we will take care of it", nothing changes, I call again, they don't answer the phone. I have the students call in class on the speaker phone in front of the rest of the class, I put them in the hall, I finally write them up, they get suspended. Nothing happens. The parents don't care or they are scared of the kid or something. I did have a parent tell me last year that they have tried and they can't get through to their child. They literally asked me if I could scare them, cuss them out, get in their face etc... of course, I did not do that. I'd be fired, but, you have to feel for that parent. Ultimately, at this school, there is a core group of students that are like a herd of losers. We get daily emails regarding discipline and its the same "loser core". They don't pass their sol's. They fail. They have to take summer school. They miss so much school its impossible for them to pass. They disrupt class. They bully their classmates. In short, this one core group of kids do not belong in school. Period. Everyone would be better off if they were removed and put into some type of work program. Its SO sad, but its true. I had one girl this year that was scary. She had intellectual issues, but she was a bully. Her mom would make her stay in a "home" for troubled youth on the weekends because she couldn't deal with her. In my class, she forced another student to let her cheat off of her or she threatened to beat her ass. The other girl wrote me a note and slipped it to me like a cold war spy. This girl beat up a boy in another class. She would literally just start talking trash to anyone anytime, right in the middle of a lesson, lunch, what ever. Finally, 2 weeks ago, they expelled her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger.Staubach Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Ultimately, at this school, there is a core group of students that are like a herd of losers. We get daily emails regarding discipline and its the same "loser core". They don't pass their sol's. They fail. They have to take summer school. They miss so much school its impossible for them to pass. They disrupt class. They bully their classmates. In short, this one core group of kids do not belong in school. Period. Everyone would be better off if they were removed and put into some type of work program. Its SO sad, but its true. I had one girl this year that was scary. She had intellectual issues, but she was a bully. Her mom would make her stay in a "home" for troubled youth on the weekends because she couldn't deal with her. In my class, she forced another student to let her cheat off of her or she threatened to beat her ass. The other girl wrote me a note and slipped it to me like a cold war spy. This girl beat up a boy in another class. She would literally just start talking trash to anyone anytime, right in the middle of a lesson, lunch, what ever. Finally, 2 weeks ago, they expelled her. This is what we're seeing in Charleston. Attempts to break up the bad social groups have failed. Parents of the accused scream racism and, ultimately, nothing is done. The bad ones are regular users of illegal drugs (as seen frequently on their Facebook pages). Also seen on those pages are kids flashing gang signs and guns. The parents of these same kids refuse to believe that the Facebook images are anything more than kids 'messing around'. They need to bring back the paddle. (Though i'm afraid if that happened one of the students would feel so embarrassed that they might retaliate with a firearm). **I can't tell you how lucky I was to spend half of my childhood education in a Fairfax County Public School. I was truly blessed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 Roger... Sounds so similar. They don't want to accept that their kids are "bad". In fairness, there are a few parents that are doing the best they can. One parent I met with early in the year was working 3 jobs to provide for her 2 sons. What pissed me off is that neither son appreciate that she was working herself to death to give them a roof over their head and food to eat. Its sad because kids need their parents. One of the things that killed me when I got divorced was that I knew that not having 2 parents would be a disadvantage for my son. I've had to work harder but, being a teacher has made it easier for me schedule wise. I don't want my rants to seem as if there are no good parents out there. There are. In my situation now, the majority of the kids are fantastic. Clearly, I love my job. I look forward to interacting with them daily. They keep me young. My anger towards the problems are because I see them struggling when they get older and that sucks. They are going to have hard lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted June 13, 2014 Share Posted June 13, 2014 It is not socialism for a state to be obligated for it's children's basic education, that is simply civilization, Robin Hood is not the best solution,but rather one that worked within the existing property tax school funding scheme. I would prefer basic school funding come from the state with local areas free to add a additional tax if they wish You will note I used the word basic which differs from some folks call for equal funding for all schools. as in the suit in this thread I expect competent teachers and suitable facilities, not equal That is like saying the progressive tax system is socialist Based on the interactive map I linked to earlier I'd argue that it worked at the beginning, but not so much now. Ultimately I have to admit that I don't have any ideas about long-term solutions to fixing this problem though, other than maybe changing the minds of many in the GOP to think the way you and I do about the nature of education and which things are "socialist" vs. simply for the greater good of all concerned. Fat chance of that happening though. FWIW, we might differ a bit about what constitutes "basic" education but in general I don't think we're too far apart on this issue. So if two people as far apart ideologically as we are can actually find something like common ground on this, why can't others, especially our politicians? I'm pretty sure you can guess what my answer would be. Ultimately, at this school, there is a core group of students that are like a herd of losers. We get daily emails regarding discipline and its the same "loser core". They don't pass their sol's. They fail. They have to take summer school. They miss so much school its impossible for them to pass. They disrupt class. They bully their classmates. In short, this one core group of kids do not belong in school. Period. Everyone would be better off if they were removed and put into some type of work program. Its SO sad, but its true. I've thought about this for some time and it wouldn't play well with the non-PC crowd but I think it's a good idea. After giving them a few chances at redemption, I could definitely get behind shunting the knuckleheads into a comprehensive program designed to get "half a loaf" out of them. In a perfect world, I'd think such a program would teach them some very basic life skills, e.g. how to fill out a job app, do their taxes, manage a bank account, etc. along with some career counseling and training in marketable job skills so they might at least be prepared for a basic entry level job or a vocational tech program upon graduation. In fairness to the so-called knuckleheads, I think there's some compelling research that shows growing up in the types of environments many of them do causes objectively measurable changes in brain development that may have a lot to do with their behavioral and learning problems. I'd also like to see some programs designed to address those issues as well. I'm no expert on any of this stuff but what I do know is that I've had the same exact thought as you about the Rome analogy if we don't do something to fix things. Eventually the so-called job creators are going to have to face the fact that the condition of society as a whole affects them too and the hippy-dippy types on the left are going to have to accept that sometimes life is harsh and that there are some universal laws governing life success that must be obeyed and that's just the way it is. Or as my Grandmother used to tell me, "A hard head makes for a soft behind". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcsluggo Posted June 16, 2014 Share Posted June 16, 2014 I love that cartoon, it is so true in many cases, but as dfitzo has pointed out, its not as bad as we make it sometimes. For the most part, the vast majority of the kids that I have are great. No problems. As I've pointed out, each of my 6 classes has about 2 problem kids. Looking at those 12 total kids, non of their parents even try. I call them, I let them know what their child is doing, they say "ok, we will take care of it", nothing changes, I call again, they don't answer the phone. I have the students call in class on the speaker phone in front of the rest of the class, I put them in the hall, I finally write them up, they get suspended. Nothing happens. The parents don't care or they are scared of the kid or something. I did have a parent tell me last year that they have tried and they can't get through to their child. They literally asked me if I could scare them, cuss them out, get in their face etc... of course, I did not do that. I'd be fired, but, you have to feel for that parent. Ultimately, at this school, there is a core group of students that are like a herd of losers. We get daily emails regarding discipline and its the same "loser core". They don't pass their sol's. They fail. They have to take summer school. They miss so much school its impossible for them to pass. They disrupt class. They bully their classmates. In short, this one core group of kids do not belong in school. Period. Everyone would be better off if they were removed and put into some type of work program. Its SO sad, but its true. I had one girl this year that was scary. She had intellectual issues, but she was a bully. Her mom would make her stay in a "home" for troubled youth on the weekends because she couldn't deal with her. In my class, she forced another student to let her cheat off of her or she threatened to beat her ass. The other girl wrote me a note and slipped it to me like a cold war spy. This girl beat up a boy in another class. She would literally just start talking trash to anyone anytime, right in the middle of a lesson, lunch, what ever. Finally, 2 weeks ago, they expelled her. and there always were these troubled core. IN the past, we (as a society) may have just given up on them earlier? I am not sure....? but it points to the REAL difference between public school and private or charter schools. Public schools are tasked with educating EVERYBODY. the really smart kids and the really dumb kids, and all the kids in-between. THis is challenging, but no where NEAR as challenging as HAVING to keep trying with the kids that just don't care, and with the parents that just don't care. My kids are in a good school, that feeds from good neighborhoods... and then in addition, they are in the "french immersion" portion of the good school. THis, by definition, requires some extra effort from parents, and weeds it out so that ONLY kids with relatively motivated parents are in all of their classes. It is noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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