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Race conversation on Mike and Mike (with Chris Carter) over Mark Cuban comments


codeorama

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On my way to school, I was listening to Mike and Mike and they had Chris Carter in for Golic and they mentioned comments made by Mark Cuban. 
He said something along the lines of if he sees a black kid in a hoodie, he switches to the other side of the street, then, if he sees a white guy with a shaved head and tattoos, he switches back to the other side.  He was making the point that he is guilty of prejudice as are most people.

 

 

The conversation ensued and I agreed with a lot of what they said but there were a few things that struck me as odd/annoying/uninformed, tbh, I'm not really sure, but I didn't agree with it.

 

Carter said he's had people knock on his door and ask if he was the owner.  Mike Greenburg said that has never happened to him.  The implication is that because Carter is black, there is an automatic assumption that he isn't or may not be the owner.  I'm white, I have that happen all the time.  Just yesterday, an alarm salesman knocks on the door, I answer and am asked if I'm the owner.  I wasn't offended. It never occurred that I should be offended.  They have to know if they are talking to the home owner in order to sell them something.

 

Next, they were talking about how Carter tells his High School players to cut their hair, look presentable etc... People judge you on your appearance.  This is not exclusive to black kids.  I heard this same thing over and over growing up.  Cut your hair, shave, dress appropriately.  This is nothing new.  Since when does being entitled to having a certain hair style equate to "culture" or race? (they were talking about dredlocks and braids).  I had a mullett in HS, I had to cut it when looking for a job or my dad would have beat me.  

 

There was more, but I think you get my drift.  Why is it only black kids in hoodies are scary? How do we know for sure that they are black if they have a hoodie on?  I teach HS, all the kids wear hoodies, white and black. They are not allowed to have the hoods on, we fight it every day.  (not because they are scary, but because they do it to try to hide their headphones).  

 

While I realize that because I'm not a minority, so therefore, I have not experienced some things that other people have. I get that, however, I really do think that the majority of people judge people on an individual level.  You can't tell a black kid to put his hoodie down because somehow, that has become racist.  You can't tell a black kid to pull his pants up because you're racist.  You can't tell a black kid to cut his hair... etc...  

 

Anyway, not trying to piss anyone off, I'm genuinely interested in seeing the conversation play out.  Curious to see both sides.

 

 


http://thebiglead.com/2014/05/21/mark-cuban-ill-cross-street-if-i-see-a-black-kid-in-a-hoodie-or-white-guy-with-a-shaved-head-and-tattoos/

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I've said this for years on this topic.

 

All people are prejudice. All of us. It is a defense mechanism.

 

Not to offend or discount a grouping of people, but we all do it.

 

It is not a negative trait.

 

Growing up as a military kid I am very aware of my surroundings and assess them all the time.

 

Now the racial divide is different , but still not necessarily negative. I personally try to not group people in terms of color. I group them in terms of behavior and intelligence.

 

I am sure there is more that I could say about it, but I am not fully awake at this moment. haha.

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Code,

your stories do highlight something, though. How the experiences people have, throughy life, color the way they may assess similar events.

I have no doubt at all that people who've been discriminated against, all their lives, without a doubt, see discrimination in situations where people who've lived a different life would not see things that way.

No doubt it "colors" my perceptions, as well.

Yeah, technically, I'm Native American. I'm a member of the Potawatomie tribe. But I'm a member because I'm 1/16 Native. I certainly don't look Native.

I am certain that no one has ever discriminated against me, for being Native. Because they don't know that I am. (Unless I tell them. And it's not exactly something that comes up in conversation.)

I recall reading a newspaper story, here in Gainesville, probably 10 years ago.

Local man, I think he's a professor here at UF, who is black, buys a new car. He takes the car home, and they have a party at his house, to welcome the new car. Several of his friends admire the new car, and one of them has several questions about the car, because he's been thinking of getting one, too. Professor explains to friend the differences between this model and some similar model. And mentions that the dealer has a similar model, on the lot, that the friend might be interested in.

They get in the car, and drive to the dealer, to look at this similar model. The dealer is closed (it's like 3 in the morning), but this way they can look at the car without any salesmen bothering them.

They go. They look. They leave.

A police officer sees people driving a new car, sticker in the window, off od a car dealer's parking lot, at 3 in the morning. Cop pulls in behind, and follows.

The car has a license plate, not a 30 day temporary tag. (In Florida, people actually kinda own their license plates. When they sell a car, they remove the plate, and are allowed to keep it, or transfer it to a new car. This person had done so. He took the plate off of the car he traded in, and put it on the new car.)

Cop runs the plate. The plate comes back as having been issued six months ago, and registered to a completely different car. (The car dealer hadn't sent the information to DMV, yet.)

Cop radios for backup, and two police cars pull the person over, to demand that he show that he owns the car he's driving.

Now, did the race of the driver affect this story? If the driver had been white, would things have happened differently?

I'm not at all sure that it's possible for people to be sure about the answer, either way.

But I have a really strong hunch that, if you were to survey 100 black people, and 100 white people, about whether race was a factor, you'd get very different opinions.

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Damn I wear hoodies all the time when it's cold. **** sometimes when it's nice out lol. Plus I'm tatted. But I'm white. So what does that mean about me? Lol.

 

It means you are Koolblue13.

 

Seriously, that is why you have to take a moment to assess the variables. Thus we are all prejudice.

 

I liked your other post because I can not stand when people act that way. Most of the time it is their own behavior that gets the response.

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Cool story Larry and I get your point. So, does that mean that black people can never be stopped and questioned?

GOSKINS, I agree 100%. I also feel like sometimes, people look for racism. It's expected rather than a all minority.

For example, what if I don't like someone? And they happen to be black? Am I racist? Obviously no, but some will assume that. I dislike people of all races and it's never based on race.

Hell, in the Stadium forum, if you don't like rG3, you are racist. It seems that way at times.

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I heard the show this morning, and my first thought when I listened to Carter talk about the whole thing was that he missed a gigantic portion of Cuban's comments. That or he ignored them.

 

he focused on the part about the black man. He didn't focus on the part about the white man. Cuban was showing that he is prejudiced, but not against one set of people or another. Just that he has preconceived notions of safety. To him, a black kid in a hoodie makes him nervous. On the same token, a white guy with a shaved head and tattoos makes him nervous.

 

To me, that's not racism. That's showing prejudice. Cuban made sure to include both black and white people in his comments, but part of his comments, the white person part, was kind of glanced over by both Carter and Greenburg. They virtually ignored that part.

 

People look for racism in places where it doesn't exist, and that does no favors to the race issue. There is plenty of reason to be upset about racism in this country, but overdoing it doesn't help to remove it from existence. The part about the home owner thing was so silly to me.

 

Racism exists, unfortunately. And its ugly. But not every issue is strictly a race issue. It's a perception issue, and every race comes with generalized preconceived notions, along with various traits about appearance. That's NOT to say it's right.

 

People in hoodies, regardless of color, don't strike me as any way. Many people wear them. But I don't think his point was about a hoodie. Or tattoos and hairstyles. It was about prejudice.

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I heard the show this morning, and my first thought when I listened to Carter talk about the whole thing was that he missed a gigantic portion of Cuban's comments. That or he ignored them.

he focused on the part about the black man. He didn't focus on the part about the white man. Cuban was showing that he is prejudiced, but not against one set of people or another. Just that he has preconceived notions of safety. To him, a black kid in a hoodie makes him nervous. On the same token, a white guy with a shaved head and tattoos makes him nervous.

To me, that's not racism. That's showing prejudice. Cuban made sure to include both black and white people in his comments, but part of his comments, the white person part, was kind of glanced over by both Carter and Greenburg. They virtually ignored that part.

People look for racism in places where it doesn't exist, and that does no favors to the race issue. There is plenty of reason to be upset about racism in this country, but overdoing it doesn't help to remove it from existence. The part about the home owner thing was so silly to me.

Racism exists, unfortunately. And its ugly. But not every issue is strictly a race issue. It's a perception issue, and every race comes with generalized preconceived notions, along with various traits about appearance. That's NOT to say it's right.

People in hoodies, regardless of color, don't strike me as any way. Many people where them. But I don't think his point was about a hoodie. Or tattoos and hairstyles. It was about prejudice.

Great post. You said what I was trying to say, but did a much better job

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I'll go a little further. Humans are pack animals. Were genetically programmed to think in terms of us and them. That doesn't have to be racially defined. We love the Redskins and hate the Cowboys. That's not about race. It's because we have defined our in group and out group.

A dog that grows up with a kitten thinks of it as family and not lunch. Animal work within a framework of us and them. Race is a variable, but it doesn't have to be a powerful or significant one.

Let's also not be naive about the reality of race though. Many are still infected with a very ugly way of thinking.

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Let's also not be naive about the reality of race though. Many are still infected with a very ugly way of thinking.

 

I don't think anyone in this thread has expressed that naivety. It's certainly an issue.

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Too often in these conversations, I think that it turns into white people telling black people that they are misreading their own experiences.

 

I have no earthly idea what it means to be black in America on a daily basis. I can experience it second-hand through my kids. I can read about it. I can try to understand it. But I can never fully understand it.

 

And drawing equivalencies about my own experience certainly doesn't work.

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I don't think anyone in this thread has expressed that naivety. It's certainly an issue.

Of course racism exists. I'm just saying I believe it's slowly going away. Donald Sterling is an 80+year old man. Of course he's racist. He lived in a different era. Not justifying it, he's still a dumbass in that he still has a 50-60's era mentality, but I did not grow up biased to believe that black people are inferior. There are stereotypes for blacks and whites that I don't like, but ultimately, I judge on an individual level.

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I love my black people, but sometimes I wish folks would stfu about "the struggle."  It's embarrassing, and folks like Cris Carter and Al Sharpton don't speak for all of us. 

 

Like Codeorama, I've been asked if I'm the homeowner, I was not offended in the slightest.  It's 2014 man, there are dangerous and crazy people of all ethnicities.  Big, bald white guy with tatts or a black dude in a hoody, I'm gonna keep my eye on you until we've walked past you.  It's natural.

 

People make conscious decisions every day about how they're perceived.  Somebody wants to sag their jeans off their ass and wear a hoody down over their face, I'm gonna be aware of what they're doing if they get close to me on a dark street.  same with the big bald white guy.  They chose to dress like that, so deal with it if they don't like being judged based of appearences.

 

Yes, there are certain struggles of being a black man that whites wont' understand.  I've been pulled over dozens of times and had my car searched by drug dogs twice, I've been followed around a store by a sales associate to see if I'm stealing at least 50 times, I posted months ago about how the Costo lady checked our receipt for nearly 15-20 seconds when several groups of white people in front of us barely had their receipt glanced at.  **** sucks, but I'm used to it.  It's not that big of a deal. 

 

So somebody tell Cris Carter to stfu, as if he can relate to the "black man struggle."  Yeah, I'm sure it was so hard for him being pampered all the way through high school and then being a millionaire by the time he was 25.  He's been on soooo many interviews where he felt he was qualified but didn't get the job because he's black.  Cris Carter knows all about that.  :rolleyes:

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Youngchew... Awesome post. It does suck that some people have decided to profile you. Screw them. Hopefully, they are heading toward extinction. But, as a white guy, I just want the opportunity to treat you as a person. If I don't like your sagging pants, it's not because you are black (white kids do it equally at the school where it teach). You can hate my mullet and I won't think you are a racist (no, I don't have one now). ;)

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Too often in these conversations, I think that it turns into white people telling black people that they are misreading their own experiences.

 

 

 

Honestly, I haven't seen that here, either.

 

People have their own experiences and they are going to interpret them the way they interpret them.

 

The issue in this thread isn't necessarily that. It's simply the idea that Cuban made comments about prejudice about both black and white people. The way the conversation progressed on the radio show virtually ignored the involvement of the white man and focused on the black man. When in reality, two very different types of people were stereotyped. It was not a race issue in this case. It was a perception/prejudice issue.

 

There are certainly racial issues I can't understand. But listening to people and caring goes a long way in having an idea of their thought processes, even if I don't truly understand it. And I won't and certainly can't understand it as I don't live it. But I can gain valuable insight with an open mind.

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I can't stand Cris Carter. As he displayed numerous times again this morning, he goes through life with an enormous chip on his shoulder.

It's almost like listening to the typical bad-ass adolescent who has to constantly make it clear to everyone around him that he is NOT to be messed with.

It's no wonder he picks out what could be construed as being 'against him', because to Carter that is all it ever is,,  either you're against him, or you're with him. There is no such thing as an innocent question like "Do you own the house", because Carter will view it as a challenge, a slight, or a diss to be put down and stamped out.

 

Other times during the show, he made comments to make it clear to anyone listening that he is a hair trigger, ready to beat your ass at the slightest provocation. (Story about AAA baseball players fighting in dugout leads Carter to say "In the locker room it's different.. in the street if anyone touches my ear, I will take them out."

In the street.

what is he, 15? What if someone steps on his shoes in a bar? Will he take them out? 

About five minutes later, in the midst of the conversation, he said something that could be construed as "mature" or even "normal adult" by a  mature person, or as a "sign of weakness" by the typical knucklehead teenager who must carry his front... and so of course, he stopped mid-sentence to once again be clear that if anyone disrespected him, he was not going to be anyone's fool.

I guess he was worried about Greenberg starting a fight?

 

These sorts of motivations are fine when you're young and a competitive athlete. 

But damn,, he's over 40 and in the Hall of Fame. He's succeeded, his youthful chips and motivations paid off.

 

It's way past time to grow up.

 

~Bang

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Yes, there are certain struggles of being a black man that whites wont' understand.  I've been pulled over dozens of times and had my car searched by drug dogs twice, I've been followed around a store by a sales associate to see if I'm stealing at least 50 times, I posted months ago about how the Costo lady checked our receipt for nearly 15-20 seconds when several groups of white people in front of us barely had their receipt glanced at.  **** sucks, but I'm used to it.  It's not that big of a deal. 

 

 

This is a remarkable paragraph.

 

Is it not a big deal because you are used to it? Or do you just not let stuff bother you?

 

Because I'm a high strung neurotic and being followed by store security on a regular basis would eventually cause me to be in a psychatric hospital.

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This is a remarkable paragraph.

Is it not a big deal because you are used to it? Or do you just not let stuff bother you?

Because I'm a high strung neurotic and being followed by store security on a regular basis would eventually cause me to be in a psychatric hospital.

When I was in college, I caught shoplifters for the department store Hess's. I loved that job. It was competitive, fun and paid really good.

I profiled. Not by race though. You have to profile to be honest. When I worked in the Newport News Va store, I tended to catch more teens - 25 year olds of all races. When in that store, I profiled that age group and watched their eyes closely. The eyes give it away. When I worked in the store in Chesapeake Va, it was more professional shoplifters. They would hit and run. I had to profile anyone that came in and looked around, not at the clothes, but for cameras and sales associates. They tended to be more 25-45 years old. In both stores, I caught exceptions to the rule, but you still profile.

Over the 5 years that I did this, I caught an engineer from the ship yard that had a 6 figure salary, a deputy police chiefs wife, and a school board member. Lots of great stories, lots of fights.

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Too often in these conversations, I think that it turns into white people telling black people that they are misreading their own experiences.

 

I have no earthly idea what it means to be black in America on a daily basis. I can experience it second-hand through my kids. I can read about it. I can try to understand it. But I can never fully understand it.

 

And drawing equivalencies about my own experience certainly doesn't work.

 

There was an article somebody posted, a while back, in the "Name Change" thread. 

 

The author was a white guy, living in Wyoming (or some place near there).  Works in a very large Indian reservation. 

 

He explains that, in Wyoming, the first two digits of your license plate identifies which county the plate was issued in.  He owns two cars, one of which has a plate from (whatever county it is, that almost entirely Indian reservation.) 

 

He says it fairly common, when he's driving the pickup with the plates from the reservation county, for state troopers to pull u-turns and pull him over, and then, as they're walking towards the truck, and they see he's white,  they smile and they wave him off without even asking for license of registration.  Just a kinda "My mistake.  thought you were an Indian." 

 

Now that story says a lot, to me.  Because it's not the story of one person announcing how he thinks the world is operating the way he perceives it.  If, say, a black guy says he's constantly be discriminated against, then it's easy for me, as a white guy, do say that my experience is different, and racism is incredibly rare, and the black guy must just be imagining it. 

 

This guy, (the guy with two license plates), to me, is much more of a scientific experiment.  this represents what happens when you change one and only one variable (the license plate).  And he says it's common. 

 

----------

 

I think it's easy for a white guy to walk around the world, today, and say that racism mostly doesn't exist.  I mean, I go out to eat, and the rest room doesn't have a sign on it that says "Whites only". 

 

OTOH, if I go to a restaurant, and every single person waiting tables is a white female, every single person in the kitchen is a black or Hispanic male, and every single person wearing a tie is a white male, how many white folks will even be aware that there's discrimination going on, here?  How many will notice? 

 

----------

 

Something recent, that, to me, speaks to this notion that racism is this incredibly rare thing, maybe not quite eliminated, but almost. 

 

I was recently digging up something about Loving v. Virginia, the SC decision which ruled it unconstitutional for states to forbid interracial marriage.  Started with Wikipedia. 

 

And in the Wiki, it mentioned that, although the decision rendered state laws on this subject invalid, that the state laws continued to make interracial marriage illegal for some time after the ruling.  That the last state to remove said laws from their books was Alabama, when the voters voted 60-40 to remove the law from the state's books, in 2000. 

 

Now, think about that. 

 

in the year 2000, not 1950, 40% of the voters in the state of Alabama, voted to keep it illegal for black folks to marry white women.  Even though they knew that the law wouldn't actually have any effect. 

 

I would assert that racism is a whole lot more common in our society, than a whole lot of people want to admit.  That people have learned not to publicly express their racism as such.  They've learned to watch their language.  To kind of hint at it, or to just keep their mouths shut. 

 

But it's still there.  When people are in situations where they figure that nobody will point out how evil they're being, (like, in a voting booth), when they don;t have to censor themselves, it can still come out. 

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This is a remarkable paragraph.

 

Is it not a big deal because you are used to it? Or do you just not let stuff bother you?

 

Because I'm a high strung neurotic and being followed by store security on a regular basis would eventually cause me to be in a psychatric hospital.

 

As far as the cops, when I said that folks can't be mad for being looked at a certain way, that applied to me as well LOL.  I drove a crown victoria police package, all white and 5% limo tint windows, and loud obnoxious exhaust pipes.  As my mom called it, "typical DC drug dealer's car."  LOL.  I asked for it by driving a thug car, so I can't be mad at cops pulling me over.  Even though I had  a military ID and am always polite with cops, about 50% of the time they've been total dicks to me.  Oh well.  Now that I"m older, don't drive like an asshole, and drive a camry instead of a tinted out crown vic, i no longer get pulled over LOL.

 

Being followed in the store, that's just become second nature to me.  It happened a lot more while in NC & SC (shocker), but not nearly as much in more progressive areas Seattle and Denver.  Also, when I was younger I dressed like an idiot, which was asking for attention.  Not that I walk around in linen pants and Birkenstocks these days, but I dress age appropriate for a 32 year old, and people don't look at me like I'm a threat or even just an idiot.

 

As far as the general public is concerned, people are just people.  Some folks aren't comfortable around blacks or flat out don't like them.  That's fine, it's a free country.  I know black people that say they hate white people, and I think they're morons.  The county we live in south of Denver is less than 1% black, so we are often the only black folks wherever we go on this side of town.  But we carry ourselves like normal adults so nobody pays us any mind.

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